Vocal recording questions.

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Danny Danzi
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Re:Vocal recording questions. 2011/07/23 09:56:04 (permalink)
mike_mccue


If you want to make it cut and dry I suggest someone throw those preamps in front of a Baritone Sax and hit record.

:-)

Maybe close mic a grand piano played in concert style as second test.


Making two channels sound the same doesn't even begin to suggest that the two channels offer the same range of capability.


If there was some investigation about what the two choices can not do similarly it might be easier to appreciate why some designers continue to specify an adequate budget while making a state of the art preamp.

This test serves as good explanation of why you can might be able to get by with what ever you have... but the results do not negate the easy to appreciate benefits of buying better gear if you can afford it.

best,
mike

I definitely, and whole heatedly agree with the above. However, if we tested stuff your way, it would only prove that on certain instruments...it could make a difference. Again, does that merit a mic pre that costs thousands more to a home studio owner? Maybe a full blown studio owner...but even there, if we did the test you speak of, do you think it would be impossible to achieve the end results with a cheap pre after you go through the mix-down? Do you really think the difference would be so drastic that the cheap pre would fall that short even though a good print was executed? LOL! Honest Mike, I'm seriously not trying to give you a hard time or be confrontational. I just can't see how 2 good prints using 2 different pre's will sound drastically different that would merit so many thousands more in price.
 
The same with soundcard converters. I think that's another can of worms that is overly hyped. Sure, there are differences...and sure, there are MAJOR differences between a Sh!tBlaster and an RME or an Apogee. But are those differences as drastic as us recording on a Fostex cassette deck verses a 24 track reel to reel? The sound on a Realtek vs RME. Layla or Apogee won't be bigger in sound size...it will just have a "different" texture which for some people, will be subjective as to which sounds better. But all too easy people are won over by names and price...this is where people need to wake up a bit. (present company excluded) 
 
Here's something funny I'll share with you. I have a Layla 24/96 and an RME Fireface 800 as well as whatever Tascam uses in their DM 4800 console...which I don't use at the moment. I get great results from the Layla and the RME. The RME isn't quite as warm as the Layla to my ears. Nothing drastic, I just get a bit more top out of the RME.
 
Now, when compared to my Realtek in my internet box...for certain sounds, would you believe the converters on that crappy thing literally sound better to me? Prime example....a mic'd cab vs a direct speaker sim sound. The speaker sim sound going through the Realtek smokes both the RME and the Layla at 16/44. Yet, mic'd cabs do not sound anywhere near as good going through the Realtek. That said, the differences aren't so drastic that I'd not use the Realtek in a pinch if my other stuff burned up. It's limited with ins and outs and can only record at 16/44, but honest when I tell you, it does a great job that is acceptable to me for some things. Try it for yourself sometime....the differences will scare you because....there aren't as many as you may think. :) Granted, going to 24/48 and higher, the Realtek can't compare. But at 16/44...it hangs right with the others. Honest when I tell you...try it yourself and see. :)
 
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:Vocal recording questions. 2011/07/23 13:04:41 (permalink)
Danny Danzi
  Sure, there are differences...and sure, there are MAJOR differences between a Sh!tBlaster and an RME or an Apogee. But are those differences as drastic as us recording on a Fostex cassette deck verses a 24 track reel to reel? The sound on a Realtek vs RME. Layla or Apogee won't be bigger in sound size...it will just have a "different" texture which for some people, will be subjective as to which sounds better. But all too easy people are won over by names and price...this is where people need to wake up a bit. (present company excluded) 
 
 
 
-Danny


  As a wine broker said: "We don't sell tastes, we sell conceptions and images of tradition, quality and lifestyle."

A sound created with an SB and cheap microphone by a 18 year old amateur can as easily become a sought after brand sound as one created with top notch gear by seasoned pros.

Tapping on the side of a rusty barrel can be the one needed, not tapping on the side of an xxx years old Amati cello.

In average better technical quality/higher price brings better results, maybe, but not every time, not as a rule. If you don't know the history of a sound, how can you analyze it otherwise than you either like it or you don't?

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jamescollins
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Re:Vocal recording questions. 2011/07/24 01:53:53 (permalink)
Thanks for chiming in here, Jeff, I was just about to PM you because I thought this might interest you! I'm going to have to disagree with you on the validity of the mixed version comparisons, for reasons which I explained earlier. I gave myself around 15-20min on each mix to do some quick level automation, EQ, compression and add a touch of ambience. The reason I EQ'd them differently is because they both sounded different to begin with! I provided the mixed versions so I could present them in a 'more finished' state, so that if one raw version sounded unacceptable, could it be saved using processing and effects? But I also realised people would be interested to hear the raw versions too, so I provided those as well. And of course, in the raw versions the vocals are everywhere dynamically, but if I were to rectify that, then it wouldn't be raw still! 

And yep, should've provided wavs for sure - laziness on my part! I have a guy who handles my website, and I should have got him to put them up available for download. But at least I uploaded the files in wav form so they weren't encoded twice.

I'm also going to have to disagree with you on the matter of variables in the test. As I have mentioned several times already, I am fully aware that this is not an exhaustive or conclusive test - I had a free morning so decided to have some educational fun! However, I did take great care in placing each mic so that each was picking up the same area on the guitar. I didn't want to use a splitter, because it was not just the preamps I was wanting to compare. I wanted to compare a total budget setup, with a total 'professional' setup - mics, preamps and converters.

Mike, regarding my choice of instrument to use in this - I chose voice and acoustic guitar because I know the guitar very well, and felt that I would be able to hear differences better on an instrument with which I am intimately familiar (afterall, the test was primarily for my benefit!). I almost did the test playing a classical piece on my classical guitar, a style which is much more exposing. But I thought, as I planned to share the test with you guys, most people would want to hear a vocal too, and as most record popular music, I went with Cannonball, because my arrangement still allows for more delicate guitar playing than just strumming chords, and is more in line with most people's interests here I think. And as for your suggestion that a grand piano or a sax would show up the differences more clearly, I'm not sure I entirely agree with you here. The guitar is a very complex instrument, and adequate, I think, to show up strong and weak points in equipment used to capture it.

It may sound like I'm trying to devalue high end gear, but this is certainly not the case! After all, remember I am the one who bought all this stuff! I just think, as Danny said, that we might be getting a little too eager to try and prove a preconceived idea. Yes, the test has flaws. Yes the test could have been much more comprehensive. But I still believe the test has merit. Just listen to what is there and make a judgement! No use saying that if I had done this or that, then the outcome would be different! This is a real world scenario - voice and guitar is a very common combination. Ask yourself how these recordings compare, not how other recordings might!

I'm going to put up the results tomorrow, but not many have actually taken the survey, so if you haven't done, please do so!

Finally, there have been very good points raised here about what this 'test' did not test, and as this has been a lot of fun for me, I will definitely conduct another more exhaustive test incorporating many of the ideas put forth here, and make the 48/24 files available for download. In the meantime though, let's hear what you think of this test!

PS. Mike - no Germaniums here 
post edited by jamescollins - 2011/07/24 01:58:31

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Jeff Evans
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Re:Vocal recording questions. 2011/07/24 02:52:18 (permalink)
Yes James I am being a bit nit picky and you have done a resonable test and thanks for taking the time to do it. I know how much time this sort of thing involves.

I have done a fair bit of AB testing in my long past and I always believe that there should only be one variable and no more. With your test can you see that one could argue that there are too many variables eg mike positions, pres, converters, DAW's and the mix.

Back in my old Hi Fi days we used to compare for example different magnetic pickups. So we set up two identical turntables except the pickup cartridges were the only thing that were different. Obviously we had a two copies of the disc as well to compare and they were very well matched as well. Here is the interesting thing though. We found that if one turntable had a different tone arm to the other the test was not valid because one tone arm sounded different to the other. The SME arm had the best sound on the planet. (It took the Brits to make the best tonearm in the world) Not only that we found the one headshell  had a different sound to the other as well. Yes headshell. The SME headshell also had the best sound. Nicer top end from SME headshells and tonearms. I bet you would not think that would influence things too much but it did. So if we had a different tone arm and headshell on one of the turntables then there were three variables not one. So if one of the pickups sounded a bit worse than the other then maybe it was the pickup, arm or headshell. Which?
(BTW the ultimate pickup was the American Shure V15 type III so the Americans can make nice things too! Although the European Ortofon SL 15Q was also a serious contender!!!)

But thanks again for doing it and organising it. I am with Danny on this and that I don't think you have to shellout a huge amount of money to get a great mic pre these days. For the price of an expensive mic pre you could buy a new computer with Software and an audio interface thrown in! I know what I would rather have.

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Re:Vocal recording questions. 2011/07/24 04:21:53 (permalink)
Jeff, I totally get where you're coming from, and agree with you 100%. But my aim wasn't to identify differences between particular pieces of gear (eg. preamp) as in a traditional A/B comparison such as you describe, but rather to record the same performance with 2 completely different setups, with a vast price gap between the two. I think we're just looking at it in 2 different ways. I simply wanted to answer the question, "can I make a pro-sounding recording on budget gear?"...

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Re:Vocal recording questions. 2011/07/24 06:12:14 (permalink)
I just heard the mixes, and first of all, great job there. Just loved it.

Funnily enough, I preferred different versions of the raw and the processed tracks....
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Re:Vocal recording questions. 2011/07/24 08:32:38 (permalink)
I thought A had slightly more presence.  Nice playing / singing by the way. 
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Philip
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Re:Vocal recording questions. 2011/07/24 19:19:55 (permalink)
Despite the awesome performances, James, the 1st one hooks ... probably because it is compressed-congealed to my ears with less dynamics.

Please isolate the vocs or guitars when you demo your signal chains as my ears cannot validate anything except that the 1st mix per se feels 'mastered' to my crony ears ... especially the vocs.  As per Danny, there are post-source methods of attaining sweet compression and mastering.

Danny, I used a Neve Portico Pre ($1200) for all my 1st album mixes (about 14); it was unmerciful in allowing my sibs, though far better than my RME ff 400 low-impedance pre input ... a hideous mistake for my vox world (even with a U87).

But, like you stated, the Avalon can ruthlessly process the signal at the source ... for better or worse.  Yet it couldn't be as bad as my former double-mic-ing, early reflections, and hyper-dynamic poor mic technique

... or lately, like when I sing with my eyes closed and my mouth bangs into the pop-filter repeatedly while trying to whip up some subconsious emotives --hahaha!  Such a clumsy freak I am while inspired.

I'm glad this thread turned into a battleground; it proves to me that each of us has been critically hurt in the vox world and are honestly seeking better means of vox inspiration.  Doubtless, as James has proven, we can come up with temp solutions via multiple takes and techniques. 

Again ... temp solutions, IMHO, JMO.  But, I must learn to keep the vox relatively 'less-dynamic' at the source.

Philip  
(Isa 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD)

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timidi
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Re:Vocal recording questions. 2011/07/24 19:42:48 (permalink)
Ok, so which is which?

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Re:Vocal recording questions. 2011/07/25 00:39:41 (permalink)
screw up
post edited by jamescollins - 2011/07/25 00:58:11

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Re:Vocal recording questions. 2011/07/25 01:09:11 (permalink)
Here are the results of the survey, not that they matter much, especially as only 27 people completed it, but it's interesting nonetheless! There is also the rather large variable of people's different listening environments - I think someone even mentioned a laptop speaker which is slightly unnerving!

Question 1 - Which mixed version do you prefer?
A - 11 (42.31%)
B - 10 (38.46%)
No preference - 3 (11.54%)
Could not hear a difference - 2 (7.69%)

Question 2 - Which raw version do you prefer?
A - 6 (24%)
B - 8 (32%)
No preference - 9 (36%)
Could not hear a difference - 2 (8%)


Question 3 - After hearing both the mixed and raw versions of the song, would you say that the quality of gear used in the 'worse' sounding mix is of unacceptable quality if you wanted to record a hit single?
Yes - 2 (7.69%)
No - 24 (92.31%)

Question 4 - Does your preferred version sound $11000 better than the other?
Yes - 0
No - 27





post edited by jamescollins - 2011/07/25 01:53:23

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Re:Vocal recording questions. 2011/07/25 01:15:59 (permalink)
OK, let's put you all out of your misery – both the mixed and raw versions 'A' were recorded using the high end setup:

Version A
Avalon AD2022
Lynx Aurora 16/LT-USB
Neumann KM184 on neck of guitar
1967 Neumann U87 on body of guitar
Blue Kiwi on vocals

Version B
Cakewalk UA-25EX
Shure KSM109 on neck of guitar
Rode NT1-A on body of guitar
Rode NT1-A on vocals

Actually, version A is probably worth more than what I said, because of the '67 U87, but it's irrelevant really.

So here are my thoughts – hopefully I can articulate them clearly so that I'm not misunderstood:

In this situation, I would say that having expensive gear is definitely not an essential pre-requisite to creating commercial-quality recordings. We are all familiar with the 'point of diminishing returns' theory, and I think that, when close-mic'ing instruments in this way, this point is very low in the price range – I'm quite certain that a good player and engineer could make a beautiful sounding pop album using only equipment from version B.

And even those who did have a preference between the two versions, I would say that if those preferences were based solely on tonality (eg. mix 'A' sounds a little too muddy, or mix 'B' is more present) then they can be ignored. Reason being, that in this test, consistency between versions was paramount, not the overall outcome, meaning I could not position each microphone so that it was capturing the best sound that it could. So if I was making a record using the cheap gear, and it sounded a little muddy, then I would move the mics around until I achieved a balanced sound. I would then further enhance and correct it using EQ. Do you see what I mean? I don't think differences in frequency balance should be considered here, because those can be rectified easily.

Rather ask, was there an overall fidelity issue with either of the version 'B' mixes? No! Through further tweaks in microphone placement and EQ, could I achieve a beautifully balanced tone with the cheap gear? Yes! Would mix 'B' stand up against other commercially released material? Yes! Did the high end setup sound vastly superior to the budget gear? No!

Now it may sound as though I'm bashing the expensive gear, which I am not, I'm merely pointing out that it is not necessary to go out and buy $11k worth of gear to make a good pop record. Am I annoyed that my expensive gear didn't stand out as a clear winner? No, it absolutely did not come as a surprise! I was fully aware when I bought this stuff that it would not transform some of the sounds which I record – so why did I buy it?

Firstly, equipment like the Avalon pre is just beautifully engineered – I'm a total sucker for build quality – touch an Avalon knob, and you're hooked! But in relation to sound, I know from experience that the equipment used for version 'A' would perform noticeably better in different recording contexts. For example, I know that the Aurora converters and the Avalon pre are going to capture a much better 'real ambience' in a hall. They reproduce more apparent depth when recording large ensembles or recording the sound of a good concert hall. I also know that the KM184 has got a much better off-axis response than the Shure, same with the U87 vs. the NT1-A. But this is really only relevant when mic'ing an ensemble, a drum kit, or using them as room mics. The high end gear also has better transient response and reproduction, but you would really have to be listening specifically for this in an A/B test to notice it. And finally, the Avalon pre has a lot of headroom, and performs very well up until crunch time!

So as Mike pointed out earlier, yes, I was playing to the cheap gear's strengths, or rather, not exposing its weaknesses. But for probably 95% of the recording population, the context in which I tested the equipment is spot on, that is, close mic'ing a single instrument. But having said that, even though the differences between the gear will be more apparent in say, an orchestral recording, I still do not believe that those recordings using the cheap gear will be unacceptable.

So to conclude, I think this comparison supports my initial response to the OP, that his problems achieving a good vocal recording do not lie with his gear. We are surrounded by marketing hype - sales of pro-audio gear is a huge business - remember that! I can say with 100% certainty, and will fight anyone to the death to argue this (!!) that the absolute largest contributor to the sound of any recording is the playing. The gear you use is responsible for such a tiny percentage of the overall sound, that I think many just need to forget about it! I loved an article Paul White wrote a few months ago in SOS, saying that next time we think about upgrading our gear, we should start with upgrading ourselves!

I hope people don't take this the wrong way, because I'm really not an arrogant **** I promise , but some have mentioned that they liked my playing. Firstly – there you have it! The first thing that stands out in a recording is the playing. Secondly, playing well doesn't just happen! I was fortunate enough to make a living as a concert guitarist for about a year in the UK when I finished my studies, but to get to that point, there were literally tens of thousands of hours of practice which preceded. Everybody has heard it a lot, but there really are no shortcuts for hard work and practice. Spending an ungodly amount of money on gear is not going to help poor playing – I could post examples of clients who have recorded through my choicest pieces of gear, but were not great players, and guess what? They still sounded bad! If they released those recordings, the public wouldn't be thinking, “oh my, what beautiful equipment he must have used in this recording” - the first and only impression they get is, “man, this guy sucks!”

In short, forget about your gear, it's almost insignificant. If you're a novice and are dissatisfied with your recordings, the worst thing you can do is to go out and buy new gear – I promise you it won't change a thing (unless you're recording on a Fisher-Price tape recorder from the 80's!). When you feel as though you are a competent engineer, then, and only then, should you go out and spend a fortune on equipment.

It may seem as though I don't care about fidelity – nothing could be further from the truth. I crave gorgeous recordings, and I have bought some very nice gear to add that final 5%. I'm just trying to put some perspective on it – there are other far more imminent factors which you should consider before you start blaming your gear.

Finally, these are of course just my opinions, but they are opinions formed from experience, not speculation.

This has been fun – flame away!
post edited by jamescollins - 2011/07/25 03:16:38

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Danny Danzi
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Re:Vocal recording questions. 2011/07/25 05:29:46 (permalink)
jamescollins


OK, let's put you all out of your misery – both the mixed and raw versions 'A' were recorded using the high end setup:

Version A
Avalon AD2022
Lynx Aurora 16/LT-USB
Neumann KM184 on neck of guitar
1967 Neumann U87 on body of guitar
Blue Kiwi on vocals

Version B
Cakewalk UA-25EX
Shure KSM109 on neck of guitar
Rode NT1-A on body of guitar
Rode NT1-A on vocals

Actually, version A is probably worth more than what I said, because of the '67 U87, but it's irrelevant really.

So here are my thoughts – hopefully I can articulate them clearly so that I'm not misunderstood:

In this situation, I would say that having expensive gear is definitely not an essential pre-requisite to creating commercial-quality recordings. We are all familiar with the 'point of diminishing returns' theory, and I think that, when close-mic'ing instruments in this way, this point is very low in the price range – I'm quite certain that a good player and engineer could make a beautiful sounding pop album using only equipment from version B.

And even those who did have a preference between the two versions, I would say that if those preferences were based solely on tonality (eg. mix 'A' sounds a little too muddy, or mix 'B' is more present) then they can be ignored. Reason being, that in this test, consistency between versions was paramount, not the overall outcome, meaning I could not position each microphone so that it was capturing the best sound that it could. So if I was making a record using the cheap gear, and it sounded a little muddy, then I would move the mics around until I achieved a balanced sound. I would then further enhance and correct it using EQ. Do you see what I mean? I don't think differences in frequency balance should be considered here, because those can be rectified easily.

Rather ask, was there an overall fidelity issue with either of the version 'B' mixes? No! Through further tweaks in microphone placement and EQ, could I achieve a beautifully balanced tone with the cheap gear? Yes! Would mix 'B' stand up against other commercially released material? Yes! Did the high end setup sound vastly superior to the budget gear? No!

Now it may sound as though I'm bashing the expensive gear, which I am not, I'm merely pointing out that it is not necessary to go out and buy $11k worth of gear to make a good pop record. Am I annoyed that my expensive gear didn't stand out as a clear winner? No, it absolutely did not come as a surprise! I was fully aware when I bought this stuff that it would not transform some of the sounds which I record – so why did I buy it?

Firstly, equipment like the Avalon pre is just beautifully engineered – I'm a total sucker for build quality – touch an Avalon knob, and you're hooked! But in relation to sound, I know from experience that the equipment used for version 'A' would perform noticeably better in different recording contexts. For example, I know that the Aurora converters and the Avalon pre are going to capture a much better 'real ambience' in a hall. They reproduce more apparent depth when recording large ensembles or recording the sound of a good concert hall. I also know that the KM184 has got a much better off-axis response than the Shure, same with the U87 vs. the NT1-A. But this is really only relevant when mic'ing an ensemble, a drum kit, or using them as room mics. The high end gear also has better transient response and reproduction, but you would really have to be listening specifically for this in an A/B test to notice it. And finally, the Avalon pre has a lot of headroom, and performs very well up until crunch time!

So as Mike pointed out earlier, yes, I was playing to the cheap gear's strengths, or rather, not exposing its weaknesses. But for probably 95% of the recording population, the context in which I tested the equipment is spot on, that is, close mic'ing a single instrument. But having said that, even though the differences between the gear will be more apparent in say, an orchestral recording, I still do not believe that those recordings using the cheap gear will be unacceptable.

So to conclude, I think this comparison supports my initial response to the OP, that his problems achieving a good vocal recording do not lie with his gear. We are surrounded by marketing hype - sales of pro-audio gear is a huge business - remember that! I can say with 100% certainty, and will fight anyone to the death to argue this (!!) that the absolute largest contributor to the sound of any recording is the playing. The gear you use is responsible for such a tiny percentage of the overall sound, that I think many just need to forget about it! I loved an article Paul White wrote a few months ago in SOS, saying that next time we think about upgrading our gear, we should start with upgrading ourselves!

I hope people don't take this the wrong way, because I'm really not an arrogant **** I promise , but some have mentioned that they liked my playing. Firstly – there you have it! The first thing that stands out in a recording is the playing. Secondly, playing well doesn't just happen! I was fortunate enough to make a living as a concert guitarist for about a year in the UK when I finished my studies, but to get to that point, there were literally tens of thousands of hours of practice which preceded. Everybody has heard it a lot, but there really are no shortcuts for hard work and practice. Spending an ungodly amount of money on gear is not going to help poor playing – I could post examples of clients who have recorded through my choicest pieces of gear, but were not great players, and guess what? They still sounded bad! If they released those recordings, the public wouldn't be thinking, “oh my, what beautiful equipment he must have used in this recording” - the first and only impression they get is, “man, this guy sucks!”

In short, forget about your gear, it's almost insignificant. If you're a novice and are dissatisfied with your recordings, the worst thing you can do is to go out and buy new gear – I promise you it won't change a thing (unless you're recording on a Fisher-Price tape recorder from the 80's!). When you feel as though you are a competent engineer, then, and only then, should you go out and spend a fortune on equipment.

It may seem as though I don't care about fidelity – nothing could be further from the truth. I crave gorgeous recordings, and I have bought some very nice gear to add that final 5%. I'm just trying to put some perspective on it – there are other far more imminent factors which you should consider before you start blaming your gear.

Finally, these are of course just my opinions, but they are opinions formed from experience, not speculation.

This has been fun – flame away!

+1,000,000!!!!!!!!!! Absolutely perfectly stated James! I can't see anyone flaming you at all for what you said other than those select few that are sold more on hype, price and names than delivering great recordings. What sad is, most of those people with pompous gear attitudes can't put up anything that sounds like it was done using the best gear in the world. I've said it a million times....I can record and mix something using Sonar and a stock Dell computer with a Realtek that will sound very good and completely acceptable using all cheaper stuff. I do it while working on test projects all the time. To add to your awesome post I'd like to bring up a few more things.
 
You mentioned the art of playing well. Even that can be sorted to an extent. I thought Nirvana had some pretty decent production and absolutely hated every minute of Cobain's performances. Cool aggression, nifty lyrics but the furthest from a "good guitar player" in my mind. Quite a few guys fit this bill really. Neal Young isn't a great guitar player either...but he always gets a good sound. So there are ways to make things sound good even when artists are at a disadvantage from certain skills they may be lacking.
 
A lot of this comes from what you hear through your gear to make the right calls as well. If our monitors are giving us false representations, the sound is always going to be a bit off regardless of what gear we use. I've even heard great players sound horrible due to the lack of knowledge from the engineer or producer that mixed the album. I'm sure we can name several that fall into both catagories. At any rate, the way you delivered this test was how I judged it...the way you explained it here was how I felt about it as well. Great test, thank you for doing it and for sharing your opinion as well. :)
 
-Danny

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jamescollins
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Re:Vocal recording questions. 2011/07/25 05:54:34 (permalink)
Thanks a lot Danny! And yes, a good producer can certainly work with an average player to achieve a good recording - I do it all the time, and I'm sure we can all name countless very successful bands where the players are less than average. In a lot of music, technical proficiency is not the main focus at all. 

Buuut, the key here is that after a lot of work with the producer, the performance was no longer sub-par, but had been worked into something that was satisfactory. So the fact remains - play like an amateur, and you'll sound like an amateur!

I'll have three fingers of Glenlivet, with a little bit of pepper... and some cheese.
 
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I Am The Quarry
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Re:Vocal recording questions. 2011/07/25 08:51:14 (permalink)

James - was the Damien Rice cover a deliberate choice for this test ? I'm sure you know that the recording of the album O was very much a
guerrilla effort, and I'm pretty sure the gear you used for mix 'A' was considerably more expensive than the set up Damien used on the original recording.
It's clear that music can be created that people will love and listen to using gear that does not have to cost the earth.



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jamescollins
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Re:Vocal recording questions. 2011/07/25 09:04:44 (permalink)
No I had no idea that O was a guerilla effort - do you have any more info on this? I chose Cannonball because my arrangement involves a lot of finger picking, so felt that it would present an opportunity for nuances to either be lost or captured.

I'll have three fingers of Glenlivet, with a little bit of pepper... and some cheese.
 
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Vocal recording questions. 2011/07/25 09:05:08 (permalink)
Good stuff James!

Thanks for posting the details.


best regards,
mike



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Re:Vocal recording questions. 2011/07/25 09:41:03 (permalink)
James - in short - most of the album was recorded at various locations in Dublin (friends houses) and Paris. He used a mobile recording set up - which I think was Korg hard disk recorder, but open to correction on that.

From an interview circa 2010

"Back when Juniper had been offered a record deal, Rice had contacted his second cousin David Arnold. "My grandmother, when she heard I was recording, told me about this second cousin I had who was a film composer", he recalls. "I just called him for advice on something, and we got on really well, and then he said 'Keep in touch'."
Sometime in 2000, as the songs for I began coming together, Rice did just that. "Basically I had recorded a couple of demos and - because he was curious about what I was doing - I sent them over to him. And he said, "Well, if you want, I can get you some recording equipment". And so he did - he bought me a couple of mics and some pre-amps, and gave me a couple of grand for expenses, and off I went".
Now that he had a mobile studio, Rice set about recording the songs properly. "We recorded all over the place. Which I liked: I was really particular at the time about where to record things. Like, I knew I wanted to record Eskimo in my friends' apartment in Paris because they loved the song so much. So I took my little mobile studio and went to Paris. I went through the metro with all of these microphone stands hanging off me and recording gear, sweating by the time I got to their house, and just recorded it there, and then came home. So it was recorded in lots of bits and places, but basically houses, places I was living or friend's houses. Dublin, mostly".
Did you have any sense then of just how powerful the album was going to be?
"No, not at all. And, it's so funny, even going 'no, not at all' almost means that I'm agreeing with you that it was powerful. I don't, 'cos I don't even have a notion about it being anything - except that at the time I felt like I was just making one record, that I just wanted to get this out of my system, make a record and then leave it at that, you know".
What, make one album and then finish with music forever?
"Yeah, just leave the music - just make one record and be done with it. Because I felt like I didn't fit within the music scene. And, at the time I remember noticing that the bigger songs didn't work because I was recording at home in bedrooms and stuff - big songs didn't sound good on the little studio. So the songs that came up as sounding good were all these slow, acoustic, mellow songs.
One day I remember I was sitting with Lisa and I discovered this new thing on the little recorder - it was an 8-track thing and I discovered a new function on it where you could play one song after another. So I lined up a bunch of songs, pressed play, and myself and Lisa sat in the garden and listened, you know. We were chatting with a friend or something, I remember not paying that much attention to it, but just realising that I had really enjoyed listening back to what had been coming out of the speakers. And that was the first moment that I realised "oh, we have a record".


From http://www.absolutepunk.n..howthread.php?t=1508821

Gwyn
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jamescollins
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Re:Vocal recording questions. 2011/07/25 09:58:57 (permalink)
Thanks Mike, and thanks Gwyn - interesting stuff

I'll have three fingers of Glenlivet, with a little bit of pepper... and some cheese.
 
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Philip
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Re:Vocal recording questions. 2011/07/25 11:21:32 (permalink)
+1 all

And the quest for vox perfection, inspiration, etc. ... when will it end?

About the best I could say for mix A is it felt more instantly-finished, fwiw.

I have to agree that crunching and Avalon-Pre with Voxformer is bad for my health, and sometimes requires cleaning with Waves X-noise remover (the dreaded a/c pink noise, etc.) and to seek 'other' solutions.

Lately I confess I've had fidelity issues with even the Avalon, but I'm not going back to the Portico-Neve just yet ...

Anyone have better suggestions to prevent de-inspiring carpel tunnel syndrome while enveloping raw vox takes from intermediate level singers (AKA, all of us)? 

Personally, I'd give the Compressor/EQ-Pre 50% (OK 40%) toward achieving an inspiring vocal takeAnd I know all you guys sing at my intermediate level +/-.  Hahaha!

IOWs, let me keep my Avalon for utmost inspiration, like so many vox artists understand ... and keep my filthy techno-hands as mouse-free as possible!  Let me sing and hear you sing!

Philip  
(Isa 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine, are in their feasts: but they regard not the work of the LORD)

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