Waves Boycott!!

i believe this post should be moved to the Off-Topic forum.

There are many Sonar users that are suffering with the Waves unethical WUP program. Why should it be moved to off-topic ?

The majority of Sonar users can't afford to purchase Waves plugins....that's why it's off topic.

Seriously, though. I read thru the links you provided. I had to go to the waves site, to figure out what "WUP" is by the way. "Waves Update Plan". So if you have this rampage of protest, can you briefly summarize what the problem is?

I think it's a big misunderstanding of what the WUP covers ... the Wave Update Plan
allows you to upgrade to new versions of existing plug-ins which you already own.
Waves introduced new plugins (IR-1 and Z-Noise) and bundled them in the
Diamond bundle. If you buy the Diamond Bundle today, you get them, if you have the
WUP from a previous bundling, then you don't .. hence the problem.

As I read the WUP agreement, that's exactly what it says .. you're entitled to new versions
of your existing products. People are angry because they believe if Waves re-bundles
things, they should get what the new bundle is. Of course, I'm sure they would be
equally upset if Waves took something away in a future re-bundling too.


jeff

The more difficult they make it to be legal the more folks are going to use cracked copies, even those who bought a license ! There may be folks out there that have unopened boxes of Wavs plugins sitting around because they have the cracked one installed and just want the legal one on hand to keep them out of trouble if the $&!# hits the fan..

After all if you run a studio and charge by the hour who needs the risk of service interuption when the cracked copy just works every time.

The problem is if they force folks to go and look for the cracks, they now know where to find them, how they work, and that they are reliable. For some it will only be a matter of time before they stop buying plugins of any brand. In this way the actions of one vendor can increase the popluatiry of cracks and hurt the entire industry. I don't much care if Wavs hurts their own business but I fear what it could mean for the future of plugin development.

Actually, it's significantly more sinister than that.

According to the old waves licence agreement, (under which many people bought their waves plugins), if you upgrade your system or replace a hard drive, you need to re-authorize waves, which means you have to contact waves and get an authorization code from them. This is a PITA, but this is how PACE works, and most people had some idea of what they were getting into.

But now waves has changed the rules-- they no longer allow reauthorization except through the Waves Update Package (WUP), which you have to pay for.

So let's say you payed $2500 for a waves bundle of some sort last year or whatever. And let's say your hard drive failed. So you buy a new hard drive, reinstall your software, restore old projects from backup, and call up waves (as required) to get your copy of waves reauthorized so it will work on the new hard drive. Waves will now instruct you to buy a $400+/- upgrade package or else live without waves.

Like, your copy of waves will never work again unless you pay to upgrade it. Doesn't matter that you have the disks, the reciept, the manual, that you filled out the registration card and wear a waves t-shirt everyday. Doesn't matter that you've been way overpaying them for years and years as a loyal customer.

Doesn't matter that you only want to use the same version you were running previously, and that you only want to use it to finish the projects that you were previously working on that are already loaded with currently non-functional waves plugins.

Basically, your $2500 version of waves "expires" whenever an update comes out. You either pay for the update, or you can never again install waves. This is vastly different from merely "dropping support for obsolete versions" or anything like that.

Thank you yep. You have narrowed down the ethical dilemma nicely.
I would only add that I (like many others) had an active WUP plan when Waves did away with hard disk validation, and could have converted to ILOC for free.
However, Waves did not inform their active WUP customers of this policy change, allowing them to convert their method of software validation for free. I wonder why....
Imagine my frustration when I found out about this Waves policy change on the gearslutz forum only a month after my WUP expired !
Why wouldn't Waves announce these changes to their registered customers that used hard disk authorization ! I get all thier new product emails.
I had to talk to sales because the tech support link won't even work for you if your WUP is not current (minimum $459 for my software). Sales simply said "Sorry, but that's policy".
It's policy to email sales promotions but not notification of policy changes that will ultimately cost the customer large sums of unneccesary money.
What a deceptive practice.

and it's perfectly on-topic to discuss plugins on a computer audio forum, I think.

Just for clarification, I totally agree. I was making a joke in my original post. The way the aministrators determine what is on topic and off topic in the Sonar forum is really a joke in my opinion. This is one that definately effects a lot of Sonar users that use Waves plugins, and I was glad to see the post in the Sonar forum, so that I was made aware of it. Generally speaking here's what I notice as to what is "off topic". It's when you post a message in a negative manor, especially when it has to do with bashing another software vendor. How many times did the Sony root kit fiasco topics get moved and shut down? The funny thing is that the same discussions where happening in the Sony forums, and they remained there. Just because, one or two so called "users" determine a subject is "off topic", it doesn't mean that this viewpoint is shared by everyone. It's all hypocritical behavior that only tarnishes the users perception of the Cakewalk administrators. Can anyone say, "hey let's partner up with the company responsible for completely destroying another software vendor, and act like we don't remember anything about it (ie Gibson/Opcode) and let those posts alone, but let's make sure we move topics out of the Sonar forum concerning another 3rd party software vendor product used in Sonar where it might get the most exposure, when a user brings the concern to light. Seems pretty hypocritical to me. This is not the type of behavior that brings a forum community together, it's one that divides it against each other. But hey, it's Cakewalk's forum right? They can do whatever they think is "right" and "wrong", it doesn't mean we have to agree with it. In the end, they're the ones who look like the horses behind.

Thanks for the further details Yep.

ORIGINAL: yep

ORIGINAL: jmarkham
...As I read the WUP agreement, that's exactly what it says .. you're entitled to new versions
of your existing products. People are angry because they believe if Waves re-bundles
things, they should get what the new bundle is...

Actually, it's significantly more sinister than that.

According to the old waves licence agreement, (under which many people bought their waves plugins), if you upgrade your system or replace a hard drive, you need to re-authorize waves, which means you have to contact waves and get an authorization code from them. This is a PITA, but this is how PACE works, and most people had some idea of what they were getting into.

But now waves has changed the rules-- they no longer allow reauthorization except through the Waves Update Package (WUP), which you have to pay for.

So let's say you payed $2500 for a waves bundle of some sort last year or whatever. And let's say your hard drive failed. So you buy a new hard drive, reinstall your software, restore old projects from backup, and call up waves (as required) to get your copy of waves reauthorized so it will work on the new hard drive. Waves will now instruct you to buy a $400+/- upgrade package or else live without waves.

Like, your copy of waves will never work again unless you pay to upgrade it. Doesn't matter that you have the disks, the reciept, the manual, that you filled out the registration card and wear a waves t-shirt everyday. Doesn't matter that you've been way overpaying them for years and years as a loyal customer.

Doesn't matter that you only want to use the same version you were running previously, and that you only want to use it to finish the projects that you were previously working on that are already loaded with currently non-functional waves plugins.

Basically, your $2500 version of waves "expires" whenever an update comes out. You either pay for the update, or you can never again install waves. This is vastly different from merely "dropping support for obsolete versions" or anything like that.

Cheers.

OWCH!

That would make me phone the baseball bat boys.

That's awful.

Kind regards

Dave Rich

Sorry about the problems you are having. I haven't upgraded my Waves 3.x Gold Bundle and probably never will. There are just too many good or better options with better prices/service.

Best,

urock

ORIGINAL: jmarkham

Basically, your $2500 version of waves "expires" whenever an update comes out. You either pay for the update, or you can never again install waves. This is vastly different from merely "dropping support for obsolete versions" or anything like that.

only if you're using challenge/response authorization .. if you're using iLok .. it's not a problem.

Actually, I'm pretty sure you still need WUP to authorize with iLok. And since waves will not allow you to convert from challenge/response to iLok without having WUP, it's kind of six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Cheers.

Hi deiseldave-
I can't believe I found this thread! I very recently had a run-in w/Waves due to a reinstall of my entire audio machine. I know it's long, but I wanted to include my correspondence with them to make you aware of how rediculous it got. Man, it got me fired UP!!
regards,
Eric
Here goes: (backwards chronologically, of course)
_________________________________________________________
Hi Barry,
What other companies charge this for their services that I'm not asking for? Phone support is usually by the minute...You are forcing me to take a service, and that's what you are not seeing. I don't need tech support, I need to re-authorize. But you can't help me anyway because you've changed methods...Other companies are charging for their services WHEN THEY ARE RENDERED.
When I re-installed Sonar (or Windows, or Antares, or UAD, or drivers) Cakewalk didn't say, "Well, that'll be $90 more dollars to reinstall. No, it's for our support, not for the reinstall." You've essentially taken my software from me until I pay your money and play by your new rules.
I am a full-time studio and will be uninstalling your product. At least in my case, and everyone I will tell about this, you have not created cashflow, but hindered it. Why would I want to continue with a company that tries to put this much control on it's customers? It looks as though Waves has a "party mantra" that they are unwilling to shift off of for a minute to maybe get a glimpse of what reality is in this situation. Be a customer for just a second and tell me this isn't riddled with inequity. The included Sonitus plugs in Sonar 5 are easily as good as the Ren, and the only reason why I was using yours was because I paid for them didn't want to waste my money. Now as it turns out, I have anyway.
I do hope the market votes with their dollars in this case, because you've lost a customer and I'll be sure to let folks know what they are getting into when they "buy" (or in Waves dictionary meaning "lease until you change the rules") your good sounding software. Sure, if they get into it now, it's no trouble...just get an iLock and you're all set....UNTIL 2009 when Waves introduces the all-new "iLock II-Tiger/XP Platinum Edition" and you can only reinstall if you get the new iLock system. For only $99...
Again, this is just not right, but it doesn't look like we are going to accomplish anything more. I do hope you read and try to understand what I'm saying and experiencing from the decisions that Waves is making. I like the concept of the native plugs, but I have to tell you, the UAD product is amazing (I have the Precision Limiter, and there's no reason to get the L3 or C1 now since the PEQ and P-Multi-band came out). Come to think of it, that's probably where your cashflow went... ;-(
Cheers,
Eric
________________________________________________________________________
On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 11:40:41 -0500 "Barry Cohen" < barry@waves.com <mailto:barry@waves.com>> writes:
Hi Eric,
By paying for WUP you not charged for as you wrote 'A', 'B' and 'C' but provided with special bonuses. Again, you are NOT being charged for these bonuses. You are being charged for receiving technical support and maintenance with WUP and nothing more.
Charging for technical support and its various features is not something that can be found in Waves only. Other companies also charge for their services. Your WUP current price being only $90 makes it actually very hard for me to understand the problem.
With or without WUP – the option to provide you with another Disk authorization is technically impossible as our system changed to accommodate the new needs and various features. Disk authorizations are available only for single plug-ins that were released prior to 2005. All the later single plug-ins do not have this options available any longer. Moreover, technically speaking – ALL Waves bundles are not available for Disk Authorizations and Reauthorization any more. This is not a decision someone in his high office makes for good or ill but a technical parameter. A copy protection mechanism which we cannot override.
Please let me know if you will need any further information or assistance. Please include a copy of our on going correspondence in your mail.
Thank you for your cooperation,
Best regards,
Barry Cohen
Waves Sales
Waves Audio Ltd.
___________________________________________
From: Eric [mailto:@juno.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 6:19 PM
To: Barry Cohen
Subject: Re: FW: Eric requests special upgrade
Good morning, Barry,
I appreciate your response in such a timely manner. I'm trying to be keep a cool head, here, because it feels and seems to be an injustice, and that's hard for me to swallow. Why?
Because your company is only willing to give me the response to a challenge as long as I pay for it's bundle with other products I don't want or need. This is coersion and it is unethical. You've got a customer that needs his product back that is rightfully his, and you're standing there with the code I need to unlock it and saying "You can have it back if you spend more money on A, B, and C".
If you guys need more cashflow, there are other ways to solve that problem. The other companies I cited earlier have somehow figured out a way to let their customers do re-authorizations AND maintain there position in the market.
I will ask you again, PLEASE just let me re-authorize what I have so I can continue working on projects into which I've inserted the Ren products. It's going to be alot of unnecessary work if you can't help me out.
Thanks again for your consideration in this matter,
Eric
__________________________________________________________________
On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 13:39:27 -0500 "Barry Cohen" < barry@waves.com <mailto:barry@waves.com>> writes:
Hi Eric,.
I'm sorry if you feel this way Sir. But Waves is not charging you money just "because of a windows clean reinstall",in your own words. Waves is charging ALL its users for maintenance each year. This Maintenance program provides Waves users with the following:
1) Technical support (since Waves is no longer supporting Disk authorizations you will need to authorize to iLok, just like you would if you went to a different company. Since this is a Tech Support service you will need to be under maintenance).
2) Version update support
3) Additional plugins to your bundle. (in the case of the RenMaxx bundle the additional plug-ins are the IR-L native, the Tune Lite native and the Ren-Axx Premium compressor plugin.)
You are charged with $90 for the ability to not only authorize your bundle to an iLok (which will prevent such satiations as this current one from happening again. iLok authorization is a one time process) but also provide you with more benefits for your money. Benefits that's worth much more than your current WUP cost.
We have to charge money not only for our products but also for maintenance. Simply put, WUP helps ensure that Waves' sound will be there tomorrow for all of us – customer and company. Waves is not getting any wealthier from the maintenance program – quite the contrary – it maintains us.
We created WUP to, preliminary, address the challenge that faces any software user and manufacturer-how to keep your tools working for you over the long haul. This has many faces to it:
You need to know that when you change platform versions or computer operating systems that you can use your Waves plug-ins-without having to buy a new bundle at full price every time there's a change.
We need to retain enough engineers to write, test, and debug the mountains of code required to keep Waves current on Mac, Windows, and all the DAWS and formats we support. It's like aiming at a dozen moving targets at the same time, and to accomplish it we need an army of engineers.
Moreover, a lot of man-power is put to make sure that technical and customer service is there for customers. This is at a time when more and more companies are out-sourcing their tech Support resulting in a lesser service and less than happy customers. This always back lashes. Still, keeping our customer service at home has its cost, as you would imagine.
To meet these challenges we created WUP, a program that offers you these benefits:
A cost precisely tailored to your usage. Instead of charging a high flat rate for updates, we wanted to keep rates as low and as fair as possible. That's why WUP is calculated on exactly what you own and for how long you've owned it. This is also why if you skip WUP for a year, the cost will be higher when you re-enter the program.
Complete updates with all the new features. With WUP, you receive updates needed to run your Waves plug-ins on new platforms. But you also get any major new release of your software produced during your coverage, so you'll always have the newest features. For example, IR-1 Reverb owners covered by WUP receive IR-1 V2, which includes a new feature that allows you to capture your own impulse responses to create your own custom reverbs.
New plug-ins added to your bundle-free. When you're covered by WUP, any new plug-in added to your bundle is yours free-and these are often major releases. For example, Diamond bundle owners covered by WUP this year received the L3 Multimaximizer multi-band limiter (the successor to our legendary L2 Ultramaximizer) for free. That's an $1,800 value.
Customer and Technical support. Almost around the clock Sunday through Friday and even on holidays.
And again, keep in mind that WUP helps ensure that Waves will be there tomorrow for all of us.
-----------------------------------
Please let me know if you will need any further information or assistance. Please include a copy of our on going correspondence in your mail.
Thank you for your cooperation, patience and understanding.
Best regards,
Barry Cohen
Waves Sales
Waves Audio Ltd.
____________________________________________________________________________
From: Eric[mailto:@juno.com]
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 8:15 PM
To: Barry Cohen
Subject: Re: FW: Eric requests special upgrade

Thanks, Barry, but I just found out Waves is trying to make me pay $90 or so more just to reauthorize what I have because of a windows clean reinstall. If this ends up being the case, I will regrettably no longer be a Waves customer.
Thanks for you time,
Eric

Sounds like somebody's gonna get a WUP-ping!

I'm a programmer, most software gets around this by claiming that you haven't bought anything you've simply bought a licence or lease of the software. Of course someone who shells out $1000 dollars doesn't consider that a lease.

I hadn't come across copy protection with music software until I bought Drum Kit from Hell 2 which uses Native Instruments' Komptakt and requires you to run a special programme and send them a key, ie get permission from them to run the programme. I was going to buy their sampler Kontakt(?) but now that I am aware of their techniques I won't - and I have told them. All that old hardware I bought still keeps running, I don't need anyones permission to use it.

ORIGINAL: yep
sense of exclusivity, like Louis Vuitton handbags-- they're the most expensive because they're the best, and the best because they're the most expensive.

Intersting... so, do you suppose that a Waves Diamond package might increase my self-esteem and sense of confidence?

ORIGINAL: Brett
All that old hardware I bought still keeps running, I don't need anyones permission to use it.

Yet. :O

Things like Receptor are blurring the lines, though.

Dave after this thread was moved why would you recreate the thread in the Sonar forum

Because more people view the Sonar forum, and I want to unite as many people against Waves as I can.
I am a Sonar user, and feel that I have a right to solicit support for this cause on the Sonar forum. Especially since there are other Sonar/Waves users who are also concerned.