Waves Boycott!!

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deiseldave
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2006/01/10 10:20:16 (permalink)

Waves Boycott!!

For those of you who are unaware of how Waves are screwing thier supportive customer base, please see links below.
http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?t=54112&page=1&pp=30
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=2031164
Fight the evil Waves !!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have submitted damaging but accurate reviews of Platinum Bundle and IR-1 on Harmony Central. They are not viewable yet (as of 01/10/06 10:00AM EST), but when they are, here is the link:
http://www.harmony-central.com/Software/Data/Waves/
Please email me for any class action lawsuit info, other valid review sites, or any other battle strategies.
It would be nice to have some major magazines put the word out on these crooks.
If you don't actively fight evil, you inactively support it.
#1

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    Guest
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/10 10:25:47 (permalink)
    i believe this post should be moved to the Off-Topic forum.
    #2
    deiseldave
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/10 11:24:25 (permalink)
    i believe this post should be moved to the Off-Topic forum.


    There are many Sonar users that are suffering with the Waves unethical WUP program. Why should it be moved to off-topic ?
    #3
    Rednroll
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/10 12:17:09 (permalink)
    There are many Sonar users that are suffering with the Waves unethical WUP program. Why should it be moved to off-topic ?


    The majority of Sonar users can't afford to purchase Waves plugins....that's why it's off topic.

    Seriously, though. I read thru the links you provided. I had to go to the waves site, to figure out what "WUP" is by the way. "Waves Update Plan". So if you have this rampage of protest, can you briefly summarize what the problem is?
    #4
    daverich
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/10 12:32:39 (permalink)
    so...

    you want me to NOT pay exorbitant prices for "ok" software with stupid copy protection?

    Ok, I think I can do that for you ;)

    Kind regards

    Dave Rich

    For Sale - 10.5x7ft Whisperroom recording booth.

    http://www.daverichband.com
    http://www.soundclick.com/daverich
    #5
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/10 12:56:53 (permalink)
    I think it's a big misunderstanding of what the WUP covers ... the Wave Update Plan
    allows you to upgrade to new versions of existing plug-ins which you already own.
    Waves introduced new plugins (IR-1 and Z-Noise) and bundled them in the
    Diamond bundle. If you buy the Diamond Bundle today, you get them, if you have the
    WUP from a previous bundling, then you don't .. hence the problem.

    As I read the WUP agreement, that's exactly what it says .. you're entitled to new versions
    of your existing products. People are angry because they believe if Waves re-bundles
    things, they should get what the new bundle is. Of course, I'm sure they would be
    equally upset if Waves took something away in a future re-bundling too.


    jeff

    #6
    yep
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/10 13:17:09 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Rednroll

    There are many Sonar users that are suffering with the Waves unethical WUP program. Why should it be moved to off-topic ?


    The majority of Sonar users can't afford to purchase Waves plugins....that's why it's off topic.



    There are a lot of us who use both Sonar and Waves. Yes, it's expensive software, but it's no less expensive for users of ProTools or Nuendo or Samplitude or whatever, and it's perfectly on-topic to discuss plugins on a computer audio forum, I think.

    Waves has gotten more and more arrogant over the years, and it's ironic and unfortunate that as some genuine competition has started to emerge in the world of high-end plugins, waves has started to gouge their own loyal customers rather than compete fairly.

    Waves has been coasting along on reputation for awhile. Their plugins are excellent, but they are not the only game in town anymore.

    Cheers.
    #7
    ohhey
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/10 13:33:57 (permalink)
    The more difficult they make it to be legal the more folks are going to use cracked copies, even those who bought a license ! There may be folks out there that have unopened boxes of Wavs plugins sitting around because they have the cracked one installed and just want the legal one on hand to keep them out of trouble if the $&!# hits the fan..

    After all if you run a studio and charge by the hour who needs the risk of service interuption when the cracked copy just works every time.

    The problem is if they force folks to go and look for the cracks, they now know where to find them, how they work, and that they are reliable. For some it will only be a matter of time before they stop buying plugins of any brand. In this way the actions of one vendor can increase the popluatiry of cracks and hurt the entire industry. I don't much care if Wavs hurts their own business but I fear what it could mean for the future of plugin development.
    post edited by ohhey - 2006/01/10 13:45:42
    #8
    yep
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/10 13:45:12 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: jmarkham
    ...As I read the WUP agreement, that's exactly what it says .. you're entitled to new versions
    of your existing products. People are angry because they believe if Waves re-bundles
    things, they should get what the new bundle is...


    Actually, it's significantly more sinister than that.

    According to the old waves licence agreement, (under which many people bought their waves plugins), if you upgrade your system or replace a hard drive, you need to re-authorize waves, which means you have to contact waves and get an authorization code from them. This is a PITA, but this is how PACE works, and most people had some idea of what they were getting into.

    But now waves has changed the rules-- they no longer allow reauthorization except through the Waves Update Package (WUP), which you have to pay for.

    So let's say you payed $2500 for a waves bundle of some sort last year or whatever. And let's say your hard drive failed. So you buy a new hard drive, reinstall your software, restore old projects from backup, and call up waves (as required) to get your copy of waves reauthorized so it will work on the new hard drive. Waves will now instruct you to buy a $400+/- upgrade package or else live without waves.

    Like, your copy of waves will never work again unless you pay to upgrade it. Doesn't matter that you have the disks, the reciept, the manual, that you filled out the registration card and wear a waves t-shirt everyday. Doesn't matter that you've been way overpaying them for years and years as a loyal customer.

    Doesn't matter that you only want to use the same version you were running previously, and that you only want to use it to finish the projects that you were previously working on that are already loaded with currently non-functional waves plugins.

    Basically, your $2500 version of waves "expires" whenever an update comes out. You either pay for the update, or you can never again install waves. This is vastly different from merely "dropping support for obsolete versions" or anything like that.

    Cheers.
    post edited by yep - 2006/01/10 13:49:16
    #9
    deiseldave
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/10 14:58:19 (permalink)
    Actually, it's significantly more sinister than that.

    According to the old waves licence agreement, (under which many people bought their waves plugins), if you upgrade your system or replace a hard drive, you need to re-authorize waves, which means you have to contact waves and get an authorization code from them. This is a PITA, but this is how PACE works, and most people had some idea of what they were getting into.

    But now waves has changed the rules-- they no longer allow reauthorization except through the Waves Update Package (WUP), which you have to pay for.

    So let's say you payed $2500 for a waves bundle of some sort last year or whatever. And let's say your hard drive failed. So you buy a new hard drive, reinstall your software, restore old projects from backup, and call up waves (as required) to get your copy of waves reauthorized so it will work on the new hard drive. Waves will now instruct you to buy a $400+/- upgrade package or else live without waves.

    Like, your copy of waves will never work again unless you pay to upgrade it. Doesn't matter that you have the disks, the reciept, the manual, that you filled out the registration card and wear a waves t-shirt everyday. Doesn't matter that you've been way overpaying them for years and years as a loyal customer.

    Doesn't matter that you only want to use the same version you were running previously, and that you only want to use it to finish the projects that you were previously working on that are already loaded with currently non-functional waves plugins.

    Basically, your $2500 version of waves "expires" whenever an update comes out. You either pay for the update, or you can never again install waves. This is vastly different from merely "dropping support for obsolete versions" or anything like that.


    Thank you yep. You have narrowed down the ethical dilemma nicely.
    I would only add that I (like many others) had an active WUP plan when Waves did away with hard disk validation, and could have converted to ILOC for free.
    However, Waves did not inform their active WUP customers of this policy change, allowing them to convert their method of software validation for free. I wonder why....
    Imagine my frustration when I found out about this Waves policy change on the gearslutz forum only a month after my WUP expired !
    Why wouldn't Waves announce these changes to their registered customers that used hard disk authorization ! I get all thier new product emails.
    I had to talk to sales because the tech support link won't even work for you if your WUP is not current (minimum $459 for my software). Sales simply said "Sorry, but that's policy".
    It's policy to email sales promotions but not notification of policy changes that will ultimately cost the customer large sums of unneccesary money.
    What a deceptive practice.
    #10
    Phrauge
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/10 16:02:29 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: daverich

    so...

    you want me to NOT pay exorbitant prices for "ok" software with stupid copy protection?

    Ok, I think I can do that for you ;)

    Kind regards

    Dave Rich


    Same here. Only I'd add "intrusive, buggy and possibly DAW crippling" to "stupid copy protection".
    #11
    Rednroll
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/10 16:26:33 (permalink)
    and it's perfectly on-topic to discuss plugins on a computer audio forum, I think.


    Just for clarification, I totally agree. I was making a joke in my original post. The way the aministrators determine what is on topic and off topic in the Sonar forum is really a joke in my opinion. This is one that definately effects a lot of Sonar users that use Waves plugins, and I was glad to see the post in the Sonar forum, so that I was made aware of it. Generally speaking here's what I notice as to what is "off topic". It's when you post a message in a negative manor, especially when it has to do with bashing another software vendor. How many times did the Sony root kit fiasco topics get moved and shut down? The funny thing is that the same discussions where happening in the Sony forums, and they remained there. Just because, one or two so called "users" determine a subject is "off topic", it doesn't mean that this viewpoint is shared by everyone. It's all hypocritical behavior that only tarnishes the users perception of the Cakewalk administrators. Can anyone say, "hey let's partner up with the company responsible for completely destroying another software vendor, and act like we don't remember anything about it (ie Gibson/Opcode) and let those posts alone, but let's make sure we move topics out of the Sonar forum concerning another 3rd party software vendor product used in Sonar where it might get the most exposure, when a user brings the concern to light. Seems pretty hypocritical to me. This is not the type of behavior that brings a forum community together, it's one that divides it against each other. But hey, it's Cakewalk's forum right? They can do whatever they think is "right" and "wrong", it doesn't mean we have to agree with it. In the end, they're the ones who look like the horses behind.

    Thanks for the further details Yep.
    post edited by Rednroll - 2006/01/10 16:31:35
    #12
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/10 16:57:33 (permalink)
    Basically, your $2500 version of waves "expires" whenever an update comes out. You either pay for the update, or you can never again install waves. This is vastly different from merely "dropping support for obsolete versions" or anything like that.


    only if you're using challenge/response authorization .. if you're using iLok .. it's not a problem. they've been
    very clear about dropping challenge/response due to all the hell it caused with XP2, bluescreens and
    all the other hell. it's why digi dumped it a long time ago.

    i guess they could offer a one time switch .. but .. i did this a long time ago and there was no charge
    because i was under the WUP. maybe i just got lucky....

    jeff
    #13
    daverich
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/10 17:16:31 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: yep

    ORIGINAL: jmarkham
    ...As I read the WUP agreement, that's exactly what it says .. you're entitled to new versions
    of your existing products. People are angry because they believe if Waves re-bundles
    things, they should get what the new bundle is...


    Actually, it's significantly more sinister than that.

    According to the old waves licence agreement, (under which many people bought their waves plugins), if you upgrade your system or replace a hard drive, you need to re-authorize waves, which means you have to contact waves and get an authorization code from them. This is a PITA, but this is how PACE works, and most people had some idea of what they were getting into.

    But now waves has changed the rules-- they no longer allow reauthorization except through the Waves Update Package (WUP), which you have to pay for.

    So let's say you payed $2500 for a waves bundle of some sort last year or whatever. And let's say your hard drive failed. So you buy a new hard drive, reinstall your software, restore old projects from backup, and call up waves (as required) to get your copy of waves reauthorized so it will work on the new hard drive. Waves will now instruct you to buy a $400+/- upgrade package or else live without waves.

    Like, your copy of waves will never work again unless you pay to upgrade it. Doesn't matter that you have the disks, the reciept, the manual, that you filled out the registration card and wear a waves t-shirt everyday. Doesn't matter that you've been way overpaying them for years and years as a loyal customer.

    Doesn't matter that you only want to use the same version you were running previously, and that you only want to use it to finish the projects that you were previously working on that are already loaded with currently non-functional waves plugins.

    Basically, your $2500 version of waves "expires" whenever an update comes out. You either pay for the update, or you can never again install waves. This is vastly different from merely "dropping support for obsolete versions" or anything like that.

    Cheers.


    OWCH!

    That would make me phone the baseball bat boys.

    That's awful.

    Kind regards

    Dave Rich

    For Sale - 10.5x7ft Whisperroom recording booth.

    http://www.daverichband.com
    http://www.soundclick.com/daverich
    #14
    ed_mcg
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/10 17:55:53 (permalink)
    iLok requires the products to be under WUP. From the Waves web site:
    iLok authorization for Waves products is available for version 4.0 and higher, and applies to Waves bundles covered by Waves Update Plan (WUP) only. A product not covered by WUP or that its WUP has expired is not entitled to an iLok authorization – iLok authorizations are possible only while WUP is valid for your product(s).


    I agree with their position that the new plugins are not covered by WUP, but I do think there are issues with the authorization scheme/restrictions.
    post edited by ed_mcg - 2006/01/10 17:58:54
    #15
    urock
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/10 18:12:43 (permalink)
    Sorry about the problems you are having. I haven't upgraded my Waves 3.x Gold Bundle and probably never will. There are just too many good or better options with better prices/service.

    Best,

    urock
    post edited by urock - 2006/01/10 18:16:45
    #16
    Dave Modisette
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/10 22:44:30 (permalink)
    As I said in a previous post, I was never interested in Waves plugins because of the Pace protection. After reading about their new tactics, I don't think I'd ever want to do business with them.

    Dave Modisette ... rocks a Purrrfect Audio Studio Pro rig.

    http://www.gatortraks.com 
    My music.
    ... And of course, the Facebook page. 
    #17
    yep
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/11 10:06:33 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: jmarkham

    Basically, your $2500 version of waves "expires" whenever an update comes out. You either pay for the update, or you can never again install waves. This is vastly different from merely "dropping support for obsolete versions" or anything like that.


    only if you're using challenge/response authorization .. if you're using iLok .. it's not a problem.


    Actually, I'm pretty sure you still need WUP to authorize with iLok. And since waves will not allow you to convert from challenge/response to iLok without having WUP, it's kind of six of one, half a dozen of the other.

    Cheers.
    post edited by yep - 2006/01/11 10:12:15
    #18
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/11 17:18:25 (permalink)
    that's what i meant .. if you were an iLok user .. then changing disks or hosts or whatever
    doesn't cause this particular problem.

    anyways ... it's a strange situation...

    jeff
    #19
    Soundweaver
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/11 23:38:39 (permalink)
    Hi deiseldave-
    I can't believe I found this thread! I very recently had a run-in w/Waves due to a reinstall of my entire audio machine. I know it's long, but I wanted to include my correspondence with them to make you aware of how rediculous it got. Man, it got me fired UP!!
    regards,
    Eric
    Here goes: (backwards chronologically, of course)
    _________________________________________________________
    Hi Barry,
    What other companies charge this for their services that I'm not asking for? Phone support is usually by the minute...You are forcing me to take a service, and that's what you are not seeing. I don't need tech support, I need to re-authorize. But you can't help me anyway because you've changed methods...Other companies are charging for their services WHEN THEY ARE RENDERED.
    When I re-installed Sonar (or Windows, or Antares, or UAD, or drivers) Cakewalk didn't say, "Well, that'll be $90 more dollars to reinstall. No, it's for our support, not for the reinstall." You've essentially taken my software from me until I pay your money and play by your new rules.
    I am a full-time studio and will be uninstalling your product. At least in my case, and everyone I will tell about this, you have not created cashflow, but hindered it. Why would I want to continue with a company that tries to put this much control on it's customers? It looks as though Waves has a "party mantra" that they are unwilling to shift off of for a minute to maybe get a glimpse of what reality is in this situation. Be a customer for just a second and tell me this isn't riddled with inequity. The included Sonitus plugs in Sonar 5 are easily as good as the Ren, and the only reason why I was using yours was because I paid for them didn't want to waste my money. Now as it turns out, I have anyway.
    I do hope the market votes with their dollars in this case, because you've lost a customer and I'll be sure to let folks know what they are getting into when they "buy" (or in Waves dictionary meaning "lease until you change the rules") your good sounding software. Sure, if they get into it now, it's no trouble...just get an iLock and you're all set....UNTIL 2009 when Waves introduces the all-new "iLock II-Tiger/XP Platinum Edition" and you can only reinstall if you get the new iLock system. For only $99...
    Again, this is just not right, but it doesn't look like we are going to accomplish anything more. I do hope you read and try to understand what I'm saying and experiencing from the decisions that Waves is making. I like the concept of the native plugs, but I have to tell you, the UAD product is amazing (I have the Precision Limiter, and there's no reason to get the L3 or C1 now since the PEQ and P-Multi-band came out). Come to think of it, that's probably where your cashflow went... ;-(
    Cheers,
    Eric
    ________________________________________________________________________
    On Tue, 3 Jan 2006 11:40:41 -0500 "Barry Cohen" < barry@waves.com <mailto:barry@waves.com>> writes:
    Hi Eric,
    By paying for WUP you not charged for as you wrote 'A', 'B' and 'C' but provided with special bonuses. Again, you are NOT being charged for these bonuses. You are being charged for receiving technical support and maintenance with WUP and nothing more.
    Charging for technical support and its various features is not something that can be found in Waves only. Other companies also charge for their services. Your WUP current price being only $90 makes it actually very hard for me to understand the problem.
    With or without WUP – the option to provide you with another Disk authorization is technically impossible as our system changed to accommodate the new needs and various features. Disk authorizations are available only for single plug-ins that were released prior to 2005. All the later single plug-ins do not have this options available any longer. Moreover, technically speaking – ALL Waves bundles are not available for Disk Authorizations and Reauthorization any more. This is not a decision someone in his high office makes for good or ill but a technical parameter. A copy protection mechanism which we cannot override.
    Please let me know if you will need any further information or assistance. Please include a copy of our on going correspondence in your mail.
    Thank you for your cooperation,
    Best regards,
    Barry Cohen
    Waves Sales
    Waves Audio Ltd.
    ___________________________________________
    From: Eric [mailto:@juno.com]
    Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 6:19 PM
    To: Barry Cohen
    Subject: Re: FW: Eric requests special upgrade
    Good morning, Barry,
    I appreciate your response in such a timely manner. I'm trying to be keep a cool head, here, because it feels and seems to be an injustice, and that's hard for me to swallow. Why?
    Because your company is only willing to give me the response to a challenge as long as I pay for it's bundle with other products I don't want or need. This is coersion and it is unethical. You've got a customer that needs his product back that is rightfully his, and you're standing there with the code I need to unlock it and saying "You can have it back if you spend more money on A, B, and C".
    If you guys need more cashflow, there are other ways to solve that problem. The other companies I cited earlier have somehow figured out a way to let their customers do re-authorizations AND maintain there position in the market.
    I will ask you again, PLEASE just let me re-authorize what I have so I can continue working on projects into which I've inserted the Ren products. It's going to be alot of unnecessary work if you can't help me out.
    Thanks again for your consideration in this matter,
    Eric
    __________________________________________________________________
    On Mon, 2 Jan 2006 13:39:27 -0500 "Barry Cohen" < barry@waves.com <mailto:barry@waves.com>> writes:
    Hi Eric,.
    I'm sorry if you feel this way Sir. But Waves is not charging you money just "because of a windows clean reinstall",in your own words. Waves is charging ALL its users for maintenance each year. This Maintenance program provides Waves users with the following:
    1) Technical support (since Waves is no longer supporting Disk authorizations you will need to authorize to iLok, just like you would if you went to a different company. Since this is a Tech Support service you will need to be under maintenance).
    2) Version update support
    3) Additional plugins to your bundle. (in the case of the RenMaxx bundle the additional plug-ins are the IR-L native, the Tune Lite native and the Ren-Axx Premium compressor plugin.)
    You are charged with $90 for the ability to not only authorize your bundle to an iLok (which will prevent such satiations as this current one from happening again. iLok authorization is a one time process) but also provide you with more benefits for your money. Benefits that's worth much more than your current WUP cost.
    We have to charge money not only for our products but also for maintenance. Simply put, WUP helps ensure that Waves' sound will be there tomorrow for all of us – customer and company. Waves is not getting any wealthier from the maintenance program – quite the contrary – it maintains us.
    We created WUP to, preliminary, address the challenge that faces any software user and manufacturer-how to keep your tools working for you over the long haul. This has many faces to it:
    You need to know that when you change platform versions or computer operating systems that you can use your Waves plug-ins-without having to buy a new bundle at full price every time there's a change.
    We need to retain enough engineers to write, test, and debug the mountains of code required to keep Waves current on Mac, Windows, and all the DAWS and formats we support. It's like aiming at a dozen moving targets at the same time, and to accomplish it we need an army of engineers.
    Moreover, a lot of man-power is put to make sure that technical and customer service is there for customers. This is at a time when more and more companies are out-sourcing their tech Support resulting in a lesser service and less than happy customers. This always back lashes. Still, keeping our customer service at home has its cost, as you would imagine.
    To meet these challenges we created WUP, a program that offers you these benefits:
    A cost precisely tailored to your usage. Instead of charging a high flat rate for updates, we wanted to keep rates as low and as fair as possible. That's why WUP is calculated on exactly what you own and for how long you've owned it. This is also why if you skip WUP for a year, the cost will be higher when you re-enter the program.
    Complete updates with all the new features. With WUP, you receive updates needed to run your Waves plug-ins on new platforms. But you also get any major new release of your software produced during your coverage, so you'll always have the newest features. For example, IR-1 Reverb owners covered by WUP receive IR-1 V2, which includes a new feature that allows you to capture your own impulse responses to create your own custom reverbs.
    New plug-ins added to your bundle-free. When you're covered by WUP, any new plug-in added to your bundle is yours free-and these are often major releases. For example, Diamond bundle owners covered by WUP this year received the L3 Multimaximizer multi-band limiter (the successor to our legendary L2 Ultramaximizer) for free. That's an $1,800 value.
    Customer and Technical support. Almost around the clock Sunday through Friday and even on holidays.
    And again, keep in mind that WUP helps ensure that Waves will be there tomorrow for all of us.
    -----------------------------------
    Please let me know if you will need any further information or assistance. Please include a copy of our on going correspondence in your mail.
    Thank you for your cooperation, patience and understanding.
    Best regards,
    Barry Cohen
    Waves Sales
    Waves Audio Ltd.
    ____________________________________________________________________________
    From: Eric[mailto:@juno.com]
    Sent: Monday, January 02, 2006 8:15 PM
    To: Barry Cohen
    Subject: Re: FW: Eric requests special upgrade

    Thanks, Barry, but I just found out Waves is trying to make me pay $90 or so more just to reauthorize what I have because of a windows clean reinstall. If this ends up being the case, I will regrettably no longer be a Waves customer.
    Thanks for you time,
    Eric

    Win XP, Sonar 5 PE, P4P800 Deluxe, overclocked P4 3.4, 2 gig RAM, MOTU 24 i/o, UAD-1, Apogee Big Ben masterclock
    #20
    ohhey
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/12 00:24:30 (permalink)
    Holy $#!&... it's a good thing I didn't buy thier stuff, that's all I can say. Now I know why folks crack this software, they are customers that are mad as hell and have some programing skills. Word to the wise vendors.. don't piss off the geeks, they can hurt you.
    #21
    losguy
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/12 00:39:32 (permalink)
    Sounds like somebody's gonna get a WUP-ping!
    post edited by losguy - 2006/01/12 00:42:24

    Psalm 30:12
    All pure waves converge at the Origin
    #22
    yep
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/12 01:38:16 (permalink)
    What's really appalling is that this Barry guy had the nerve to pull all this "we have to do all this maintenance for free" sob-story crap when waves has been charging ten times the price of ABSOLUTELY competitive plugins for years.

    They have persisted in blaming Sonar for THEIR BUG in decimal-handling and have only offered that "Sonar 5 is not currently supported and other plugins have had similar problems," when cakewalk has spelled out for them exactly what the coding problem is.

    Waves, to give credit where it's due, produces absolutely and consistenly top-notch effects and has done so for a long time. And they have a long-standing and well-earned reputation for doing so. It is safe to say that that you could make a first-rate record using no other effects than those found in waves diamond bundle and never have to worry about the quality of your effects. Are waves effects better than any others out there? Not necessarily. But they are a benchmark of sorts, and their effects are always top-quality.And expensive as they may be, they are still cheaper by far than a comperable rack of hardware effects, and waves has traditionally been competing not with other plugins in home studios, but with hardware effects in pro studios. And from that point of view, $2800 for a complete effcts rack is very good deal. And for a time, waves was the only game in town for genuinely hardware-quality plugins.

    But in the past few years, you can get comperable stuff from UAD, or Voxengo, or even from Digitalfishphones or the included bundles with Sonar or whatever for a fraction of the price, or for free, even. In a lot of Pro studios, the money waves charges is no big deal, and they are used to working with it, and they know they can rely on it, so they buy it, and they buy the WUP, no questions asked.

    But there are fewer and fewer reasons with each passing month to shell out that kind of money for a plugin bundle, and commercial studios have been catching on. So rather than lower their prices or improve their quality, waves has decided to hold their existing customers hostage by forcing them to pay an annual fee to use their already overpriced software, knowing that a huge proportion of money-making studios NEED to have access to those plugins simply to complete works already in progress.

    their excuse is that the "WUP" charge covers technical support, but their support is non-existant if it isn't already covered by their online and automated FAQs or whatever anyway! Waves doesn't fix problems that they haven't already planned for, plain and simple!

    Waves has been overcharging their customers for a long time, and has always had acrimonious, onerous copy-protection schemes, and I'm sure that they did this in part to maintain the sense of exclusivity, like Louis Vuitton handbags-- they're the most expensive because they're the best, and the best because they're the most expensive. And i believe they had a right to charge whatever they could get away with charging. The "value" and "quality" of an effects processor is always going to be a subjective assment, and there will always be someone who will pay ten times as much for a 1% improvement.

    But this latest move is a whole different thing. Forcing customers who already paid for a product to pay more to actually USE the product that they already paid for is despicable.

    My $.02, anyway.

    Cheers.
    #23
    Brett
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/12 03:42:19 (permalink)

    I'm a programmer, most software gets around this by claiming that you haven't bought anything you've simply bought a licence or lease of the software. Of course someone who shells out $1000 dollars doesn't consider that a lease.

    I hadn't come across copy protection with music software until I bought Drum Kit from Hell 2 which uses Native Instruments' Komptakt and requires you to run a special programme and send them a key, ie get permission from them to run the programme. I was going to buy their sampler Kontakt(?) but now that I am aware of their techniques I won't - and I have told them. All that old hardware I bought still keeps running, I don't need anyones permission to use it.

    #24
    deiseldave
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/12 11:44:57 (permalink)
    Hi deiseldave-
    I can't believe I found this thread! I very recently had a run-in w/Waves due to a reinstall of my entire audio machine. I know it's long, but I wanted to include my correspondence with them to make you aware of how rediculous it got. Man, it got me fired UP!!
    regards,
    Eric

    I can't beleive people are finding this thread either. I thought it was weird how quick the administrator(s) moved it. When much of the stuff in the Sonar forum is related to 3rd party vendors that Sonar users are looking for help on.
    I'm not neccessarily saying that there is a conflict of interest, or that the administrator has family and/or friends that work for Waves.
    However the level of quick zeal taken to move this thread, while many other "3rd party vendor" threads still exist in the Sonar forum, just made me go "hmmm".
    Waves-gate. Things that make ya go "hmmm".
    I would like to participate in a movement that ensures legal consequences befall companys that practice this type of bad business, and beleive that lack of action = passive support. I am looking into making a website (but am very html challenged), and would equally share my experiences, and the bill for any lawyer willing to represent us.
    If the other companys see Waves suffer, they will be more careful.
    Anyway, thanks for contributing Eric.
    #25
    losguy
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/12 11:45:57 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: yep
    sense of exclusivity, like Louis Vuitton handbags-- they're the most expensive because they're the best, and the best because they're the most expensive.

    Intersting... so, do you suppose that a Waves Diamond package might increase my self-esteem and sense of confidence?


    Psalm 30:12
    All pure waves converge at the Origin
    #26
    deiseldave
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/12 11:46:47 (permalink)
    What's really appalling is that this Barry guy had the nerve to pull all this "we have to do all this maintenance for free" sob-story crap when waves has been charging ten times the price of ABSOLUTELY competitive plugins for years.

    Amen brother ! To the above quote, and all that you said.
    #27
    losguy
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/12 11:54:31 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Brett
    All that old hardware I bought still keeps running, I don't need anyones permission to use it.

    Yet. :O

    Things like Receptor are blurring the lines, though.

    Psalm 30:12
    All pure waves converge at the Origin
    #28
    BruceEnnis
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/12 12:11:16 (permalink)
    Dave after this thread was moved why would you recreate the thread in the Sonar forum

    Bruce Ennis
    Studio
    #29
    deiseldave
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    RE: Waves Boycott!! 2006/01/12 14:42:05 (permalink)
    Dave after this thread was moved why would you recreate the thread in the Sonar forum

    Because more people view the Sonar forum, and I want to unite as many people against Waves as I can.
    I am a Sonar user, and feel that I have a right to solicit support for this cause on the Sonar forum. Especially since there are other Sonar/Waves users who are also concerned.
    #30
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