Waves GTR or Amplitube 2?

Neither. Both are an absolute waste of time and money IMHO. Buy a good hardware sim and be done with it. You can get a V-Amp2 for less than $130 with a little shopping, and now POD has a very inexpensive unit as well.

But there's a lot to be said for a software sim, as I've been learning. The ability to defer the actual tone of all the guitar and base parts until the end and to tweak them to fit, that's a pretty significant advantage. I have a PODxt Pro and I'm not sure in the end it's really any better. I've had a hugely hard time finding tones that I feel are good. I'm actually using Izotope Trash on my current project. It's not because Trash is better necessarily, but because I can work to find the right tone infinitely faster than I can with the POD. With the POD I have to record it over and over and over, testing out each new sound (because it NEVER sounds really like what you will hear if you plug the headphones into the front of the POD after it goes through SONAR and comes back out again.) So I can just test out a hundred times more sound variations with Trash in an hour than I could in a whole day with the POD, and I can change my mind later if I want.

From the perspective of a songwriter or composer, that's a pretty priceless benefit. If you listen to the GTR video on the Waves site, it sounds as good as or better than anything I can get from the POD. I actually wish it sucked, because Waves is a money sucking company of epic proportions, but it sounds really good. I won't quite using the POD's tone generation altogether, since it does have some good ones sometimes. But I cannot deny the advantages of a software sim if it sounds as good as the outboard sim. Trash is probably not that guy, though it has its good points. Something like Amplitube or GTR I'm sure would be better for general usage. But I'm short on bucks and Trash can be used in many different situations from guitar, to drums, to bass, to vocals, to provide various types of distortion, so it's good bang for the buck.

(because it NEVER sounds really like what you will hear if you plug the headphones into the front of the POD after it goes through SONAR and comes back out again.)

Same here with the V-Amp2, but if I patch her through and put VC-64 (Master Mix) (and Voxengo Stereotouch if I want stereo chorus) on it, I get the same fullness. No problemo.

Furthermore, I only needed 5 or 6 basic sounds, not 25 or 50. Jazzy, bluesy, brit 80's chorus, basic rock and a few nice distortions/metallic sounds, 's all. The rest is minimally different treble/mid/bass/gain settings, or even taking down volume esp on the guitar itself, for cleaner sound, and the rest is technique. I hardly touch those 'sweet' settings, only the volume and style of play differs per song, essentially. Haven't found any real improvement soundwise in months, and believe me, I'm open to any, I keep trying new stuff, and tossing it out again, alas.

Furthermore, I only needed 5 or 6 basic sounds, not 25 or 50. Jazzy, bluesy, brit 80's chorus, basic rock and a few nice distortions/metallic sounds, 's all. The rest is minimally different treble/mid/bass/gain settings, or even taking down volume esp on the guitar itself, for cleaner sound, and the rest is technique. I hardly touch those 'sweet' settings, only the volume and style of play differs per song, essentially. Haven't found any real improvement soundwise in months, and believe me, I'm open to any, I keep trying new stuff, and tossing it out again, alas.

I guess we work differently on that front. I'm always looking for just that right sound to both suit the tune and to fit into the mix, and it's just painful to find. To be honest though I've not found more than a few tones that I felt were really good so far, and that after a lot of trial and error. I'm sure some of it is pilot error on my part, or maybe some sort of misconfiguration, I dunno. But I've just not found much that I really liked. Some of it is that so many of the tones you find out there were set up on a Strat or Variac, and they are fairly useless on my Les Paul. I've never found a really nice 'distorted but clean' tone that I really like, at least not so far. I've come to the point of despair any number of times and practically given up and finally just hold my nose and go with whatever I've managed to scrounge up.

So, just to refresh my memory, I sat down tonight and went through every preset tone on the POD (I have all the add-on packs), plus all of the tones I downloaded from this thread on the Line6 forum where the best tone bundles were collected. There were sone that were pretty good. The ones that were best were mostly, strangely enough, the really clean stuff, which you'd think that the POD would do the least well. A number of the distorted tones are these really high gain grunge things with so much congested low-mids that by the time I got them EQ'd then be all but gone. The more retro distorted stuff all seems to have some low frequency grinding overtones.

I just cannot seem to find a really clear, smoothly distorted tone with body. I'm using an RME card, which is very hiqh quality, using either the analog or digital inputs at the same sample rate/bit depth on the POD as the project is set to. This seems to be something that POD doesn't as well as a real amp.

Whew—lot's to say about this subject (one of my favorites), but I'll try to limit myself, which ain't easy being a natural blabbermouth.

First, what Rob said, "Furthermore, I only needed 5 or 6 basic sounds, not 25 or 50." Man I've been saying that forever, not only about guitarist, but especially in regard to keyboard players. The guys who really grab you will generally do it with only a few sounds that they've focused on and made their own. As soon as you hear that buzz saw synth sound come on the radio you know it's Steve Winwood. It's "his" signature sound. When you hear someone even fooling around on a clavinet don't you have the urge to shout "Hey, play 'Superstition'!" Likewise, that's Stevie Wonder's signature sound. Guitarists tend to be that way too, at least the great ones do. Roy Buchanan and Danny Gatton both are known for running a Tele into a Vibrolux. And neither of them sound the same, nor as good, using any other guitar/amp combo. Hendrix w/ a Strat into a fuzz box and a Marshall, Keaggy w/ a LP into a beefed up Twin, Trower w/ a Strat into flanger and a souped up Marshall, Larry Carlton with a 335 into an MXR Dynacomp and Distortion+ into a Princeton, etc. Sure all these guys use other guitars and amps, but it's one or two sounds they're really known for and that brings out the best in them. You have guys like Eric Johnson, Alan Holdsworth, or Jeff Beck who seem to sound quite a bit the same no matter what guitar or amp they use, but that's more rare, and much of it is due to the way they EQ things. You seldom become a legend like that though.

Secondly, anytime I see someone with this midi stuff just recording notes with no set tone beforehand, I always find it irritating. If they don't even know what they want the tune to sound like sonically before they start recording, then are they sure they're even ready to record it yet? Personally, I hear it in my head—every nuance in tone—before I lay down a single note. That's even true when I'm improvising. I don't just reach out with my foot and tap on an effect while soloing to see what it will sound like. I do it because I "want" that sound before I play it.

Third, if you're using a POD, I would greatly encourage you to seek out Roger Davis' Soundclick Page and listen to everything you find there. He consistently gets the best tones around this place, and I'd put his POD sounds up against any amp made.

Fourth, I'm very happy with my V-Amp2, and if it's smooth pretty sounds you're after, the Mesa Boogie Mark IIc sim on this thing paired with the number 6 British single 12" speaker setting is amazingly like the real thing. Example

But I've heard Roger get sounds every bit as good with his POD, so I don't think it matters which one you use.

Neither. Both are an absolute waste of time and money IMHO. Buy a good hardware sim and be done with it. You can get a V-Amp2 for less than $130 with a little shopping, and now POD has a very inexpensive unit as well.

+80.....................

I use V-Amp Pro with a variety of EQ's.

My 2cents on the the fullness issue most guitarists seem to have with amp sims.

Its all B.S...................take the time to reference against Commercial recordings.............

You'll find yourself cuttin' lows more than you'd believe.

Fullness will come within your technique, Bass and Kick attack, phrasing, chord structure, mix and mastering.

Good bass playing, btw - need to recheck that guy on youtube, with padKontrol at the ready

but yeah, I hear what you mean. Sounds OK so far though, but you hear the same things as I do, apparenty. Good fit in the mix, frequency-wise, you got that sussed OK. Sustain is what you need primarily here, is my guess.

Just posted something in the producer forum, also a discussion about getting the most out of your V-amp, is more the jazzy sound, but personally that's as full a sound as I need from my crappy gear. I guess that what's in, is in - can always take out or add overdrive, without losing the basic warmth, or the sustain.

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1099907

Yeah, I'll be programming these settings I have, into the V-amp and toss out the rest, on the other hand. They were nice to give an idea of the soundscapes, but I've made my pick as to the usables, for my work - and needed nothing more so far, than a few hundred euros, and an old guitar. I kinda like that. No way I'd toss that amount of dough you're talking, into anything but a vintage axe.

Which reminds me - can't seem to find this in google easily - Joe, what's the biggest, meanest jumbo hollow-body jazzguitar ever made? Available and affordable would be nice...

Super 400; although a New Yorker or an Emporer would be close 2nd and 3rds. A Byrdland is sweeter sounding (I'd love to have one).

What Rob was saying about dropping lows on POD's and V-Amps is exactly correct. I pretty much always leave the bass turned down about 3db on my mixer channel with my V-Amp2 as a general rule.

[edit] sorry, Joe we crossposted, didn't read yours yet...

Mwuha, first ad I opened for a vintage ES-335 a guy wanted to trade it for a Porsche.

I think the original Gibsons are too pricey, but way cool as to quality compared with the Epiphones. When it comes to Korean stuff, the Cort gives as good as Ibanez quality for half the price:

http://www.guitar.com.au/guitars/electric/cort/jazz.htm

but am also considering having one built to custom, that's only half the price of a new ES-335, to my surprise...

http://eugene.craigslist.org/msg/372065398.html

I have that with my battered old nylon Yamaha.

It usually stands in full view, since it's my main choice for trying out a tune, whatever. People sometime pick it up, strum a few chords, or pick it and go like yuck, this has seen better times. True, but then I take it from them and give it a go, and you see the eyes go big, like 'I didn't see no volume switch?' That's only because I had it for the last 20 years or so, I know exactly what the old corpse can do, and not.

But for recording it's not the best, the body's too small really. Maybe I should go for a real concert nylon rather than a better jazz guitar at this point, although those hollow-bodies do sound mighty sweet.

To get somewhat back on topic, yeah I think the surprising conclusion is that amp sims actually do a better job at giving more body to your sound than do a one-stop shopping job in the overdrive/gain section. Best add a real, even small amp with a good mic if you want that, and maybe some extra software, although I doubt I'd invest heavily there. Think I'll just toss in a small 15 watter tube amp, and a shure mic, think that works better than any software ever can.

Again, I'm pretty happy with the sound I get, I could have been down a few thousand, all in all, and be less happy, I guess. This I could replace in a few days if it breaks down, or gets stolen, whatever [knocks on wood]. And I like the fiddling with simple gear to max the capabilities, I never expect something to be perfect out of the box, anyway.

Well, I downloaded the Amplitube demo today, and I think I'm going to go in that direction. I'm just using Trash on the demo so I've not committed and wanted to check the other options. I think I can do more with Amplitube than I can with the POD. It sounds just as good and it's more flexible because I don't have to commit to a sound up front. It doesn't have some of Trash's fancy multi-band stuff, but it's a more general purpose amp/cab/fx system and more realistic sounding. And, since they are having 2 for 1 sale, I can get the Ampeg bass sim for free, so it's a doubly good deal.

So, what I'm figuring is that I'll get the two packages, put the POD up for sale, and use the proceeds to be a nice tube based DI box, so that I can get a nice warm tubey DI track into SONAR and then apply Amplitube to get the final sound I want. I think that will just work out better for me in the end and suit my needs better.

I'm not sure what DI box I'd get though. Universal Audio has a really nice one, but it's $800 street price. I'll have to explore that a bit.