WVought
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 09:26:43
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Despite my sig, I have no need for an undo button or Ctrl-Z, because I never make a mistake.
Never do more in the morning than you can undo in the afternoon.
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gswitz
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 10:06:44
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@WVought - lol
@Vladasyn - I frankly think they should put it back just for you!
I also see this as an opportunity for Control Bar Customization. Touch will increase our desire to be able to customize our on-screen functions to our special needs. While VLadasyn might need Undo, I might need a single touch to bounce to tracks or normalize or some other thing. If we could create customized Control Bar sections, it would make adopting touch more comfortable.
For me, part of the issue with adopting touch is it takes practice. Over the years, I've become very efficient with mouse and keyboard. It is hard to rival that efficiency as a touch newbie. Anything that can be done to make it easier to bring up our touch efficiency will be helpful.
Right now, for me, I go from playing my guitar to touch the screen first to try to change what I need (tempo, time position, record arm, levels of various tracks); I can do this without putting down my guitar. If I have to put down my guitar, I'm likely to just make all necessary changes with keyboard and mouse before picking the guitar back up.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 10:10:24
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The buttons were taken out at the time (in X1) to redo the control bar and remove excess clutter. At the time it was determined that most users do not use those buttons but use shortcut keys.
One thing that confuses me - if you are at a MIDI keyboard how would you have access to control the mouse anyway even if there were buttons? So I don't see how buttons would solve the problem you stated.
If you are at a MIDI keyboard exclusively, you are much better off assigning MIDI key bindings with a MIDI shift key to assign a 2 keys for undo/redo, as someone else pointed out in this thread.
That said I think with touch screens its not an unreasonable request to want buttons for undo/redo ...
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gswitz
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 10:16:56
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Noel, I totally agree with you on the excess clutter thing. I think 98% of us will never hit the undo button on the control bar.
That said, being able to customize touchable buttons on the screen might make a real difference.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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deswind
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 10:29:55
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An undo button and others in the control bar is a great idea. I think X3 is great, but this is definitely a great enhancement idea for those that use these buttons on so many programs including 8.5.3, etc.
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vladasyn
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 10:45:20
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Where is the features request thread? I thought- all we have to do is- post on the forum. I have been asking for it on and off for couple of years- nothing happened. I am hoping every new update, every new paid upgrade that it will re-appear, but it is not. I did not hear that Sonar can be controlled with iPad or Surface. It is interesting. What I did is- I made 4 monitors set up. I have 2 monitors on my desk and monitors on keyboard station, this way- I can see screen when recording. But Undo takes 3 steps, when it is 1 step in most of the programs.
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jeebustrain
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 10:49:19
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When I'm tracking my drums, I use my Ipad running Daw Remote HD to control Sonar. It has a dedicated Undo button on it (which I use regularly), so I am going to make the assumption that it is possible to map it to a button on a midi controller.
When I'm at my keyboard, I use ctrl+z
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My Music
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scook
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 10:51:54
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☄ Helpfulby Mystic38 2013/10/06 12:43:09
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vladasyn
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 11:00:07
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Noel, I never in my life in any other program used Keyboard Shortcuts. There is totally different workflow. Many people do everything with mouse. I do not do "Control A, Control C, Control V" in word- I use mouse. Wireless mouse is small and fits on any keyboard just fine. One problem with it is that it falls down when you play. Now- carrying keyboard AND mouse AND mouse pad every time is difficult. I had to place monitor on the keyboard to be able to press "Play", "Record" and such. Yes, I know- I can press the bar on keyboard to start playback. But I would not know how to engage Record or select a track- one way or another- the monitor is needed to be able to see the wav clip appearance, pics and so on. While I can see how Normalize button may be nice, nobody uses Normalize continuously over and over and over. Undo- when I record a phrase- I some time make 50 takes. I would play the same thing over and over and over and over until every note is in place. The I record filters Cutof/Reso/Modulation, and such. Those take multiple takes to get it right. So if I do 50 takes, with 1 step Undo, it is 50 clicks. With 3 steps undo- it is 150 clicks. That hurts. How can you say that Undo is a clutter? I did not get full understanding of this new feature that makes little takes within the track. This may be helpful, but I do not need to collect bad takes. When it is bad, I know- I want it to be gone, therefore- UNDO. 150 clicks is frustrating. Other than play- can you name one function that is used that many times?
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 11:05:01
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I see what you mean about having a wireless mouse. However I still encourage you to try using MIDI keybindings since its far better than messing with the mouse. These don't require a computer keyboard. All you do is assign a convenient MIDI key to do any action you want. You can have one action for undo and another for redo. So record a take, if you dont like it simply press the assign MIDI key on your keyboard and you are done.
We used to do that in our studio all the time since the keyboard was far away from the computer and even the screen was not visible. Using some simple keybindings it was easy to start, stop, record, undo, redo and save all from the MIDI keyboard without even looking at the screen.
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gswitz
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 11:11:08
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@Vladasyn - I wasn't at all trying to suggest that normalize was used heavily. I was just suggesting that as you can map buttons on the Alpha Track to shortcut commands in Sonar, so too it would be nice to be able to do the same in Sonar. For example, with the fast track, you can map the 8 buttons to different functions while editing and then switch them while tracking. Similarly, we could have custom buttons that we could map any way that we want. You could have your Undo button, others could have something else. They could have assignable mappings tied to screen-set. A number of people have mentioned the alternatives that most of us use. Mapping to midi keys... or using controllers or ctlr+z. And you've stated why you don't want these solutions. Hear that I'm with you. I was just trying to lay it out in a way where the Development Team isn't making a change for you ONLY. If they make it customizable, then you can get what you want while creating a widget that can be used by many for various purposes. There aren't many people clamoring for the undo button. Getting critical mass may happen if we ask for assignable buttons (like on the Alpha Track).
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Mystic38
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 11:19:25
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vladasyn
Noel, I never in my life in any other program used Keyboard Shortcuts. There is totally different workflow. Many people do everything with mouse. I do not do "Control A, Control C, Control V" in word- I use mouse. Wireless mouse is small and fits on any keyboard just fine. One problem with it is that it falls down when you play. Now- carrying keyboard AND mouse AND mouse pad every time is difficult. I had to place monitor on the keyboard to be able to press "Play", "Record" and such. Yes, I know- I can press the bar on keyboard to start playback. But I would not know how to engage Record or select a track- one way or another- the monitor is needed to be able to see the wav clip appearance, pics and so on. While I can see how Normalize button may be nice, nobody uses Normalize continuously over and over and over. Undo- when I record a phrase- I some time make 50 takes. I would play the same thing over and over and over and over until every note is in place. The I record filters Cutof/Reso/Modulation, and such. Those take multiple takes to get it right. So if I do 50 takes, with 1 step Undo, it is 50 clicks. With 3 steps undo- it is 150 clicks. That hurts. How can you say that Undo is a clutter? I did not get full understanding of this new feature that makes little takes within the track. This may be helpful, but I do not need to collect bad takes. When it is bad, I know- I want it to be gone, therefore- UNDO. 150 clicks is frustrating. Other than play- can you name one function that is used that many times?
with undo history, removing 50 takes is still only three clicks :) shortcuts: I think you are missing a huge potential improvement in productivity... keyboard shortcuts are called shortcuts for a reason.. they are quicker and easier than navigating to a menu with a mouse. Some of the recent features in x2 and x3 will save me a sizeable percentage of time on task.. some suggestions:.. I also similarly make multiple takes, and subsequently multiple takes for controllers at times.. I don't care about the number of takes..nor do I bother with "undo" for a bad take.. I move on.. the lanes bad takes reside in can be deleted when i clean up.. to me, time at the synth is data collection only. this approach may work for you also. If you have issues locating your mouse on your controller keyboard.. get a trackball.. if you have room for something else on the left, get a game controller for keyboard shortcuts... I have a belkin nt52. its only 5" wide and can be programmed with a sizeable arsenal of shortcuts to your liking...and a bunch of macros... the possibilities are quite endless. regards
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vladasyn
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 12:00:27
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Noel, thank you for the suggestion. I have no idea how to implement this, also it does not sound great, but I will take a look in to it.
This thread was intended for those who needs Undo button. I appreciate the suggestions, but there is no need to post, "I do not need Undo button". It only contradicts the effort of those who needs it and dissolves their requests, making them less relevant. I hope nobody here would have a problem with us having it. These are 2 small buttons- it does not take that much space on the interface. So if you don't need it, you don't have to use it. It used to be customizable- I would like to have the Module that used to contain Undo. This is vital function for me. I felt like my hands were cut off when it disappeared. I am not asking for the work around. I am asking if it can be made available again. I am sure there more than one user in the world that needs it, and there is no harm from it. So, please, support the initiative! Thank you for your replies.
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WallyG
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 12:09:20
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vladasyn
Noel, thank you for the suggestion. I have no idea how to implement this, also it does not sound great, but I will take a look in to it.
This thread was intended for those who needs Undo button. I appreciate the suggestions, but there is no need to post, "I do not need Undo button". It only contradicts the effort of those who needs it and dissolves their requests, making them less relevant. I hope nobody here would have a problem with us having it. These are 2 small buttons- it does not take that much space on the interface. So if you don't need it, you don't have to use it. It used to be customizable- I would like to have the Module that used to contain Undo. This is vital function for me. I felt like my hands were cut off when it disappeared. I am not asking for the work around. I am asking if it can be made available again. I am sure there more than one user in the world that needs it, and there is no harm from it. So, please, support the initiative! Thank you for your replies.
I suggest you take a poll to see how many users besides yourself would like to see the Undo button restored. So far it's one... BTW, Why do you even need the Undo button? If you're doing several takes to get that perfect one, why not just record over the previous one. You can even use short cuts on your keyboard to hit stop, record, play. Hitting undo each time adds another step. Walt
Roland Jupiter 80, Roland D50, Roland Integra 7, Roland BK-7m, Yamaha Montage 6, ARP Odyssey, Excelsior Continental Artist, Roland FR-8X, 1967 Fender Jaguar, Fender Strat, Fender 1965 Twin Reverb reissue, Selmer Trumpet, Akai EWI, Studio One 4 Professional, Melodyne Studio 4, Behringer X-Touch, RME Fireface UCX, MOTU MIDI Express XT - ADK Pro Audio Hex Xtreme 6 Core i7 4.5GHz, 64GB, 480GB SS, 3 X 3TB Hard Drives, Win 10, 2 X 27" & 1X 46" Monitors, My WEB site - www.gontowski.com/music
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Mystic38
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 12:51:09
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if you wish to add a feature then that is the place to go...however if you post in the forum you can reasonably expect folks to have a discussion on it. I would recommend however that you consider minor workflow adjustments to make your life easier, rather than waiting for Sonar to adapt to you... particularly binding a midi event to undo from your controller as suggested by Noel. scook
vladasyn
Where is the features request thread?
Link to feature request form in here http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/2839291
HPE-580T with i7-950, 8G, 1.5T, ATI6850, Win7/64, Motu 828 III Hybrid, Motu Midi Express, Sonar Platinum, Komplete 9, Ableton Live 9 & Push 2, Melodyne Editor and other stuff, KRK VXT8 Monitors Virus Ti2 Polar, Fantom G6, Yamaha S70XS, Novation Nova, Novation Nova II, Korg MS2000, Waldorf Micro Q, NI Maschine Studio, TC-VoiceLive Rack, 2012 Gibson Les Paul Standard, 2001 Gibson Les Paul DC, 1999 Fender Am Hardtail Strat, Fender Blues Jr, Orange TH30/PPC212, Tak EF360GF, one mic, no talent.
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Loptec
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 14:24:43
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vladasyn
Noel, I never in my life in any other program used Keyboard Shortcuts. There is totally different workflow. Many people do everything with mouse. I do not do "Control A, Control C, Control V" in word- I use mouse.
I'm not sure you understand what we're suggesting here.. MIDI key bindings has nothing to do with your qwerty-keyboard. Instead you use your MIDI-controller's piano keys to control Sonar. With your many MIDI-keyboards this really would be the best way for you to control Sonar. Much better than reaching for the mouse all the time OR reaching for ctrl+z In all your posts you have not mentioned anything about this suggestion yet, which makes me wonder if you've understood what we're talking about..? Please try this out. It's a great feature.
SAMUEL LIDSTRÖM
 DAW: Sonar Platinum (64bit) with Melodyne Studio - Controllers: Roland VS-700C, Cakewalk A-500 Pro, Yamaha P90Desktop Audio Interface: RME HDSPe RayDAT - Laptop Audio Interface: RME Babyface Pro
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rodreb
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 14:33:09
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Personally, I'm old and don't like to have to learn new ways of doing simple things. I don't want to be forced to learn a bunch of keyboard shortcuts. Yeah, I know, it's what "everybody else" is doing but, why can't we have the choice? Is it that difficult to implement?
Yeah, I know I'm old and stuck in my ways but, it is what it is.
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shmuelyosef
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 15:15:01
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I have been using the X-keys products for years www.piengineering.com/xkeys.php ...economical, configurable and a variety of sizes.
post edited by shmuelyosef - 2013/10/06 15:27:22
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shmuelyosef
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 15:21:11
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[deleted]
post edited by shmuelyosef - 2013/10/06 15:27:51
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shmuelyosef
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 15:23:21
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dke
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 16:40:50
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I wouldn't mind having an UNDO button. When working in Sonar I'm probably an 80/20 split using mouse/keyboard. Unless I'm playing my guitar etc., my hand is always on the mouse, not the keyboard. I'm just as likely to go to Edit->Undo as use cntrl z. I'm just not big on keyboard shortcuts, never have been and likely never will be. The few times I play keyboard I take my wireless mouse, but most of the time I don't even have midi device hooked up. I really don't see the big deal about giving users 1 box in the Control panel to put a few oft used buttons. It's kind of like the way Microsoft has been about Windows 8. Now colors I could see was probably a big cost in development time, but I don't see how the same argument could made against buttons for Undo etc. As far as Clutter how is the Screen Set module, or marker module, any less a source of clutter than a module that has a few buttons such as Save/As, New, Open, and Undo.
And while were at it, I'd still like to have collapse buttons on each dock tab, and have the view go back to the prior view when closing a dock tab instead of going to the next tab. :)
Dan
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skinnybones lampshade
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 18:55:20
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I would like to chime in in favour of an undo button. I work with the mouse whenever possible and dislike using the keyboard and therefore also dislike using keyboard shortcuts. I blame my cruel typing teacher for this aversion  . Seriously, an undo button would be very welcome.
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brian brock
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 19:24:33
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the salient point is that pre-"skylight" Sonar had customizable control bar panels which were very useful for many people. Along with the default panels (which were also customizable) there were three "User" panels which were easy to set up with any of dozens of features. By removing the customization, the program was made easier to understand for accomplishing specific tasks, but less versatile. This is a running theme in many of the limitations of the X-series Sonar editions - streamlining of the most common tasks while inadvertently interfering with rarer but still valuable edge cases. I imagine that while most users don't miss the Undo button, there are nonetheless times when they use the mouse to accomplish tasks, and that some of these tasks may be uncommon enough not to be worth remembering a keyboard shortcut, but common enough to be worth having access on the surface level of the interface. Customization of control bar panels would allow for individual users to control which of these cases they need. Many of the current control bar panels offer more features for their particular tasks than I need, and so I have to compromise in order to have the features I most want on-screen. In Sonar 8 I simply created a panel with many of those features included.
post edited by brian brock - 2013/10/06 19:53:30
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Silicon Audio
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 20:11:17
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I guess it would be fair to say that more people have a wireless mouse than a wireless keyboard. And not everyone has a midi controller. When recording away from the keyboard, their wireless mouse is their controller. As much as I use Ctrl-Z without even thinking, I can see the case for a little bit of customization, allowing for the likes of a clickable undo/redo.
My Frontier Tranzport has an undo button, which I use heaps when recording away from the qwerty keyboard.
"One of the great and beautiful things about music and recordings in general is that legacies live on" - Billy Arnell - April 15 2012
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mudgel
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 20:33:14
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☄ Helpfulby Mystic38 2013/10/07 14:57:56
If you tie yourself to a mouse then you're not really interested in speeding up your workflow. You really just wanting to hang onto the way you've always done it.
To not adapt your tools to better serve your needs to me sounds unreasonable.
Piano / synth keyboard with a few key combinations and your hands don't have to leave the keyboard to grab hold of a mouse.
Learn keyboard shortcuts (qwerty) again your hand doesn't have to leave the keyboard. It's just so much faster.
Your daw is not just a tool but your recording, mixing, arranging, mastering instrument, why not learn to play it as well as the musical instrument of your choice.
And if you want a feature that's currently not implemented then put In a feature request. Also read the manual. All the info on setting key bindings, both qwerty and MIDI keyboard are covered in quite some detail.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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skinnybones lampshade
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 21:11:33
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... now wishing for a Undo Holier-Than-Thou Lecture button
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sharke
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 21:54:39
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JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Paul P
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 22:35:26
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I remember back in the day, secretaries screamed that with the (newly introduced) mouse their hand had to leave the keyboard slowing them down immensely. They did everything with keyboard shortcuts because before mice, menus and buttons, that was the only way. Then we all got used to mice, menus and buttons and no longer had to learn keyboard shortcuts. Then Cakewalk throws the buttons away and we all have to learn keyboard shortcuts again. Make up your minds, already  I also hate keyboard shortcuts, now that my right hand is almost permanently on my mouse a lot of the time (depending on what I'm doing). Ctrl-this and Shift-Alt-that one-handed takes a lot of twisting and stretching **and looking at the keyboard**. I prefer a button. However, I like the idea of the midi note shortcuts, if I only had a controller with more than two octaves.
Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
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riojazz
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/06 23:16:37
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In response to the original post, yes, I would like an Undo button. I would also like a Save button.
Software: Cakewalk by Bandlab; Adobe Audition; Band-in-A-Box audiophile; Izotope Ozone; Encore; Melodyne; Win 10 Pro, 64-bit. Hardware: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 2nd; Roland Integra-7; TCE Finalizer; Presonus Central Station, Behringer X-Touch. Home built i7 with 16 GB RAM, SSDs.
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vladasyn
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Re: We need Undo button back!
2013/10/07 01:05:55
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You all making many valuable points and I appreciate your support! Using mouse to me is faster than using keyboard. I am fast with the mouse. And if Cakewalk arranged interface even more mouse- friendly, I would be even faster. With my 25 years of experience with MIDI, I know that I cannot rely on it to be consistent. Also- there is a way to control Transport via MIDI. If you saying, we do not need button for Undo because it can be done via MIDI from keyboard, then why do we still have Play/Record/Pause? Any MIDI keyboard has transport function and can control DAW… RIGHT? Actually- Wrong. I have Yamaha Motif, Roland Fantom and Novation Launchkey as my main controllers- all 3 have transport- none of them is able to make Sonar properly start and stop on demand. Not to mention “Record.” So why not use typing keyboard for recording and play/stop? Lets get rid of all buttons!
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