shmuelyosef
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/07/15 23:30:34
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I believe that the biggest problem newbies have with DAWs is the lack of context...a few things they should realize: 1. All DAWs basically accomplish the same things, and 90% or more of the individual tasks are done the same for each of these 2. Music production is different than just "playing in a band"...an introduction to this is useful. My favorite is: https://www.coursera.org/learn/music-production/home/welcome (the Berklee free course). Even though I have been recording music since the late 60s and using Cakewalk products since the 80s, I found it useful when I took it a couple years back...it provides a thought framework. 3. Overview education certainly IS lacking at the Cakewalk site...most of the stuff is down in the weeds. A tool that I have found useful for all kinds of things is Groove3 (groove3.com). It costs money, but there are some great SONAR courses there (the Eli Krantzberg stuff) as well as overview tutorials of many other DAWs. If you watch for a sale, you can get a year of "All You Can Eat" education for as low as $79. There is also a lot of instrument education as well as learning about synths and programming drum machines. Plenty of Ableton stuff as well as lots of miking and recording techniques that are DAW-independent, but point you at the important features. Depends on what your time is worth, but for me, every hour I spend watching a focused tutorial saves my two hours within a couple of weeks.
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konradh
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/07/15 23:53:13
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☄ Helpfulby abacab 2017/07/18 12:19:01
I agree that Groove 3 (Sonar Explained) is worth every penny. Watch every video a couple of times and you'll be in good shape.
As alluded to in my previous comments, most mainstream DAWs designs are skeuomorphic; that is, they are conceptually like an analog console and a tape machine. The Track View is a visualization of the tracks on a piece of tape. The effects bin, Inspector, and ProChannel are like the channel strip and patch bay. The console view is like the board. Export is like mix-down to a two-track 1/4" machine.
People who worked in 24-track analog studios with large consoles and often recorded pre-programmed MIDI instruments and drum machines just have to learn which functions map to which hardware components. Once that is out of the way, it is not hard to add in Melodyne and other things that did not exist in the physical world. Cut/Copy/Paste did not exist in the tape world, but we all understand that from other software.
In the early days of Pro Tools, the software basically just replaced the tape machine.
For a new generation, this may or may not make sense and I wonder how long we should continue with the old model.
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cparmerlee
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/07/16 00:30:36
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☄ Helpfulby abacab 2017/07/18 12:19:06
konradh
For a new generation, this may or may not make sense and I wonder how long we should continue with the old model. I absolutely agree with this -- at least with the question. I am nor certain of the answer, but I do think it is a bad business plan to cling to a model that probably 90% of the future customers will have no knowledge of. This problem is really pervasive because those who know the most about sound engineering did actually work in these classic hardware fortresses that barely exist today. And this mentality is carried forward in the language, that I believe hurts more than it helps. As I came to the DAW world, I feel like a wasted a lot of time trying to understand what people were talking about under the banner of "mixing" and "mastering". These are extremely misleading, counter-productive terms, IMHO, and they grossly under-value what DAWs do today. When the average person hears "mixing" they think of pushing faders and little else. In fact "mixing has evolved to be a vast discipline. I think it would much better to call it "track coloration, integration, and balance" although that doesn't roll off the tongue very well. But is most certainly isn't about pushing faders around (not most of the time anyway.) Likewise, what is "mastering"? The term came from the era when the main job was to prepare the recording to work on the physical media -- or to package the material into the "master" copy. It was mostly about getting the right overall sound level so that the material was loud enough but not so loud as to make the needle skip. And later it was about putting the material into the right format for physical CD replication. But the thing we call "mastering" is actually a lot broader than that today. It is a combination of final coloring of the stereo mix and preparing the material to be optimal on many different distribution media. I don't think "mastering" is a relevant, meaningful word for this anymore. Somebody should come up with better terminology than "tracking," "mixing," and "mastering."
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kellyg
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/07/16 01:15:19
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F1 works in many cases, but not everywhere. For instance, on Pro Channel, open the equalizer and press F1. When I do that, I get a generic help topic on the track view. likewise, if I open, say, the convolution reverb on the Pro Channel, I likewise don't get anything specific on using that reverb. Again we are on the same page. F1 is fine as a way to invoke the help. It's just that I would like to see it become a convention in designing effects that they integrate with the help system so that no matter where you are, you get context sensitive help. Some of it works pretty well, don't get me wrong. I was just saying what would make a DAW easier to use in my estimation. I do realize how awesome Sonar is and how much thought goes into improving every aspect of it. I was looking at the Lenses feature today. That is a lot like what I was asking for in the first post, if there were a few more "preset" lenses for newbies or specific task flows. That would be pretty easy to accomplish and that will probably happen as time goes by.
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tlw
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/07/16 03:57:13
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Yes, that's one idea that might be useful.
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zblip2@gmail.com
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/07/18 02:28:31
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CHORDS!
Alot of us can imagine a nice melody or a hook, but for many of us it is in the cords department that we are lacking. Sometimes it is a question of chord choices that will determine how good the music is. Chords are inspiration and the building blocks of any song.
All the compressors and EQs and synths will not help a musician as much as the ability to express himself better and faster and access chords that he would have never used because he just dosent have the knowlage of them.
I wish there was a midi feature that would map chords to different keys. I imagined the following system: There are 76 keys on a keyboard. Imagine if each was a chord, spread out left and right from central C. The closer to C, the more relevent, the farthest the more distant. This feature would work as a midi plugin. First you determine the base tonality of your song, either major or minor, then you assign it to central C. Then, playing around the keys would give you a multitude of chords that would be recorded on a midi track. I can easily imagine so many songwriters and producers using this feature as a comporing tool and thanking Cakewalk each time they use it... I know i wold
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cparmerlee
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/07/18 02:40:35
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zblip2@gmail.com
Alot of us can imagine a nice melody or a hook, but for many of us it is in the cords department that we are lacking. Sometimes it is a question of chord choices that will determine how good the music is. Chords are inspiration and the building blocks of any song.
Have you tried this one? I have not, but have wondered if it is useful at all. http://www.re-compose.com...es-music-software.html
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abacab
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/07/18 12:23:30
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zblip2@gmail.com
CHORDS!
Alot of us can imagine a nice melody or a hook, but for many of us it is in the cords department that we are lacking. Sometimes it is a question of chord choices that will determine how good the music is. Chords are inspiration and the building blocks of any song.
All the compressors and EQs and synths will not help a musician as much as the ability to express himself better and faster and access chords that he would have never used because he just dosent have the knowlage of them.
I wish there was a midi feature that would map chords to different keys. I imagined the following system: There are 76 keys on a keyboard. Imagine if each was a chord, spread out left and right from central C. The closer to C, the more relevent, the farthest the more distant. This feature would work as a midi plugin. First you determine the base tonality of your song, either major or minor, then you assign it to central C. Then, playing around the keys would give you a multitude of chords that would be recorded on a midi track. I can easily imagine so many songwriters and producers using this feature as a comporing tool and thanking Cakewalk each time they use it... I know i wold
There are plugins for this. Try the free Tonespace http://www.mucoder.net/en/tonespace/ Cthulu is only $39 https://www.xferrecords.com/products/cthulhu But I will add that I checked out the demo of Cubase Elements 9, and found the chord functions with circle of fifths assistant in that very interesting. It's only $99. https://www.steinberg.net...e/cubase_elements.html"Composing music consists of finding an idea that you can elaborate into a full music composition. Cubase Elements makes it easy to harmonize and arrange your music with the innovative and unique Chord Pads and Arranger Track."
DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ...
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The Quiet Bear
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/07/23 16:28:56
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I have gotten most of my sequencer knowledge from Craig Anderton and Scott Garrigus' Sonar Power Books. I read and try new things. I learned long ago to approach my sequencer as another musical instrument. I "practice" with it. I don't wait until I am doing a project to learn how to do something new. I practice with little "excercises" just as I would with my instruments. When I get stuck, I go to the book (the glossary) and look it up. Perhaps this sounds old fashioned, but it works, in that I learn at MY PACE rather than a video. It might be good if Sonar and others would list all books about their DAW somewhere so that the learner could see how different authors accomplish the same problems. I am a musician, so my most learning is about editing, saving time, mixing, etc. Thank you to all the authors and teachers who have tried to make new things more understandable, especially Craig and Scott.
Jack the Quiet Bear
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The Quiet Bear
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/07/23 16:35:01
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A quick reply to those looking for quick knowledge. Learn about scales (Major Scale). All music comes from scales. Once understood, most all other questions can be answered be thinking in terms of the scale that your music actually comes from.
Jack the Quiet Bear
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Starise
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/07/24 14:08:57
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I'm not sure just how many features cross pollinate to other daws. I'm mixing a project right now that has caused me to question the ceiling in many.
I started a project in Sonar Platinum and needed to lengthen the arrangement. I still don't know exactly how to use slip editing yet. It doesn't seem intuitive on the surface. I ended up exporting my stems into Studio One 3 for arrange editing. I could grok that fairly fast and I made it work. OTOH when I needed to import an mp4. I couldn't find a way to do that in SO, so I had to go back to Sonar, import the mp4 and export to wav. so I could finish the mix in SO.
Then I discover that SO either has no way to add effects to a clip or it is so unintuitive I couldn't find it. I got so frustrated I exported all the stems back into Sonar after the arrangement.
You could use the argument that I needed more education in Sonar. While this is true, I find the manner in which the functions are explained isn't intuitive.In some cases the functions themselves aren't intuitive. We get a 3 minute video from a guy who sounds like he's explaining a microsoft code manual. There must be a better way to get these ideas across for the average user. We shouldn't need to buy a groove course to figure it out.
In some of these training vids the feeling I get is, here's the point in a hurry, in an uninteresting delivery no less. I don't get points spoken fast in a hurry. Show better examples. Slow the **** down. If you don't have space make multiple videos on it.
I'll compare slip editing to cakes time stretch technology. I find it so very unintuitive. The videos are like bang/pow. Ok we're ready to go. If this is true, why do so many people still struggle with these kinds of things? If I'm in the minority, I'll accept that. I'm a long time user and I still don't get some of it. I'm not picking on Sonar exclusively. They all have hurdles, but the education delivery system at Cakewalk needs an overhaul.
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Kev999
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/07/25 02:21:12
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Easier to use or easier to learn? The two things don't always go hand in hand. Features that have been implemented in such a way as to make some particular tasks work efficiently for advanced users are often unintuitive and baffling to newbies.
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Base 57
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/07/25 03:19:13
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Slip editing... Cntrl-Shift, Click on the waveform and stretch. The videos probably still show the old way (shift-click). It was changed a few updates back.
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The Quiet Bear
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/07/25 20:50:09
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I have found that learning from videos has some drawbacks that a printed out set of steps that I can do at my speed is better. For Sonar, I have found the Scott Garrigus book invaluable. While it is 448 pages long, it is VERY inclusive. When reading, I have time to think about the why's of what I am doing. I prefer that. Of course I'm am not a young guy anymore and I grew up learning from books. I do recommend the Sonar Power book. I keep it handy right at the computer. After I have looked something up and done it I usually remember how to do it again. I use Sonar Power X2 as that is the version I have. Upgrading for me will have to do an awful lot more to convince me to do so.
Jack, the Quiet Bear
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Mark Kirby
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/11/05 02:25:11
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I think it would be nice if Sonar (and other DAWs I'm assuming) would work well with ALL other formats and standards, having bought Native Instruments and Arturia software and hardware with no real "gel" between the DAW and them really kind of tweaks me, load Kontakt and you have to set up there, midi this and that in Sonar, run into glitches and crap, seems like the standard of midi and software between companies could be a bit more user friendly.
It would also be nice if Sonar updated their control surface options given there's been x^infinity advancements in all that since the last obvious update...monthly updates yet not one addresses this issue I'm assuming lots of us would like a resolution to. I know there are work arounds (which I use) but why doesn't Sonar address the problem directly?
It would also be nice of Sonar with my monthly subscription to include a video series explaining how their software works with all these other controllers and software, would it kill them to mention NI, how to make it work well with that format? I have set up instruments from Kontakt, but I'm limited to 8 input/outputs? why? Isn't there an update for that glitch? Am I being driven to other software that works well with NI? It's confusing to me that other software works flawlessly with NI standards yet Sonar doesn't seem to offer a solution but they'll give me useless loops this month that I'll never use.
It would be nice with a future update to be able to load Komplete Kontrol and have all of the midi and audio tracks map out to where I could use one or two instances of Komplete to lay down what I need from there to add bass, drums, guitar and vocals....simple request. I don't want to have to dig in a route every single midi this and that and map the audio to this and that, why? It's mixing software, they DO KNOW what we want to do with it right?
...rant mode, off
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Anderton
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/11/05 04:31:01
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Mark Kirby
I think it would be nice if Sonar (and other DAWs I'm assuming) would work well with ALL other formats and standards... And I've bolded the problematic word right there...ALL. At this very moment, it's possible that someone in the Cubase forum is asking "Why can't Console 1 do synchronized track selection, control of DAW fader, pan, solo, and mute, and control of DAW send levels - like SONAR and Studio One? And why can't Ableton Live, Digital Performer, Logic, and Nuendo not handle those functions either? And why can't the mighty Pro Tools not only not be able to do any of those, but can't even auto-transfer track numbers? And why does Console 1 only support some UA plug-ins? Why do I have to set it up if I want to use plug-ins other than what came with it? And why does Cubase give me useless integration with the Yamaha Motif XS which I'll never use, but not with the Arturia Laboratory?" seems like the standard of midi and software between companies could be a bit more user friendly. Well, yes, and it would also be nice if all TV remotes were compatible, that Open Office could read Microsoft Word files perfectly, and that your web site looked the same in any browser. When behemoths like Alphabet, Microsoft, and Apple can't get their acts together, that should tell you something right there. What you are asking for is the ability of MIDI to be able to inquire which instrument is connected and its characteristics. That is not part of the MIDI spec, although it may be someday. Meanwhile, you have two choices... - Have a program's developers spend time and effort coming up with templates for devices, control surfaces, and software (all of which can change at a moment's notice and require a rewrite), and of which there is a near-infinite assortment. Just think how long it would take for Cakewalk to come up just with templates for all the APC-type control surfaces for Live so they could light up lights when used with the Matrix View. Also think how many people would complain about dev time being spent on gear that benefits OTHER PEOPLE instead of updates to the core program.
- Create a program that's sufficiently customizable so that with a little effort, it's possible to come up with templates and presets designed to work smoothly with an individual's particular setup. That seems to be the approach that SONAR has taken (with a few exceptions, like the Console 1 integration, and some of the integration done previously with Roland gear).
I have set up instruments from Kontakt, but I'm limited to 8 input/outputs? why? Isn't there an update for that glitch? There is no glitch and no limit other than that imposed by Kontakt itself (i.e., 64 mono/32 stereo outputs). I just confirmed it by loading Kontakt with 64 mono outputs. I'm not sure what you're doing wrong, but that does loop back to the original question I asked to start this thread. There are three choices of Kontakt you can insert - 8, 16, and 32 stereo outputs (or double the number of mono outputs). These are not identified as such when you go to load Kontakt, however regarding what I said about customization, the number of outputs are identified in SONAR's plug-in manager, and you can rename them so you never have to wonder again which one you're inserting. See below.  Maybe someday, programs will learn you. Until then, you have to learn programs.
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Mark Kirby
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/11/05 04:45:19
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I have set up instruments from Kontakt, but I'm limited to 8 input/outputs? why? Isn't there an update for that glitch? There is no glitch and no limit other than that imposed by Kontakt itself (i.e., 64 mono/32 stereo outputs). I just confirmed it by loading Kontakt with 64 mono outputs. I'm not sure what you're doing wrong, but that does loop back to the original question I asked to start this thread. There are three choices of Kontakt you can insert - 8, 16, and 32 stereo outputs (or double the number of mono outputs). These are not identified as such when you go to load Kontakt, however regarding what I said about customization, the number of outputs are identified in SONAR's plug-in manager, and you can rename them so you never have to wonder again which one you're inserting. See below. Maybe someday, programs will learn you. Until then, you have to learn programs. the problem is, when I set anything above 8 instruments up....the SONAR input/output selection shows gobbly gook above the 8 ins/outs....it's literally "s;dkfjkdowiejr" like that.... also, when I load Komplete Kontrol, it gives no options from the NI side nor Sonar on how to set up that entire quagmire of one midi input, many audio outputs....shouldn't there be a simple interface to say....ok, this instance of komplete kontrol just opened "x" amount of tracks, we need to route "x" amount of midi inputs/outputs to these so when this guy presses "instance" on the S88, WE know what he wants? c'mon, this could so be done if both sides worked on it together
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Anderton
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/11/05 05:36:20
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Mark Kirby
[the problem is, when I set anything above 8 instruments up....the SONAR input/output selection shows gobbly gook above the 8 ins/outs....it's literally "s;dkfjkdowiejr" like that.... Okay, you said you were "limited to 8 inputs/outputs" so that's what I answered. As to the new issue you brought up, having never experienced it I can't comment. All the fields work as they're supposed to and show aux, unassigned, St. 1R, etc. Maybe you need a Kontakt update or something. shouldn't there be a simple interface to say....ok, this instance of komplete kontrol just opened "x" amount of tracks, we need to route "x" amount of midi inputs/outputs to these so when this guy presses "instance" on the S88, WE know what he wants? I'm not sure any of this stuff "knows" what you want. Someone might want to add multiple MIDI tracks for driving each drum on a different track in a drum kit. Someone might not use Kontakt multi-timbrally but instead insert one instance per instrument. Someone else might want to put all channels in one MIDI track to create a Standard MIDI File. Although perhaps I don't understand exactly what you're expecting, it seems the solution would be to create a track template for the Kontakt setup exactly the way you want it, save it, and load it as needed.
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synkrotron
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/11/05 09:23:40
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Anyone here fly a helicopter?
Might sound a bit flippant, that, but what I am trying to get across is, SONAR is one hell of a tool that can do many things in many different ways. As has already been mentioned, take twenty experienced DAW users and you will have twenty totally different ways of working.
My lad is using Artist for the first time... Perhaps I should ask him. And the funny thing is, I was looking at a project of his just yesterday. Sound came out, no probs, but, based on something I had said to earlier in the year, which I don't think he fully understood, he had set his project up in a bit of a strange fashion.
I think that this demonstrates at least one massive problem here that, as much as you can do stuff with the GUI to make things easier to pick up, inevitably, you are going to have to either a) hit the manual, b) watch a video or c) get someone to show you something.
Personally, I have been able, over the years, both for professional and hobbyist pursuits, to pick up a piece of software, dig into the manual and learn at least as much as I need to do my job/hobby.
Not everyone is able to do that, for some reason or another, and outside help is needed. If this can be done within the DAW itself then that has to be great. I'm at a loss to think of anything in particular at the moment, mainly because I find it difficult to put myself back to the time when I was picking up a DAW for the first time (Cakewalk).
One problem that even manual readers are going to struggle with is the SONAR reference guide is currently running to 2348 pages. And the "beginners guide" doesn't start until page 127. So that is some kind of an indication of how powerful, and therefore difficult SONAR is to learn or use.
Also, because the reference guide is for all flavours of SONAR, it is an even bigger pain for Artist users to decipher what doesn't apply to them. The signal flow, for instance, on page 1701 covers everything. It would be nice to have a signal flow each flavour where it is different to the others.
TL;DR
Sorry, I can't think of anything in particular right now, but I'll mention it to my lad, who has recently purchased Artist, see what he says.
cheers
andy
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martins guit
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/11/05 10:48:47
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i stoped my choice on Sonar because his easier to use to me...
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Anderton
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/11/05 19:24:52
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synkrotron
Might sound a bit flippant, that, but what I am trying to get across is, SONAR is one hell of a tool that can do many things in many different ways. As has already been mentioned, take twenty experienced DAW users and you will have twenty totally different ways of working. A guy walks into Guitar Center and buys a Strat. A week later, he comes back in to return it. "This guitar sucks, I've had it for a week and I don't play at all like Jimi Hendrix." DAWs virtualize a studio that would have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, maybe even a million dollars, not that long ago. It's just as hard to learn a DAW as it was to walk into a studio cold and expect to use the console, patch bay, outboard gear, tape sync, etc. I think the biggest problem with "how to get people started" is there are many points of entry. One person might just want to work with loops, another record audio, another use MIDI instruments for scoring, another do audio for a commercial, another do narration with heavy edits and dialog, etc. And I agree a manual is super-daunting. so here are two tips. 1. Work with a program to the best of your abilities until you get hung up on something. At that point, search the documentation, find the answer to your specific question, and get back to work. Sure, you could come to the forum and ask...but the documentation will fill in other info that someone answering one question might not provide. 2. Like a musical instrument, you need to practice. Set aside 10 minutes and read a portion of the documentation that looks interesting. When I answer questions in the forum, I don't always have an answer. Instead, I try to do what people think they can't do, check into the documentation, and if I come up with an answer, I pass it along. In the process, I learn something.
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synkrotron
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/11/05 20:11:51
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Anderton
snip
Totally agree with all you said, Craig.
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abacab
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/11/05 21:56:43
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I think we all know that these things are complicated, and I think we can generally agree on why things are the way they are today. This thread provided some interesting viewpoints on the topic. The original question asked here was: What would make DAWs easier to use? I imagine that the first person that really figures this out in a significant and useful way will make millions... 
DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ...
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bdickens
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/11/06 18:01:25
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Not to be a ass, but what would make DAWs simpler to use would be for people to RTFM.
Face it. This is complicated stuff. There is a certain amount of prerequisite knowledge required. You might as well ask what would make physics easier. There is a whole host of stuff you need to know first.
I actually had a rather easy time of learning SONAR because I RTFM for everything, every step of tbe way, instead of diving in headfirst and making a bu ch of unwarranted assumptions first.
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chuckebaby
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/11/06 18:27:12
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bdickens
Not to be a ass, but what would make DAWs simpler to use would be for people to RTFM.
it does sound a bit arrogant that way, but you are right. I kind of like that one must learn the tricks of the trade in order to use a DAW. As it is now I feel ripped off that my generation had to actually learn an instrument and couldn't draw in notes, or use purchased loops to create their "Song". I don't know, maybe im jealous, haven't figured that one out yet. All I know is the second you open the door to a "Paint by number" DAW your going to lose your die hard following. And how many customers will you gain ? Probably about as many as you lose by dumming down a DAW. I've always looked at my craft as something I am very proud of and something I have earned with many years experience. Take that a way and give someone a way to make music with a remote control (Like a TV) and you are bound to PO some users. The Digital audio workstation has been the biggest double edge sword of all to us producers. While it has made life extremely easy for us, it has pulled food right from our mouths. People who ran a profitable studio have run in to hard times competing with "Everyone can be a producer in their bedroom". Sure the results are not as good as a pro studio is but people don't mind skimping on quality to save money. The gear I paid 1000's of dollars for was an investment and would easily pay for itself with paying clients. Not anymore. Where there used to be thousands and thousands of studios, now there are only 1/8 that and some of those studios specialize in send by mail mixing and mastering. So lets pull going to the studio to record our bare tracks out of the equation. not 1/4 people do that anymore. they record bare bones in there own studios and send those out to be warmed up with analog gear for a good mix. So back to our point... How do we make a simpler DAW ? We don't.
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Audioicon
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/11/06 18:31:56
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Not everyone can make music using Software and I think this idea that Software should be easier so that any Joe and start making music is as detrimental to music as drinking and driving is detrimental to others on a roadway.
Do we want to use the software for Professionals or the Software every body uses?
Checkout my new song: Playing on YouTube: EUPHORIA.
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abacab
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/11/06 18:40:38
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bdickens
Not to be a ass, but what would make DAWs simpler to use would be for people to RTFM.
Face it. This is complicated stuff. There is a certain amount of prerequisite knowledge required. You might as well ask what would make physics easier. There is a whole host of stuff you need to know first.
I actually had a rather easy time of learning SONAR because I RTFM for everything, every step of tbe way, instead of diving in headfirst and making a bu ch of unwarranted assumptions first.
I don't think that you are, but I think that you have just reiterated a point made over and over earlier in this thread. The other perspective is not everyone aspires to be a recording engineer. Some folks just want to write a song. You know, plug in their guitar and microphone, and hit record, or plug in a controller and play some virtual instruments, or make some beats. It should not require a degree to make that much happen. Mixing and mastering will take another level of expertise, but just making music shouldn't be all that difficult, assuming you know some basic music theory or can play an instrument. I've been using DAWs since before Sonar even existed, and have read the manual. Got that well covered. But I think today's DAWs should be easier for a first timer to get up and running. Or else it will just become an exclusive club for the experts. That's no way to market a product, though, and it is a fast track for a developer to going out of business. If you haven't noticed lately, there has been a big explosion in iPad apps for making music. Guitar companies are struggling. The DAW may become irrelevant in a few years, except for maybe to us old dinosaurs, if the products are not made more attractive to new users and the workflow they use to create with.
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Audioicon
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/11/06 18:51:48
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bdickens
Not to be a ass, but what would make DAWs simpler to use would be for people to RTFM.
Face it. This is complicated stuff. There is a certain amount of prerequisite knowledge required. You might as well ask what would make physics easier. There is a whole host of stuff you need to know first.
I actually had a rather easy time of learning SONAR because I RTFM for everything, every step of tbe way, instead of diving in headfirst and making a bu ch of unwarranted assumptions first.
Damn, you said just what I was thinking. IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE A PROFESSIONAL TOOL AND PROFESSION, GO GET THE HOME STUDIO!!!!  How do we make flying a space-shuttle easier. Stop the dumb down of recording to the lowest denominator.
Checkout my new song: Playing on YouTube: EUPHORIA.
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hbarton
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/11/06 19:58:28
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Hey Craig, Good question, and lots of great ideas here, but not to be negative - ain't going to happen! One of the problems is software is developed by "different" companies and the a programmer's ??sometimes?? natural tendency, is to create a great opus that will live forever (and to be honest, that is what the project manager wants too). In a previous life, I was a documentation engineer for a large printer company named after the founders (Bill & Dave). I had the great opportunity to develop the documentation for many of the printer products and it was a humbling experience to sit in a usability lab and watch a subject try to install the printer software and then use it. Most of the "better" engineers were humbled as they watched too (rather than yelling at the test subject). One solution that finally helped was to incorporate a standard format throughout the software and install process - it helped, but there was still a learning curve. Maybe, as some alluded to here, we should first define what makes a DAW simple? So which one is the best (opps) I mean simplest? I hear all the fanboys starting to yell at those test subjects! Maybe we need a "common standard" for DAWs, but darn, standardizing can make things dull and hard to sell (now I hear all of those Marketeers yelling at the test subjects)  . Maybe we should outlaw all but one DAW and everyone will learn only one! Maybe one needs to pass a driver test before you can "operate" a DAW? - ouch I think I just stepped on a hornets nest! But back to your question... as I said, ain't going to happen. Who is at fault, probably everyone. Some companies don't want to spend money on that silly documentation stuff - using their product should just come naturally (plus we need to get the next revision out before next week). Oh yea, then there is the old cliche - you can lead most horses to water, but you can't make them RTFM  Sorry for the rant, but just my $00.02, h
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chuckebaby
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Re: What Would Make DAWs (Not Just SONAR) Easier to Use?
2017/11/06 21:30:50
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It seems like the general consensus is the same and reminds me of a good comparison.....
Don't give out Happy meals with a Pilots license as the toy.
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