Sepheritoh
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What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
OK. I tried to search help for it, but I do not have a help file to search. There is a new warning ligtht on my channel strip. Right below where it says Prochannel and the track name. There are 2 buttons. The first says Post, I assume meaning my channel strip is post or pre fader depending on if it is blue (which does not entirely make sense) and the Global on or off button, usually blue, I assume meaning my prochannel is working or not. Then there is a strange thing in between those two, which sometimes light up orrange, I assume i is a warning light. Sometimes it goes red and will not reset itself like any normal warning light does. Also it warns me even at -12db about something I am not sure about. Beside, why do I then have the warning light on the fader signal lights?
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Beepster
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/22 13:45:16
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I think that's telling you if the PC is being overloaded. Red = bad.
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Sepheritoh
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/22 13:51:00
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Beepster
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/22 13:55:27
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I'm still learning myself but if you have a lot of effects or high EQ settings on an already hot track that can push you into clipping territory. That's why gain staging is important. I could however be completely wrong and obviously that was a rather crude and vague "explanation" but I really don't think you want that thing turning red. Cheers.
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Beepster
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/22 13:57:15
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And check all your effects and PC modules. Your actual track meter may not be clipping but something else in the chain might be or the accumulation of everything is pushing the PC too far. Hopefully someone smarter than I will come along and explain because now I'm curious myself.
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jb101
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/22 14:01:51
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If it goes red it means at least one of the modules is being overloaded. Even if the signal going into prochannel is low, it can be boosted by a compressor or eq, so that it overloads the next module. You can see which one it is by checking the clip light on each module.
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jb101
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/22 14:04:08
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Gain staging is made a lot easier now with fxchains. You can load an empty module in and use the input/output sliders to reduce the signal.
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Beepster
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/22 14:04:51
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Woo hoo! I was kind of right. ;-D
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jb101
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/22 14:05:54
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Beepster Woo hoo! I was kind of right. ;-D You were verry right, Beepster.
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Beepster
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/22 14:07:37
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I just might be getting the hang of all this stuff, aye? Now if I could only get my machine to spit out money I'll be set. :-p
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jb101
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/22 14:10:18
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I'm still waiting on the Prochannel TalentBooster Module(Tm).
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Beepster
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/22 14:23:37
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Sepheritoh
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/22 14:23:51
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Thanks. These replies really helps. My vocal track is going red, so that is VERY bad. hunting it down like you describe, I find the Breverb is a problem. Taking the dry or wet faders down kinda leaves me with a very wimpy vocal signal. I really have such a learn about this gain staging. Thanks. At least knowing I have a problem and what the problem is, gets me closer to solving it.
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sharke
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/22 14:23:56
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Keeping the ProChannels from overloading can be a frustrating business. You really have to keep your eye on everything at all times. The hardest one to maintain is the Master ProChannel, because it's affected by the outputs of all of your tracks. At least with a track ProChannel you can pretty much work out what's overloading it instantly by looking at the lights on the modules (although the FX Chain light doesn't appear to work...has anyone else noticed this?) Sometimes an audio clip or loop will overload a ProChannel right out of the box at the first stage. In these cases, an FX Chain gain slider won't fix things. You have to use the gain pot at the top of the channel. I've seen a few of the Cakewalk content loops overload the PC with all modules turned off. One thing to remember is that a track's fader won't affect that track's ProChannel gain staging, but the sum effect of all the track faders will affect the master ProChannel. Sometimes it can be really hard to maintain a balance. On the track I'm working on right now, I thought I had a good mix balance with nothing clipping, but there was one note on a synth that kept pushing the master ProChannel into the red. The same note, every time. Turning down that synth a little stopped it happening, but then it was too low in the mix. It's frustrating because the master ProChannel can be clipping while the master channel itself is nowhere near clipping. I tried putting an FX chain in the PC and lowering the gain a little, but that didn't work. The actual signal going into the PC was too hot from the get go. So I had to turn every track down by the same amount. Problem solved. It's probably not worth worrying about "occasional" red lights too much until you're really ready to finish mixing, because you can spend ages trying to gain stage everything and then you do something else to the arrangement or play with EQ or saturation and then it's clipping again. Most of the time when that red light is going off, I don't actually hear any difference. The worst culprits for overloading a PC in my opinion, are the tube saturation and saturation knob modules. I usually find myself turning the output of the tube saturation module right down. I'm also finding it necessary to turn the output of synths way down. The Z3TA+2 synth is crazy, I usually have to have the master volume turned down to 20-30% in order to prevent overloading.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Sepheritoh
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/22 14:40:53
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That makes a lot of sense what you say. I can solve the Breverb problem, but then the console emulator clips and I can not solve that one without turning the track so low it sucks. So much to learn.
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sharke
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/22 14:46:52
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Do you have the Breverb on a separate bus, or on the track itself?
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Sepheritoh
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/22 14:50:47
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Sepheritoh
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/22 14:56:55
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OK. Leading on from your question I took it out and placed it on an bus with an insert. At least Breverb is OK now and the console emulator clips only occasionally - I can try to solve that with the compressor. It does not sound the same at all now, so I'll have to play around with the settings, but at least that problem seems to have a sollution. I must just find it. Thanks.
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sharke
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/22 15:29:47
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It's a good idea to have a separate reverb bus (make sure the reverb is set to 100% wet and 0% dry) that way you can send as many tracks to it as you like and they will all sit in the same "space." It also saves on processing power. You control the amount of reverb for each track by balancing your track fader with the send volume. As for the console emulator, do you have the trim turned all the way up?
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Sepheritoh
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/22 15:33:03
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I left the emulator at the default value - which by now is not close to that anymore after I (seemingly randomly in pannic) twiddled knobs to make the problem go away (or more likely worse). The gain is now knocked way down.
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sharke
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/22 16:15:56
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Trouble is, the lower you set the trim on the console emulator, the less of an effect is has. If the console emulator is overloading, then you need to follow the ProChannel module chain backwards from it until you find the offending module, and turn that one down (or put an FX chain module before it so you can use the gain sliders on it). Remember also that any effects that you have in an effects chain need to have their outputs correctly set as well.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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jb101
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/22 17:08:30
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The first thing you need to do is adjust the input gain - a lot of soft synths/drum modules run too hot. Many compressors have make up gain which can be turned down. The quad EQ is one module that benefits from an empty FXchain to compensate. It is also better with EQ to cut, rather than boost, so if you're having to boost a lot, it's worth re-recording or re-working the source material anyway. Gain staging does seem to be especially important with the Console Emulator. It can seem to exacerbate the effect. Also, the trim and drive knobs on the console emulator do not work as they may at first appear. According to Overloud, their developer, the Console Emulator emulates the summing characteristics of a console. The drive controls how much of the signal goes into saturation, and the trim knob affects how much the emulator effect is applied to the sound. So the trim does not act like the input trim on a desk, and shouldn't be used to gain stage.
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Sepheritoh
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/23 00:29:20
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Thank you. The advice you guys gives is worth millions. I solved this one, and understand better how pro channel works.
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Anderton
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/23 00:39:01
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I'm a little late to the party, but can confirm there's some great advice in here. I find it crucial to avoid red-lighting any of the pro channel modules. You're okay until it lights solid red. If you have a mix where there's red-lighting going on, getting rid of it can make a HUGE difference in terms of cleaning up the sound, especially (as noted previously) if you're using the Console Emulator. If the input to the pro channel is excessively hot, in addition to the input gain control, you can also use clip envelopes to reduce the amount of signal. Bear in mind that altering the signal going into the pro channel will affect any processors that depend on input level, like dynamics and amp sims.
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Beepster
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/23 10:50:35
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It is also better with EQ to cut, rather than boost, so if you're having to boost a lot, it's worth re-recording or re-working the source material anyway. Apparently I've been EQing wrong. I pretty much always have to boost certain frequencies. I do remove some stuff to get rid of undesirable tinniness or noise but for the most part I'm turning up the lows a bit, the highs usually quite a bit (to give them "air") and then on one of the mid freq's I'll try to give it all a bit more presence. A perfect example is my vocal tracks. My mics kind of suck and kind of sound like I'm singing into a phone with no EQ. I end up shaping it all with the EQ until it sounds good and watch the levels to make sure nothing is clipping. It seems to work but I've seen the whole turn stuff down concept over and over again. Am I supposed to be able to get the same results? Like instead of turning those frequencies up turn down the freqs where normally I'd have them sitting on the line? Proper EQing is something I need to learn A LOT about. Currently I'm just twisting knobs until it sounds okay. Kind of the spray and pray method of EQing. Not very professional.
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sharke
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/23 11:14:34
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I sometimes boost to give a part more clarity or make it stand out more in a mix, but I only ever boost 1 or 2dB. I cut a lot more often, and usually by larger amounts. First thing I do is a wide sweep a high-Q maximum boost, to locate a problem frequency, and I'll cut that quite heavily. Then I high pass filter as much as I can without the instrument losing weight, and make some gentle cuts in areas in which it's fighting for space with another instrument. But I have so much to learn about EQ, mainly in the listening department.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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sharke
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/23 11:20:12
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Beepster, might be worth getting yourself a one month subscription to Lynda.com sometime, and watching as many of their mixing courses as you have time for. They have a guy called Brian Lee White who has done some excellent courses on general mixing, as well as EQ and compression. He uses Pro Tools but the principles are of course the same. I learned so much about basic EQing etc from him, he's an excellent teacher. In fact I could do with watching them again as a refresher because I didn't even come close to taking it all in.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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SuperG
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/23 11:29:32
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Beepster And check all your effects and PC modules. Your actual track meter may not be clipping but something else in the chain might be or the accumulation of everything is pushing the PC too far. Hopefully someone smarter than I will come along and explain because now I'm curious myself. Definitely. It's important to early on set your track and bus meters to pre-fader in order to properly set the gain trims to prevent clipping. Next, if you have plugins which do not have output level controls, you'll need to set the meters pre-fader post plugin to check again for clipping. Finally, once you've done the whole gain staging rigamarole, then can you switch over to post fader metering to view relative outputs...
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Jonbouy
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/23 11:55:01
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sharke I sometimes boost to give a part more clarity or make it stand out more in a mix, but I only ever boost 1 or 2dB. I cut a lot more often, and usually by larger amounts. First thing I do is a wide sweep a high-Q maximum boost, to locate a problem frequency, and I'll cut that quite heavily. Then I high pass filter as much as I can without the instrument losing weight, and make some gentle cuts in areas in which it's fighting for space with another instrument. But I have so much to learn about EQ, mainly in the listening department. You've got it when EQ'ing the listening part is important. I wouldn't worry too much about what you've must have heard from elsewhere about boosts being a bad thing, it's one of those mythical 'don't do's' seem to arise out of nowhere. The point of an EQ is to adjust the emphasis of certain frequencies on a track in relation to others, the filters work as well boosting as they do when cutting. I have no qualms about boosting +10 db (sometimes even more) for a sweet spot on a particular sound if that's how to get the frequency relationships right on that particular part. Where it might be an issue is on your final mix if you are needing to make anything other than small adjustments up or down then you need to look further back at the track level. Slightly off the main topic I know but it just struck me as worth mentioning after seeing what you put and again it all comes back to the idea of getting the gain staging right at the outset. Obviously you need to check your output levels after each element because adjustments like that are going to make a big difference to what is coming out of an EQ or whatever to what went in and level wise you'll want to keep things as consistent as you can through the chain.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Beepster
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Re:What is that strange light in my channel strip doing?
2012/11/23 12:05:28
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Great stuff, guys. I can't wait to be settled in my new studio so I can just shut out the world and really start focusing on these types of in depth subjects. I can't focus properly here. Cheers.
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