djwayne
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/01 17:45:22
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Studio One and virtual synths was an easy decision for me...no more hardware synths yay...I've got three of them with burned out LED screens making them useless. Have you priced them lately compared to virtual synths and sound modules ??
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Markubl2
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/01 18:22:43
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☄ Helpfulby anydmusic 2018/01/01 20:05:55
No doubt hardware is more expensive that software. Sometimes, I just prefer the immediacy of the hardware.
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rbrodbec
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/01 18:43:21
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Can't do the dongle, ever. I did the ilok thing swore never again so that eliminated cubase almost out of the shoot.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/01 19:38:59
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rbrodbec It can but it looks like you have to change the msb/lsb calculation versus how you use it in the track inspector which is ridiculous. No .ins file makes it almost unusable for outboard midi gear at least from a workflow perspective IMHO. If using softsynths it's not a problem. Opinion only not fact. I still cannot understand why you don't just set your external synths on the sounds you want to hear. It sounds to me like the instrument definitions fan boys are just too lazy to be able to set their external synths on the sounds they want. Or they can't. More to the point. Sounds like they cannot edit the patches either as well. The only thing with this is you have to be familiar with the OS for each hardware synth you have but then again you should be. If you are not in top of how all your hardware synths work and operate then you should not be using them. It keeps your brain active too. I use 8 powerful external instruments and have no issues auditioning sounds, editing sounds and just plain leaving the sounds set after doing that. You actually don't need any program changes at all. I find it is easier not to use them. That way they won't be switching sounds when you don't want them to. Even if you turn everything off and come back the next day, all my synths will bring up the sound exactly as you left it too. Most hardware synths do this now. When you are ready you just print your external synths to audio. And if you do create a patch all you need to do is save it somewhere in the synth itself. And make a note in Studio One etc that you have used it. You can name midi events in Studio One to anything you want. No limit of the length of the name either. I usually put where the sound lives in that first event name on the track.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Markubl2
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/01 19:46:31
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☄ Helpfulby anydmusic 2018/01/01 20:08:00
Jeff, though I appreciate your almost religious zeal for S1, you may need to realize that not everyone uses hardware the same way you do. Your way is not right nor wrong, same as my way is not right nor wrong. It's just different. S1 simply can't handle the outboard workflow that some people use. Whether or not you understand it is not the issue - some people (like me) want those features. You make too many assumptions based on your specific workflow. I gave S1 a good shot - I really wanted to like it, but Cubase was just better for me. -An instrument definition fan boy
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rbrodbec
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/01 19:51:03
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☄ Helpfulby anydmusic 2018/01/01 20:08:46
The xv5080 can produce up to 32 "sounds" at the same time. It can run tracks of sounds at once, there is no set it to one sound that would be silly. It's a multitimbral device only limited to the sounds you select and if they are poly or mono (will impact the 32 patches you can run at a time). It's loaded with 100's of instruments plus all the performance mode selections, plus my add in cards, plus my user created patches.
I got it working but it is definitely a pita, that is not opinion brah, that is a fact.
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djwayne
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/01 19:54:30
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Jeff Evans
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/01 20:01:55
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I get that you have chosen Cubase for its powerful midi capability. No issues there. But to choose another DAW purely based in Studio One's lack of instrument definitions is just plain dumb. I just believe the moment you have any sort of hardware synth living in your studio you really need to learn it, understand it and be able to use it to its full. Just switching sounds remotely is not really maximising the use of that machine. I personally think its fun too getting into the OS systems of these things. They are all different. Also I am within reach of my hardware synths too from where I am sitting making the job of setting up sounds on each one pretty easy. As the late great Edgar Froese from Tangerine dream said he never uses factory presets because the guy next door has the same presets. Once you really start either editing patches or making them from scratch then that is when the music will start to sound original. I get that not everyone wants to do that for sure but how hard is it to simply select a patch on the from panel of the machine you are using. And what about the situation when you might have thousands of patches for an instrument like the Roland JD800 that only has an internal memory of 64. Well it means you have to start loading them in, bank by bank and auditioning them. If you only use the 64 patches for your Roland JD800 then that is really limiting the use of that machine. You are missing out on the other thousands of patches for it. Hardware synths require an approach to use them to their fullest. And it aint just leaving their patch memories where they are and using instrument definitions either. Oh and what happens if you have got a synth that there are no instrument definitions for! Are you going to throw it away then. Setting up multi timbral things is yes a little harder for sure but still it is no big deal. Some of my hardware makes this a snap. Others take a little longer for sure but it can be done. You can save those setups too and recall them pretty easily. If you have multiple synths I prefer to get each one only doing one sound per midi port. They always sound better that way anyway.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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djwayne
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/01 20:17:19
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No I have a different point of view. I like presets. The more the merrier. Why ?? Because I can call up a sound that is familiar to me without spending hours and hours tweaking knobs to get one particular sound. Then try coming back 6 months later to rework the song and try to re-create your special sound...almost impossible. Presets can be fun. I took a preset of Van Halen's famous Jump intro solo, and put it to use in a completely different song, and it came out great for me. That particular sound worked great in my lead part. Nothing else I tried worked as good. So what if that sound has been used before....think of it this way,how many piano players play the same piano sound, or guitar players playing guitars with similar sounds.....why do synth sounds have to be all different ??
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Markubl2
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/01 20:25:41
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☄ Helpfulby anydmusic 2018/01/01 20:54:35
Again Jeff, please don't make assumptions: Fact - I didn't choose Cubase over Studio One because S1 lacked support for definition files. I picked it because I liked it better overall. Fact - I rarely use presets - I love programming sounds from scratch. Then I store them in user memory - which I can then choose with a definition file. Fact - It is not just about changing patches. Cubase has the ability to create device panels as well - very useful. Especially if your synths are not within easy arm's reach. Fact - I know my hardware well. Don't assume that because someone wants to use a definition file to change patches, they don't know their hardware. That is a ridiculous assumption. >Oh and what happens if you have got a synth that there are no instrument definitions for! Are you going to throw it away then. Don't assume people just troll the internet to find definition files. I wrote my own Sonar Instrument definition files, and then created my own Cubase patch scripts for every one of my four pieces of hardware. From scratch. One thing you and I agree on - it is a blast to play around with synths. They all have their own unique characteristics and idiosyncrasies.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/01 20:26:22
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djwayne Then try coming back 6 months later to rework the song and try to re-create your special sound...almost impossible. Wrong. All you do is simply make a note in your DAW somewhere as to what sound you used and where it was stored. Then in fact when you pull it up it will sound identical. I am not against presets either. Yes many will sound great and be perfect for the job at hand so then use them for sure. In those cases it is very easy to note where they live. Even if they are in a bank somewhere that is not normally in your machine. I also have Sonic Projects too BTW and it is a killer instrument. I have owned many real Oberheims in my day and I really know how they sound and this is amazing in its sound. The Arturia Matrix 12 is also pretty excellent too.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Jeff Evans
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/01 20:35:38
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Many of my hardware instruments have editors available. That can actually run not inside Studio One but along side it. So editing patches is actually pretty easy in this mode. There is an amazing editor for the Kurzweil PC3K too which has a pretty nice GUI. JV2080 has a nice editor too. The editors cover every single aspect of the machine. Probably more so that what Cubase might provide. Not sure. I still like editing patches on the machine itself. Especially the JD800 which has a huge front panel and allows you to edit even while it is being sequenced. Something I find is invaluable for fine tune patches within your music. Great to see you like making patches too. Layering is also something that is very powerful. Once you start to layer say three or 4 really nice synths with big polyphonic patches on them then you start getting into some amazing territory. Instrument definitions won't cut a layer either. The only way really is to make notes in your DAW about the 3 or 4 patches that are used in the layer, where they are and how loud each one might be.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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djwayne
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/01 20:40:56
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I still have the JV-1080 with expansion cards, JV-880, Emu Vintage Keys, Proteus One,and Proteus Two. I don't miss all those midi and audio cables one bit. I even eliminated a mixing board when I switched to virtual synths and sample programs. Everything is wired inside my computer. No muss, no fuss. My workflow is so much easier to deal with now. They were great back in the day, but virtual instruments and sample programs have come a long way over the years.
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anydmusic
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/01 20:52:20
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☄ Helpfulby tenfoot 2018/01/02 02:27:32
Assuming that those who prefer having the ability to fully define their MIDI instruments do not program their own sounds is a logical fallacy. It also wrong to assume that Instrument Definitions are static both Sonar and Cubase support multiple definitions for each instrument making it easy to send SYSEX banks to an instrument and load the definitions associated with the sounds. Personally I would not want start pressing buttons on a hardware module to find a sound to capture an idea just as I would not want to be limited to a preset sound for that idea once captured. I like being able to search for sounds within the DAW and I'm prepared to spend some time maintaining my definitions so that I can benefit from this function. If Studio One had been the only option available to replace Sonar then I would have had to change this aspect of my workflow BUT it is not the only option and I went for an option that supports instrument definitions. Of course there was a lot more to my choice but, like others, I made a choice based on what mattered to me and not what mattered to others and definitely not based on their opinions.
Graham Windows 10 64 bit - Intel i7-4790, 16GB, 2 x 256GB SSD Cubase 9.5 Sonar Platinum (Rapture Pro, Z3TA 2, CA2A, plus some other bits) Delta 24/96, UAD 1, UA25 EX, 2 x MidiSport, IKMultiMedia - (SampleTank 3, Miroslav 2, Syntronik, TRacks 5, Modo Bass), Band In A Box, Sound Quest, VS Pro, Kinetic, Acid, Sound Forge, Jammer Waves MaxxVolume, IR 1, Aphex Enhancer, Abbey Plates Korg Legacy, VStation, Bass Station
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djwayne
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/01 20:58:34
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☄ Helpfulby anydmusic 2018/01/01 21:00:47
That's the cool thing about music, you're free to do whatever you want....some people choose acoustic guitars, some people choose electrics, they're both right. Whatever floats your boat.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/01 21:04:16
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djwayne I still have the JV-1080 with expansion cards, JV-880, Emu Vintage Keys, Proteus One,and Proteus Two. I don't miss all those midi and audio cables one bit. I even eliminated a mixing board when I switched to virtual synths and sample programs. Everything is wired inside my computer. No muss, no fuss. My workflow is so much easier to deal with now. They were great back in the day, but virtual instruments and sample programs have come a long way over the years. I had all those too but in the end I ended up with a JV2080 with a bunch of expansions in. The front panel is much better and it holds 8 expansions as opposed to 4 in the JV1080. Navigating presets is a breeze too on the JV2080. I agree with you on virtual instruments. I have probably well over 150 of them now. Most of them going into territory the hardware cannot even imagine. I also use Roland JD800 and a Kawai K5000W which is also one weird sound synth. Have not quite heard anything like it actually in the virtual world either. I still have a big Emu sampler too, E5000 Ultra. All those Proteus sound banks are available for it and they all load up and sound great. You can edit the sounds though and the effects also sound pretty nice too. The editors I mentioned also allow you to send sounds and search them from your computer. That is the way around it. Studio One does not handle SYSEX but an editor running in tandem with it will. Because the editor is addressing the synth directly and not through Studio One. The editors have all the memory patches listed and will act like instrument definitions. What the hardware is great for though is creating a wall of sound over midi while your DAW does not even break a sweat. If I put all my hardware into multi timbral mode I could get something like 100 layers of music all playing at once! Studio One also has rock solid timing over external midi as well. Especially through an 8 MIDI output port device. Cubase and Logic are also excellent in this regard too.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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djwayne
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/01 21:15:02
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100 layers at once....yes I used to do all that kind of stuff too, Spent hours and hours setting it all up. Now with Studio One and my Virtual instruments, I can set up 6 tracks in minutes and end up with a full orchestra song.......here's an example.... https://soundcloud.com/dj...oves-somebody-sometime
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rbrodbec
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/01 22:11:09
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So to summarize: If you have external multitimbral midi devices and you want to layout tracks using those devices you need to per track:
Have the MSB, LSB and Program Change: To use the patch bank # it is MSB*128 + LSB, this is entered per track along with the program change #
To switch program change using midi automation in the track you need: 100/128 * MSB for the MSB parameter LSB Value Program Change Value
This is not the process (that's another thread ha) but just the data you need for every bank/program change.
I believe I am correct else I just wasted a week.
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soens
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/02 04:06:19
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soens ...you can switch patch voices within the same Bank as often as you like, in the same track. AFAIK, Sonar cannot do that. Sonar CAN do this too. I forgot about the Insert Bank/Patch Change, which can change bank AND patch changes as often as you want. It's a bit more tedious entering each change thru a menu driven dialog box, but it's there making Sonar better than DAWs not using Instrument Definitions. Cubase uses controller nodes to make PRV voice changes, which is better but for some reason it had trouble selecting the actual voice I told it to select.
post edited by soens - 2018/01/02 04:32:18
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soens
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/02 04:25:21
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rbrodbec So to summarize: If you have external multitimbral midi devices and you want to layout tracks using those devices you need to per track:
Have the MSB, LSB and Program Change: To use the patch bank # it is MSB*128 + LSB, this is entered per track along with the program change #
To switch program change using midi automation in the track you need: 100/128 * MSB for the MSB parameter LSB Value Program Change Value
This is not the process (that's another thread ha) but just the data you need for every bank/program change.
I believe I am correct else I just wasted a week.
Depends on your device. My SQ1 doesn't use MSB/LSB. It has 2 internal banks and 2 card banks, 124-127. In SO3 I have to check Program and set Bank to 0, Prog. to 124, and insert a controller node in the PRV to set the voice#. Or I can set Bank to 0 and Prog. to the voice# and change the SQ1's bank (124-127) manually from the SQ1. Sonar can change all of these settings on it's own.
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tenfoot
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/02 04:35:47
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This debate follows the same circular path accross multiple threads. It is plainly obvious to anyone that has used them all (and has no bias) that S1 is not as midi capable as Sonar or Cubase, but it is an excellent DAW. As soon as anyone points this out, someone comes along and erroneously claims that anything that you can't do in S1 is not worth doing, therefore studio one is equally as good, or even better since in the absence of all of those extra features you can concentrate on your music. Madness. I blame alternative facts:)
post edited by tenfoot - 2018/01/02 08:14:26
Bruce. Sonar Platinum 2017-09, Studio One 3.5.3, Win 10 x64, Quad core i7, RME Fireface, Behringer X32 Producer, Behringer X32 Rack, Presonus Faderport, Lemure Software Controller (Android), Enttec DMXIS VST lighting controller, Xtempo POK.
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rbrodbec
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/02 04:52:27
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I blame Gibson, those bastards hee hee
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Jeff Evans
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/02 05:03:59
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The facts are simple. If you have external synth hardware you can use Studio One with it very well. You don't need instrument definitions to do so. Anything to the contrary is simply rubbish. And as I said earlier, if you are really good at what you do, Studio One's midi implementation won't get in your way either.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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rbrodbec
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/02 05:12:54
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It does not matter how good you are at what you do, the external midi device implementation of S1 is burdensome. You can spin it all you want, it's a fact. But it's workable.
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/02 05:53:01
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soens
rbrodbec So to summarize: If you have external multitimbral midi devices and you want to layout tracks using those devices you need to per track:
Have the MSB, LSB and Program Change: To use the patch bank # it is MSB*128 + LSB, this is entered per track along with the program change #
To switch program change using midi automation in the track you need: 100/128 * MSB for the MSB parameter LSB Value Program Change Value
This is not the process (that's another thread ha) but just the data you need for every bank/program change.
I believe I am correct else I just wasted a week.
Depends on your device. My SQ1 doesn't use MSB/LSB. It has 2 internal banks and 2 card banks, 124-127. In SO3 I have to check Program and set Bank to 0, Prog. to 124, and insert a controller node in the PRV to set the voice#. Or I can set Bank to 0 and Prog. to the voice# and change the SQ1's bank (124-127) manually from the SQ1. Sonar can change all of these settings on it's own.
So transmitting program changes to physical hardware synths that include a bank+patch is the issue? Before I got rid of my Roland SC880 dual Sound Canvas, and Roland M-VS1 Vintage Synth modules, I was able to use my old Sonar instrument definitions in REAPER's "ReaControlMIDI" plugin (it can read Sonar .ins files directly), and I could access every patch in every bank in both those units by the patch names.
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tenfoot
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/02 08:15:11
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☄ Helpfulby anydmusic 2018/01/02 08:51:13
Jeff Evans The facts are simple. If you have external synth hardware you can use Studio One with it very well. You don't need instrument definitions to do so. Anything to the contrary is simply rubbish. And as I said earlier, if you are really good at what you do, Studio One's midi implementation won't get in your way either.
See. Happened again:)
Bruce. Sonar Platinum 2017-09, Studio One 3.5.3, Win 10 x64, Quad core i7, RME Fireface, Behringer X32 Producer, Behringer X32 Rack, Presonus Faderport, Lemure Software Controller (Android), Enttec DMXIS VST lighting controller, Xtempo POK.
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Jeff Evans
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/02 10:57:45
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Talking negatively about specific individual people means one is of poor mind. As opposed to challenging narrow thinking of some. They are two very different things. I see myself as someone in the later category. It is a positive thing to do. There others that agree I am sure. Lets talk ideas instead. If you have got great ideas and the determination to realise them, then you will arrive at that point. With any DAW in fact. They are all quite incredible these days. There are not so many differences between them. Sure some have a few features that some don't. Big deal. The reality is that they all will enable great ideas to be realised. There are more ways to skin a cat too. There will always be a way to get done what you need done. e.g. If you can't change your external synth patches with instrument definitions then maybe you might have to use the front panel! Ideas far transcend the features that are provided in any DAW. Way above. No DAW is really going to get in the way of the realisation process. What is sometimes being implied here is some DAW's just will not work and won't allow you to make your ideas materialise. That is the problem of the individual driving that DAW, poor thought process. What we have today compared to say what was around in 1980 is mind blowing. Studio One is one of many DAW's that will transform your great ideas and make them heard and appreciated. Back to the OP, the midi implementation in Studio One will also get you there too. I don't think it has stopped progressing either from what I can see.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2018/01/02 13:06:44
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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anydmusic
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/02 11:52:25
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☄ Helpfulby tenfoot 2018/01/02 12:04:59
Jeff Evans Talking about people means one is of poor mind. Lets talk ideas instead... And as I said earlier, if you are really good at what you do...
So rubbishing people because they have a different idea on how they want to work is OK?
Graham Windows 10 64 bit - Intel i7-4790, 16GB, 2 x 256GB SSD Cubase 9.5 Sonar Platinum (Rapture Pro, Z3TA 2, CA2A, plus some other bits) Delta 24/96, UAD 1, UA25 EX, 2 x MidiSport, IKMultiMedia - (SampleTank 3, Miroslav 2, Syntronik, TRacks 5, Modo Bass), Band In A Box, Sound Quest, VS Pro, Kinetic, Acid, Sound Forge, Jammer Waves MaxxVolume, IR 1, Aphex Enhancer, Abbey Plates Korg Legacy, VStation, Bass Station
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tenfoot
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/02 12:04:37
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Jeff Evans Talking about people means one is of poor mind........ That is the problem of the individual driving that DAW, poor thought process........ Anything to the contrary is simply rubbish....... But to choose another DAW purely based in Studio One's lack of instrument definitions is just plain dumb........
Jeff, I have in various threads seen you describe other peoples ideas as absurd, rubbish and stupid, all in defence of midi functionality that S1 does not have and that you do not seem to fully understand. Perhaps they just have a more complex workflow than you do. Let me try and explain just once more with what appears to be your favourite pronoun: one needs to be very careful when looking down from one's high horse and blindly defending one's cause, lest one comes off as arrogant, ignorant or just a bit of a knob.
Bruce. Sonar Platinum 2017-09, Studio One 3.5.3, Win 10 x64, Quad core i7, RME Fireface, Behringer X32 Producer, Behringer X32 Rack, Presonus Faderport, Lemure Software Controller (Android), Enttec DMXIS VST lighting controller, Xtempo POK.
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Markubl2
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Re: What's the Trouble With Studio One and MIDI?
2018/01/02 13:35:50
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Jeff's attitude towards this reminds me of a line in one of my favorite Moody Blue's song - "There is none so blind as those who will not see"
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