gbowling
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What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
In an effort to help the bakers understand what to work on, I thought it might be prudent to ask what things are the most difficult to do in sonar? What is your most time consuming and difficult task on most of your songs? For me, it's multitrack drum editing. I have become pretty expert in audiosnap, drum replacer, track groupings, and many other techniques for tightening up multitrack drums. But it still is a very time consuming and difficult process. In today's world where your smart phone can do voice recognition, it seems like there should be a better way. Actually it seems like there should be an automatic way. Even a novice can tell what the drum part is "suppose" to sound like, but attempts to have audiosnap or other tools automatically process an entire part frequently result in a part that is completely out of whack. This means you have to do a lot of manual editing, moving markers, and doing it beat by beat. Seems like there should be some sort of artificial intelligence or "drum recognition" that could take 12+ drum tracks and auto-correct them. gabo
post edited by gbowling - 2015/12/03 10:23:31
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John T
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 10:00:46
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Agree. This is long overdue some improvement.
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vanceen
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 10:10:02
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Moving around take lanes, especially moving take lanes from one track to another. They proliferate so fast that you run out of vertical screen space quickly and have to move groups of takes in jumps, i.e. drag, sroll, drag, scroll...
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BobF
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 10:30:19
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☄ Helpfulby williamcopper 2015/12/03 18:52:42
Selection/display/commands. - Selecting what I want selected and nothing more. Please don't ask me what should be done - Display and commands really belong together as display is a subset. Finding the right menu choice or key(s) for what I want to do. This is more of a slow-down for moderate and occasional tasks than things that get done multiple times a day. IMO, there are two things that would help this in a really big way. The first is to make existing menus and key(s) consistent. Don't exclude some track items from the top level Track menu while including them only in the arrange Track menu. There should either be one Track menu, or both should include all Track menu items. If 'D' toggles the Multidock between minimize and restore, make 'B' work the same way for the Browser. These are examples, not a small all-inclusive list. Specific to keys, explode the items available for keybinding to the max. This would allow users to bind keys to actions in a way that makes the most sense for their own individual workflow (and memory). THEN remove arbitrary limitations on the number of buttons available in the Control Bar Custom module. While you're at it, allow multiple Custom Modules so users can group custom buttons so that they match stages of workflow on an individual user basis. Might as well call these custom toolbars and make the full list of actions available to keybinding available for buttons as well 
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bapu
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 10:44:48
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What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?Coming up with good ideas that the masses will enjoy.
Ok, seriously... slip editing vocal tracks. I wish I could say chop up clips and remove all clips below -40db. Then I could solo the vocal track and extend a clip that got chopped off and just apply fades (in and out) where needed.
Maybe there is a way to do that but I could not be arsed to find it.
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jpetersen
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 11:07:23
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Slip editing all tracks. (I think there's a pattern emerging...?) It's made all the harder by strange bugs. Recently I tried Autocrossfade for the first time (didn't know it existed!) After a time of intense editing, the crossfade regions started to turn into clips, all by themselves! So that when I moved a clip away again, the crossover region stayed put. But even when auto crossfade is working fine, for some reason the fade regions stay in the clips when you move them apart. Not always what I want. So once again, manual work to correct an automatic feature that fails. Perhaps I could say the hardest for me are the bugs I run into whenever I try out something new. And they are not exotic things by any means. Yesterday I had to delete all the blank bars between the beginning and where the song actually starts, but I needed to keep the marker flag positions relative to the song. Cannot be done. Huh?!? Am I the first person ever to do something as basic as this? Sometimes I shake my head in dismay and wonder whether I am the only person really using Sonar.
post edited by jpetersen - 2015/12/03 11:19:44
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bapu
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 11:10:49
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jpetersen
Sometimes I shake my head in dismay and wonder whether I am the only
person really using Sonar.
So all of these posts in this entire forum are just you talking to yourself?
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John T
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 11:18:28
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jpetersen
Yesterday I had to delete all the blank bars between the beginning and where
the song actually starts, but I needed to keep the marker flag positions relative to the song.
Cannot be done. Huh?!? Am I the first person ever to do something as basic as this?
Sometimes I shake my head in dismay and wonder whether I am the only
person really using Sonar.
You can do that, I do it all the time editing spoken word stuff. You need to select the time range, and then use "delete special" on the edit menu. In the dialog box that comes up, tick all the options. You only need to do that once for each session, and it will retain the option choices after that.
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John T
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 11:20:07
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Oh, you probably don't want to tick "move by whole measures".
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JonD
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 11:20:52
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jpetersen
Am I the first person ever to do something as basic as this?
...
Sometimes I shake my head in dismay and wonder whether I am the only
person really using Sonar.
Well, how about posting the steps here, and seeing if these "bugs" are reproducible? That's what we try to encourage here. Personally, if I were running into these issues all the time I would want to know if these were reproducible bugs, or IF IT WAS JUST ME (IE. USER-ERROR).
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John T
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 11:21:46
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Auto-crossfade does do some odd stuff at times. It doesn't handle tracks with layers at all well.
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Anderton
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 13:12:38
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jpetersen
Yesterday I had to delete all the blank bars between the beginning and where
the song actually starts, but I needed to keep the marker flag positions relative to the song.
Cannot be done. Yes it can, and there are at least two ways to do it. Here are "step by step" descriptions. 1. Select the blank area in the timeline you want to cut. Note that because we're going to use Cut Special and Delete Hole, there has to be something in the blank area to cut - a dummy clip, automation node, marker, anything.  2. Choose Cut Special and make sure that both Markers and Delete Hole are checked. Click OK.  3. The Markers move with the clips.  Here's another option. 1. Select all, then drag in the timeline over what you want to move.  2. Choose File > Cut Special and make sure markers is checked. Click OK.  3. Delete all the tracks, otherwise SONAR will paste into new tracks (it does this as safety measure so you don't accidentally overwrite material you didn't want to lose). Then position the Now time where you want the material to start (e.g., the beginning to get rid of blank space), and choose Paste.  Furthermore, you can also cut and paste markers separately from the rest of the material. For example suppose you insert a measure at the beginning to extend the length, but forgot to check the Markers box so everything moved except the markers. Drag across the area in time line that contains the markers, choose Cut Special and check only Markers, then position the now time where you want to position the markers and choose Paste Special with only Markers selected.
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Midiboy
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 13:19:47
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vanceen
Moving around take lanes, especially moving take lanes from one track to another. They proliferate so fast that you run out of vertical screen space quickly and have to move groups of takes in jumps, i.e. drag, sroll, drag, scroll...
I'm trying to understand. Why would you move take lanes? That defeats their very purpose. Leave the take lanes and use comping to create the final track.
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Anderton
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 13:20:22
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☄ Helpfulby magik570 2015/12/16 16:26:59
JonD
jpetersen
Am I the first person ever to do something as basic as this?
...
Sometimes I shake my head in dismay and wonder whether I am the only
person really using Sonar.
Well, how about posting the steps here, and seeing if these "bugs" are reproducible? That's what we try to encourage here. Personally, if I were running into these issues all the time I would want to know if these were reproducible bugs, or IF IT WAS JUST ME (IE. USER-ERROR).
Based on a lot of the forum posts here, I'd say the hardest thing about SONAR is reading the documentation  . That's not being snarky, SONAR is really deep and you have to invest time into learning the program, just like any musical instrument. A lot of people simply don't have the time or desire to put that much work into learning the program. This isn't to say there isn't functionality that couldn't be improved (indeed like multitrack drum editing), but many times when people say something can't be done, it can be. Also, sometimes lack of familiarity with the program means people think something is hard to do because they've figured out some convoluted way to accomplish a function without realizing there's a simpler option, if only they knew about it.
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Beepster
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 13:50:31
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☄ Helpfulby lingyai 2015/12/16 21:54:17
Meh... audiosnap can actually do what you seem to want when used at an "advanced" level. The problem is any "quantize" function can only do so much. There are too many variables and without advanced AI the software can't anticipate exactly how up or I envision our parts to sound like. The closest you can get is "snapping" to a "groove". So aside from relatively simple material played reasonably in time there is only so much that a computer can do "automatically" before it goes in a completely different direction than the artist wants.
Whatever...
My personal beef with Sonar in this "hardest thing to do" category is automation. I always took for granted automation would be robust and logical like the rest of the program but it's not. Managing envelopes is a total nightmare and as soon as I started really digging into automation I ran into non stop roadblocks.
I think it is time for "Automation Tracks" or at least linkable envelopes so a single envelope can control multiple parameters (or editing one envelope will adjust another "linked" envelope in unison). Also there are lots of surprising bugs and limitations (such as certain parameters completely disobeying envelopes and even worse obeying them erratically tricking the user into thinking it's gonna work when it actually won't).
Seriously now that the rest of the program has had a lot of the more obvious/major bugs/feature dealt with the next major overhaul, IMO, should be how automation works.
1) Linking envelopes across lanes/tracks
2) Control groups writing envelopes for ALL parameters in the group... not just the current one in focus
3) Making sure ALL parameters that expose themselves to automation envelopes actually WORK (eg: the on/off button for PC FX Chain modules only works if the module is in focus during playback... WTF? There are other wacky irregularities as well)
There's other stuff too but those are the big ones.
The other thing would be to make external control mapping easier, more flexible and consistent. Seems we have multiple procedures/windows that need to be futzed with in different areas of the program when it could all be consolidated in one bulk procedure. Particularly the ACT/Transport stuff is kind of silly and limited but there's lots of other stuff too. The way Reaper handles external control is ideal. Kind of one stop shopping/programming for EVERYTHING (and let's you set keyboard bindings at the same time too).
So yeah... those be me beefs. Otherwise I'm pretty happy with Sonar as far as creative workflow.
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DRanck
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 14:06:42
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☄ Helpfulby lingyai 2015/12/16 21:54:09
Hardest for me is using staff view, so I don't.
I heavily use automation and I'd hardly call it a nightmare but id like to be able to record CC messages directly to automation lanes. Instead I have to record to clips and move them to automation lanes. Time waster for me.
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PJH
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 14:24:05
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gbowling
In an effort to help the bakers understand what to work on, I thought it might be prudent to ask what things are the most difficult to do in sonar?
What is your most time consuming and difficult task on most of your songs?
For me, it's multitrack drum editing. I have become pretty expert in audiosnap, drum replacer, track groupings, and many other techniques for tightening up multitrack drums. But it still is a very time consuming and difficult process.
In today's world where your smart phone can do voice recognition, it seems like there should be a better way. Actually it seems like there should be an automatic way. Even a novice can tell what the drum part is "suppose" to sound like, but attempts to have audiosnap or other tools automatically process an entire part frequently result in a part that is completely out of whack.
This means you have to do a lot of manual editing, moving markers, and doing it beat by beat. Seems like there should be some sort of artificial intelligence or "drum recognition" that could take 12+ drum tracks and auto-correct them.
gabo
I couldn't agree more. I've also been asking for the ability to time stretch multiple clips at once for a number of years now. That has to be the most time consuming thing for me in SONAR. Oh well.... maybe one day.
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stoutlyric
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 14:30:19
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Evrything beepster just said. Automation and control mapping.
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Soundwise
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 14:51:56
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1. Automation
Copying automation between soft synth and MIDI tracks. E.g., I automated one soft synth and need to copy this envelope to another track with a different synth. Data is pasted onto a destination track, but I can't find a way to assign it to a desired parameter.
2. Comping
After recording and comping is done I bounce comp to clip. But when this clip is trimmed, Sonar lets underlying takes to produce sound. When I trim a clip on a track, I want the trimmed space to remain silent, and the sound of underlying takes is not desired.
Yeah, there's a bunch of workarounds, but using workaround makes it hard and difficult, doesn't it?
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jpetersen
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 15:27:02
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Anderton said: >> Yes it can, and there are at least two ways to do it. Here are "step by step" descriptions. Craig, thank you, that works. Please don't think me ungrateful, but this is so typically Cakewalk. A simple task, a non-intuitive solution. My instinctive approach was the same as John T's, but if you do that, the Delete, Delete Special, Cut and Cut Special menus are: 1) Disabled (grey) if one or more of the tracks selected have audio somewhere (but outside the selected range) 2) Enabled if the selected tracks have NOTHING IN THEM AT ALL but if you click Delete, nothing happens. But there is almost certainly a reason why it must be so, as with the Clean Audio Folder and CWAF tools. Anderton said: >> Based on a lot of the forum posts here, I'd say the hardest thing about SONAR is >> reading the documentation Well, in my defense, not even scook knew this. He did, however, suggest turning off "Always Import Broadcast Waves At Their Timestamp" in Preferences>File>Audio Data and that cured the source of the initial problem. But how a mere mortal is supposed to know such a thing exists, what it is, that it is on by default and what the consequences of that setting are is beyond me. --- JonD said: >> Well, how about posting the steps here, and seeing if these "bugs" are reproducible? I do. I post my problem here on the forums. Other members (notably scook) then work through the bug with me and I test out their suggestions. Once we think we have it nailed, I work out a series of steps that reliably and as simply as possible, reproduce the bug. They try the steps on their systems and let me know if they all get the same result. I then write up a bug report. Typically this takes 2 or 3 iterations (days of discussion here on the forum) and on average one full working day all told. Some bugs I have not been able to reproduce, such as the Auto crossfade bug and the Copy>Paste Special/Link to original clips bug, and until I do, no point in reporting them. Some are reproducible but many things interact such as the automation lanes bugs. And some are totally, reliably reproducible such as the ctrl+slip-edit bug. --- bapu said: >> So all of these posts in this entire forum are just you talking to yourself? Sort of. I think it has to do with expectations. Some users report enthusiastically about completing a session with only a few crashes, others are annoyed because their particular hardware controller is not working properly in Sonar. But when I discover many people's daily routine is similar to mine, namely comping (in various guises), and I seem to be the only one encountering bugs, then I do wonder if I am using the same product.
post edited by jpetersen - 2015/12/03 15:41:56
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jpetersen
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 15:34:23
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...anyway. I have saved Craig A's solution. Because in a few months I am almost certain to have forgotten the details.
Craig, thank you.
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jpetersen
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 15:44:57
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Midiboy
vanceen
Moving around take lanes...
I'm trying to understand. Why would you move take lanes? That defeats their very purpose. Leave the take lanes and use comping to create the final track.
I also stumbled over this. I think I wanted to put the refrains (repeated 3 times in the song) on top of each other to fatten it up, and then copy that stack-of-3 to everywhere the refrain is sung. But the source was a single take.
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bitman
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 15:57:12
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Getting the stupid song I wrote to sound like I want it to.
But that's me, not the software. :-)
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panup
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 16:05:17
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My Hardest Things:
Take lanes. I got used to the old layers system. Take lanes may be nice for small track and lane amounts but not for multitracking real drumkit or a whole band. I'd rather use track folders.Take lanes eat too much screen estate and it's very impractical to keep them open unless editing single track.
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Beepster
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 16:22:11
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Soundwise
1. Automation
Copying automation between soft synth and MIDI tracks. E.g., I automated one soft synth and need to copy this envelope to another track with a different synth. Data is pasted onto a destination track, but I can't find a way to assign it to a desired parameter.
2. Comping
After recording and comping is done I bounce comp to clip. But when this clip is trimmed, Sonar lets underlying takes to produce sound. When I trim a clip on a track, I want the trimmed space to remain silent, and the sound of underlying takes is not desired.
Yeah, there's a bunch of workarounds, but using workaround makes it hard and difficult, doesn't it?
1) Are you pasting the automation envelope into an automation lane? If so just click on the Automation Lane's "filter" dropdown menu. That will show all available paramaters for the track. Look for the synth name, hover over it and a new menu will show up with all the parameters on that synth. Click on the appropriate one and your envelope will control that parameter (at least it should). 2) Try using the "Flatten Comp" procedure instead (right click on the visible composite "clip" in the parent track > Flatten Comp). That will bounce/mixdown and solo the comp. Otherwise you can just solo the lane your bounce ends up in and it will mute all the other gack in the track. I also do a lasso select of clips in lanes > set the now time to where I want to trim > press S for Split (at Now Time) to trim all my takes for exactly this reason. It makes editing/comping a little less noisy/chaotic. Cheers.
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Soundwise
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 16:50:43
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Beepster
Soundwise
1. Automation
Copying automation between soft synth and MIDI tracks. E.g., I automated one soft synth and need to copy this envelope to another track with a different synth. Data is pasted onto a destination track, but I can't find a way to assign it to a desired parameter.
2. Comping
After recording and comping is done I bounce comp to clip. But when this clip is trimmed, Sonar lets underlying takes to produce sound. When I trim a clip on a track, I want the trimmed space to remain silent, and the sound of underlying takes is not desired.
Yeah, there's a bunch of workarounds, but using workaround makes it hard and difficult, doesn't it?
1) Are you pasting the automation envelope into an automation lane? If so just click on the Automation Lane's "filter" dropdown menu. That will show all available paramaters for the track. Look for the synth name, hover over it and a new menu will show up with all the parameters on that synth. Click on the appropriate one and your envelope will control that parameter (at least it should). Thanks for your reply. I still can't figure out how to re/assign pasted automation. 
2) Try using the "Flatten Comp" procedure instead (right click on the visible composite "clip" in the parent track > Flatten Comp). That will bounce/mixdown and solo the comp. Otherwise you can just solo the lane your bounce ends up in and it will mute all the other gack in the track.
I also do a lasso select of clips in lanes > set the now time to where I want to trim > press S for Split (at Now Time) to trim all my takes for exactly this reason. It makes editing/comping a little less noisy/chaotic.
Cheers.
Yes, I know these workarounds, Flattening comp, freezing, recording or exporting tracks do just fine. Just wish there was an easier way to handle comp trimming.
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Beepster
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 17:01:53
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Soundwise
Beepster
Soundwise
1. Automation
Copying automation between soft synth and MIDI tracks. E.g., I automated one soft synth and need to copy this envelope to another track with a different synth. Data is pasted onto a destination track, but I can't find a way to assign it to a desired parameter.
2. Comping
After recording and comping is done I bounce comp to clip. But when this clip is trimmed, Sonar lets underlying takes to produce sound. When I trim a clip on a track, I want the trimmed space to remain silent, and the sound of underlying takes is not desired.
Yeah, there's a bunch of workarounds, but using workaround makes it hard and difficult, doesn't it?
1) Are you pasting the automation envelope into an automation lane? If so just click on the Automation Lane's "filter" dropdown menu. That will show all available paramaters for the track. Look for the synth name, hover over it and a new menu will show up with all the parameters on that synth. Click on the appropriate one and your envelope will control that parameter (at least it should).
Thanks for your reply. I still can't figure out how to re/assign pasted automation.
2) Try using the "Flatten Comp" procedure instead (right click on the visible composite "clip" in the parent track > Flatten Comp). That will bounce/mixdown and solo the comp. Otherwise you can just solo the lane your bounce ends up in and it will mute all the other gack in the track.
I also do a lasso select of clips in lanes > set the now time to where I want to trim > press S for Split (at Now Time) to trim all my takes for exactly this reason. It makes editing/comping a little less noisy/chaotic.
Cheers.
Yes, I know these workarounds, Flattening comp, freezing, recording or exporting tracks do just fine. Just wish there was an easier way to handle comp trimming.
Okay based on your screen cap... instead of pasting the envelope right into the target track open up your target track's Automation Lanes first and paste the envelope into a new/blank lane. Then change the edit filter on the lane. What is happening is you are pasting it into the track. You CAN... AFAIK also assing the envelope in the track as well by clicking on the TRACK edit filter then selecting automation and choosing the correct paramater but that is a guess. Also you probably want it in a lane anyway instead of being right in the parent track because that can get messy. Hopefully that makes sense. Cheers.
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jpetersen
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 17:07:24
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Sorry, completely OT: How are you guys managing to post pictures? When I try, all I get is text like this: [image]..[/image] And what are you using to produce animated screenshots? A picture is worth a thousand words. --- @Beepster - Thanks!
post edited by jpetersen - 2015/12/03 17:39:40
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Beepster
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 17:14:15
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jpetersen
Sorry, completely OT:
How are you guys managing to post pictures?
When I try, all I get is text like this: [image]..[/image]
And what are you using to produce animated screenshots?
A picture is worth a thousand words.
a) You need to upload your image to an "image host" like imageshack/photobucket (not straight from your computer). Take the image link the host provides for the pic, copy it, click on the "Image" button in the comment tools at the top of the comment box (here on the forum) then paste the link into the box. b) They are using screencapture software that can record desktop stuff. A program like "Snagit" will do what these guys are posting. Win10 supposedly has an internal screen recorder too so maybe that's why we are seeing more animated screenshots lately.
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Soundwise
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Re: What's the hardest thing you do in sonar?
2015/12/03 17:15:17
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Beepster
Okay based on your screen cap... instead of pasting the envelope right into the target track open up your target track's Automation Lanes first and paste the envelope into a new/blank lane. Then change the edit filter on the lane.
What is happening is you are pasting it into the track. You CAN... AFAIK also assing the envelope in the track as well by clicking on the TRACK edit filter then selecting automation and choosing the correct paramater but that is a guess. Also you probably want it in a lane anyway instead of being right in the parent track because that can get messy.
Hopefully that makes sense.
Cheers.
It doesn't get pasted into a lane. I can't figure how to paste automation from one track to another without it becoming orphaned... Assign envelope menu displays only controls for a PC EQ. Is this a bug then?
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