spacey
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Re: Which DAWs do you think will be the survivors?
2013/07/03 19:52:15
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dubdisciple
spacey
If Sony did focus on Vegas as a full blown DAW they'd deliver a deadly blow to many...not sure who
would survive that.
As a long time user of Sonic Foundry/ Sony Products, i would say that's not likely and even if they did the chance of success is not as high as you would think. Sony has already failed in the DAW department. Acid was great (and I still use it at times for certain things), but Sony never quite figured a way to move it forward. Thus Vegas, Acid and Sound Forge are basically using the same audio technology Sonic Foundry developed over ten years ago with very minor changes. The core effects in all three programs are still the old FX 1, 2 and three, Wave Hammer, Acoustic Mirror and Noise Reduction that they used to sell as stand alone DX plugins over 10 years ago. The only additions have been third party. It's a testament to Sonic Foundry that these effects have stood the test of time (although Acoustic mirror is ridiculously slow), but Sony not only has failed to move audio features forward significantly, but seem content to let these products lay stagnant. I have little faith Sony has the vision or desire to produce a full fledged DAW. Have you ever used Midi in Acid?
Don't let the fact that Vegas has outstanding audio for a video editor lull you into thinking Sony can create a great DAW. The audio features were simply inherited from Sonic Foundry's decision to build a video editor on top of a great, but somewhat dated audio engine. Sony's superiority to other video editor's is somewhat deceiving because most higher end video projects handle almost every aspect of video/film production in separate applications. You will not find Hollywood pipelines where the editor and sound guy are one and the same. This works in Vegas' favor in lower end productions. I love Vegas and have used it for one man jobs i need to do quickly. Yet, for critical work, I am more than likely editing in another program and mixing sound in another. Vegas fills an important niche but will llikely never be a DAW.
Well you could have just said you didn't agree rather than suggesting that I'm fooling myself. I say they haven't been focused on audio/midi and then you ramble on supporting the statement. And who are you to say what Sony could or couldn't do with audio/midi editing if they decided to be a serious contender? (I don't think they will either...been using their stuff for years and hoping but I don't see it happening.) Do you really think that I would doubt their capabilities on your post? Sorry, no offense but....not today. I can imagine them offering an audio/midi/video editing setup, if they chose to do so, much more than I could imagine Cakewalk offering video editing with....whatever.
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grupps
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Re: Which DAWs do you think will be the survivors?
2013/07/04 00:30:54
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I have been using sonar since version 5. I am convinced it will not survive without a major rewrite. The more releases I update to, the less stable it has become for me, even with computer upgrade.
The survivor for me will be the most efficient and functional with all the latest features. The best I have tried is Presonus Studio One. I have never been able to do everything on the fly with no glitches or hiccups in Sonar. Studio one is a very young DAW, but has already overtaken most of the old faves.
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Ian Ferrin
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Re: Which DAWs do you think will be the survivors?
2013/07/04 02:10:58
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grupps
I have been using sonar since version 5. I am convinced it will not survive without a major rewrite. The more releases I update to, the less stable it has become for me, even with computer upgrade.
I agree. I keep looking for Sonar X2b. They probably need to clean up the code. If I were running a commercial studio, I'd be using Sonar 8.5 or another DAW (I skipped X1). There's just too many issues w X2. Just yesterday it crashed twice. grupps
Studio one is a very young DAW, but has already overtaken most of the old faves.
I'd like to see evidence of that. I checked out it's user forum and there's very little discussion going on. Now Reaper on the other hand seems to have a very involved user base. It rivals this forum, which is impressive.
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Rain
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Re: Which DAWs do you think will be the survivors?
2013/07/04 02:29:53
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spacey
If Sony did focus on Vegas as a full blown DAW they'd deliver a deadly blow to many...not sure who
would survive that.
And funnily enough, Vegas did start its life as a DAW in the late 90s. It was very impressive and had many of the things I and others wanted to see in Cakewalk Pro Audio. Contrarily to what's been suggested in another post by someone else, Vegas isn't simply Sound Forge/Acid with Video added to it. That's really not what it was intended to be in the first place. http://www.soundonsound.c...9/articles/sfvegas.htm
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dubdisciple
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Re: Which DAWs do you think will be the survivors?
2013/07/04 03:56:39
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spacey...sorry you took such offense. None was intended, but that's the nature of onscreen text. Did not mean to imply you were foolish either for thinking so. For all i know Atari could start making music based pcs again and blow everybody out the water. Stranger things have happened. I guess I could have just summed it up by saying that Sony has shown no commitment to improving the base the inherited and the small attempts they have made have all fallen flat. Based on that, I don't see them blowing anybody out the water.
Rain, was not suggesting Vegas is simply Acid/ Sound Forge with video. Vegas has grown much more than either program but the audio base has not changed much over the years once it became a video product. Vegas was designed more to compete with programs like Samplitude and Nuendo than with Cubase, Logic or Sonar. Acid started it's own special niche and then attempted to morph into full fledged DAW once other DAWs incorporated most of Acid's features. Like I said, i love Vegas but have no basis to think they could make a decent DAW. I know I could be wrong. I certainly did not think Presonus would make a decent DAW and they did.
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spacey
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Re: Which DAWs do you think will be the survivors?
2013/07/04 06:51:06
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dubdisciple...I too apologize for any negativity, not what I like to be part of. (it takes two)
We all just want a great system for whatever reasons - hobby or pro work. I think it'll happen.
Somebody will get it all sorted out...maybe. ;)
Well as long as I have the means to keep playing the game it's at the least a fun game most of the time.
Step up and place your bet.
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wizard71
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Re: Which DAWs do you think will be the survivors?
2013/07/04 07:01:29
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The ones that listen to their customers.
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SteveStrummerUK
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cparmerlee
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Re: Which DAWs do you think will be the survivors?
2013/07/04 10:00:43
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SteveStrummerUK
wizard71
The ones that listen to their customers.
A bit like 'The Homer' 
Exactly. If the customers were so smart, they would already have built the perfect DAW themselves. It is important to listen to the the customer's pain points and what their aspirations are. But never take feature suggestions literally. That is a sure way to go under. The successful supplier has a broader vision that is able to integrate those aspirations from many different customers into a solution that is seamless and intuitive. I think Cakewalk has done a really good job of the strategic stuff. It does seem there are some bug issues. But part of that is unavoidable when one makes a strategy of trying to support many OS levels, both 32- and 64-bit, many different VSTs, many different audio IFs, many different control surfaces, etc. That is a strategic decision and as long as that is their strategy, there will be a certain level of crashes and instability. It is a conscious trade-off they make for a wider customer base (wider revenue base) at the possible expense of their reputation in the market. My sense of it is that sequencers, and then the early DAWs were mostly the domain of professional musicians and mostly technically savvy enthusiasts. But now the DAW world is reaching a much wider audience, including a lot of non-musicians who find they can create stuff that sounds roughly like music without any real knowledge. While this market expansion is a revenue opportunity, it also exposes a product to much less technical users. That may be part of what will be driving the shakeout in the coming years.
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wormser
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Re: Which DAWs do you think will be the survivors?
2013/07/04 10:18:30
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I'm not so sure ProTools is going to survive long term. How much new blood are they getting? The big studios tend to stick with older versions "forever" and let's face it, the big studios are closing up faster than you can say iLok.
Avid's stock price has been on a dive and while it's leveled out it's in the crapper.
Avid seems to be ignoring the smaller studios who aren't going to be buying Avid hardware so those users are using not only ProTools but other DAW software in conjunction.
As for the others, who knows?
Cubase will probably be developed forever because of Yamaha and the fact that they have a huge install base, especially in Europe.
Reaper will survive due to the business model.
My money for the sleeper DAW is on Studio One. It's still developing but is attracting a lot of new users who are looking for something different that does what it promises well rather than promising the kitchen sink and not delivering.
Personally I can, and do use, any of these programs so it's really a moot point for me.
I suspect it's the same for most people.
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Dave Modisette
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Re: Which DAWs do you think will be the survivors?
2013/07/04 10:24:50
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wormser
My money for the sleeper DAW is on Studio One. It's still developing but is attracting a lot of new users who are looking for something different that does what it promises well rather than promising the kitchen sink and not delivering.
+1 I'm now using Studio One 2.5.2 because it seems to be happy with my legacy hardware and my Waves, Slate and UAD plugins. Theres's a lot of similarities to SONAR but it lacks the stuff in SONAR that seems to get in my way.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Which DAWs do you think will be the survivors?
2013/07/04 11:24:43
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I agree that it's no slam dunk that Pro Tools will retain dominance. They have good chances simply because they are so entrenched but we have seen many companies go from dominant to "my kid has no idea who that company is". Remember when Netscape was the browser to have? Remember when Real Player dominated most streaming audio? Someone has already mentioned Gigastudio. IBM once dominated the PC market so that I still know older people who refer to windows PC as "IBM compatible". The only current software I own that seem to have absolutely no real competition now or foreseeable future is Photoshop. They absolutely crushed the competition to the point that they can sit back and dabble in things like 3d integration and other bloat.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Which DAWs do you think will be the survivors?
2013/07/04 11:30:31
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spacey...btw i hope I am dead wrong about Sony. I have been somewhat frustrated by their lack of updates. i skipped Acid 7, although i do have occasional uses for Acid 6. Still waiting for 64-bit Sound Forge. I stopped upgrading my Vegas once I started working at facilities that relied on Avid and Premiere. I would absolutely love a version of Vegas that combines the stability and ease of use of the current model with a more full featured DAW approach.
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spacey
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Re: Which DAWs do you think will be the survivors?
2013/07/04 11:57:34
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dubdisciple
spacey...btw i hope I am dead wrong about Sony. I have been somewhat frustrated by their lack of updates. i skipped Acid 7, although i do have occasional uses for Acid 6. Still waiting for 64-bit Sound Forge. I stopped upgrading my Vegas once I started working at facilities that relied on Avid and Premiere. I would absolutely love a version of Vegas that combines the stability and ease of use of the current model with a more full featured DAW approach.
I don't think you are. I don't understand why they don't IF I'm right thinking that they have the resources to do whatever they wanted to...it does seem they do. But I waited a long time on them to make a show and zip. I don't think they care about audio/midi editing...but sure would like to see what they'd do. I updated Vegas Pro 12 from 8.1 (DVD Arch. 6) and best I recall it was out about the same time as I got X2a on-line and they've released 2 or 3 updates to date. I really don't mind and like having different programs to use and don't really care who sold them as long as they "fit" my needs. I'm just surprised that (as far as I know and my wallet allows for this hobby) that nobody has focused on a complete package. It also seems to me that progression in (consumer) video editing has blown away audio/midi ...at least in what can be done and without all the problems. I think we agree on who has done that too. My hopes are that Cake is fixing to show not only us but many others how good a recording program can be. There were many things changing when they needed to make a move from 8. and now that they've had a good test run and many of the changes are past I wouldn't be surprised if they've fine tuned it and have it polished for the next run. Naturally there will be minor adjustments after the initial run but I think they have what it takes. I have for a long time. Maybe it won't be long and we'll see.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Which DAWs do you think will be the survivors?
2013/07/04 12:55:15
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One thing I always found odd about Sony is that they never incorporated the excellent Oxford plugins into their products and never seemed willing to recode the products they acquired. Even Adobe realized that the only way they were going to expand off of their Cool Edit acquisition was to recode from the ground up so that it could be cross-platform. There is debate whether the changes are for the better but I give them credit for not staying stagnant. They also are not apologetic about incorporating features from acquired products into other products. I'm hoping more crossover between Roland and Cakrewalk. R-mix Sonar has actually grown on me.
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wormser
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Re: Which DAWs do you think will be the survivors?
2013/07/04 13:04:25
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dubdisciple
One thing I always found odd about Sony is that they never incorporated the excellent Oxford plugins into their products and never seemed willing to recode the products they acquired.
I've wondered that myself. Instead Sony included a watered down version of oZone which is nice but I think Oxford are superior overall. As for CoolEdit, personally I think that Adobe ruined it. Sure it has tons of features but it's really bloated IMHO. Cooledit's appeal was light and sweet and it did what was asked of it. The Adobe versions have screens that are so cluttered it's hard to work IMHO. Of course the newer versions have many more features which is what people seem to be asking for.
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dubdisciple
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Re: Which DAWs do you think will be the survivors?
2013/07/04 13:17:35
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wormser..there is no doubt in my mind that they chose to target newer features at people working with audio for video, while continuing to cater to the strong radio and voice over base that Cool Edit already had. They dropped the awkward attempts at midi and VSTi implentation and increased noise reduction and synch features. They also made it easier to use in conjunction with other Adobe products.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Which DAWs do you think will be the survivors?
2013/07/04 13:36:47
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wormser
As for CoolEdit, personally I think that Adobe ruined it. Sure it has tons of features but it's really bloated IMHO. Cooledit's appeal was light and sweet and it did what was asked of it. The Adobe versions have screens that are so cluttered it's hard to work IMHO.
Admittedly there is a lot of overlap, but I wouldn't call programs like CoolEdit and Audacity DAWs. To me, a DAW has at least this minimum set of features: - Seamlessly works with recorded audio, MIDI and in-board software synthesizers.
- Supports an arbitrarily large number of tracks
- Includes some open architecture for incorporating effects and synthesizers of the user's choosing, and allows the user to control the order in which effects are applied.
- Applies the effects in real time for interactive setting of parameters, without modifying the underlying WAV or MIDI file
- Allows a flexible definition of buses that goes well beyond a stereo main.
- Does routing internally, and also allows routing through hardware processors via an audio interface.
- Can record an arbitrarily large number of audio tracks simultaneously, limited only by the available audio interfaces and computer processing power.
- Includes a MIDI editor that allows you to adjust all the major properties of notes.
- Supports stretchable loops of audio or MIDI, and has a consistent UI for dealing with either
- Includes support for auto-punching and handling multiple takes.
- Supports automation of faders, pan and all the major properties of any of the effects or synthesizer settings.
That is probably not everything, but it is a pretty good starter list, I think. There can certainly be other audio editors that do a smaller set of tasks well, but I wouldn't call them DAWs. And I would humbly suggest that 7 years from now, the list of essential platform features will not be much longer. What will happen in these years, is that the implementations of each of those bullet points will be improved to make them more intuitive, reliable and effective. And beyond that, the real action will be in the effects libraries. A company can certainly have a strategy of bundling effects into the platform purchase, but this will become increasingly transparent, as more of a marketing tactic, like supplying the TruePianos with only one set of samples. That is a marketing gimmick to try to get you to purchase more add-ons, not real value in the platform.
post edited by cparmerlee - 2013/07/04 13:49:52
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wormser
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Re: Which DAWs do you think will be the survivors?
2013/07/04 13:36:52
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dubdisciple
wormser..there is no doubt in my mind that they chose to target newer features at people working with audio for video, while continuing to cater to the strong radio and voice over base that Cool Edit already had. They dropped the awkward attempts at midi and VSTi implentation and increased noise reduction and synch features. They also made it easier to use in conjunction with other Adobe products.
Yea I agree. It seems that Apple is doing something similar with their new Macs aka the trashcans. They appear to be targeting the video production crowd big time.
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6stringsat100mph
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Re: Which DAWs do you think will be the survivors?
2013/07/04 19:25:56
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I've only read the first page and am going to continue on but since several of you have mentioned Digital Performer being Mac only I will submit that this is not the case anymore. They opened up with version 8 to windows and support 32 and 64 right out the gate. I downloaded a trial of it and having such an alien workflow than what I am use to I didn't mess with it too much past the first week, then deleted it. If this has already been mentioned, please forgive my haste to make this point before fully reading the thread.
In response to the thread itself? I have no clue. I do, however wholeheartedly agree that the over abundance of DAW packages on the market today are going to start being gobbled up and left to die by whomever really wants to spend the money to ensure a future. So my comments have come full circle to what I think many have eluded to; Things can change over night in software but people will always want the core features that enable them to get the job done. In the end this loyalty we speak of and the cult like followers that support them will rather quickly abandon that same company once support and updates stop coming or attention becomes focused elsewhere. (think avid and m-audio) Loyalty is a day to day luxury that can change in the blink of an eye. My personal belief is that Steinberg has such a dominant role in the recording world with both of their game changing VST and ASIO contributions that they will not be disappearing any time soon.
Pro Tools and DP are safe bet to make it through the great DAW die off that will commence at any time in the near future.
Lets flip this just a smidgen, who will be the first ones to get a funeral? My guess is the piddly little guys such as energyXT, Orion, Mixmeister and the Native Instruments abomination "Tracktion" will be gone within a years time. Magix and the like will be soon after. My opinion of course.
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jbow
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Re: Which DAWs do you think will be the survivors?
2013/07/04 20:03:54
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SteveStrummerUK
wizard71
The ones that listen to their customers.
A bit like 'The Homer'
Steve, you really are a wise man. This post is profound, the obvious usually is because it is usually ignored. You always point it out. I thank you... Julien
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