Helpful ReplyWhich Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)?

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M_Glenn_M
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2013/06/16 15:39:13 (permalink)

Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)?

My GK3 pickup for my old Roland GR20 guitar synth just died.
I used it a lot for horns, string ensembles and keys, but I input as audio from the GR20.
 
I did get a midi patch to get midi from the GR20 to sonar but haven't tried it out.
I'm old fashioned and still like more "real" sounds rather than "synthy" stuff and the GR20 audio output sounds pretty good to me.
I still find midi confusing.
I bought an Alesis keyboard for input to soft synths but after some trials, have to admit, tho I played guitar for 50 years, I am not much on keys and so I can't get into the feel, made worse with the occasional signal delay and a crappy keyboard response, and my midi needs a lot of PRV work after.
My conundrum:
Do I replace the GK3 because of it's familiarity and ease and feel of input or abandon it and the GR20 as old outdated samples anyway and learn to work with the Keyboard, midi, soft synths and the PRV?
If the sounds are better, it's motivation.
Thanks.


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#1
scook
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/16 15:57:12 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby M_Glenn_M 2013/06/16 16:56:30
You might try out JamOrigin's MIDI Guitar software with a guitar as a MIDI controller. As far as realistic sounds, DimPro, TruePianos Amber and Studio Instruments would be the best choice of the synths bundled with SONAR.
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M_Glenn_M
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/16 16:57:51 (permalink)
Thanks of those, I've only tried SI drums and bass. They seemed fine.
I'll certainly try Dim pro and Amber piano. Thanks
I've downloaded the Beta of the JamOrigin's MIDI Guitar software and will report back.
That would be the perfect compromise.
Thanks for that.


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#3
cecelius2
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/16 16:58:33 (permalink)
scook
You might try out JamOrigin's MIDI Guitar software with a guitar as a MIDI controller. As far as realistic sounds, DimPro, TruePianos Amber and Studio Instruments would be the best choice of the synths bundled with SONAR.


Agree with Scook here.  Check our JamOrigin's Midi Guitar; you just use any electric guitar (bridge pickup). I have a Roland GI20 and two Axon AX100mk2's, but for soft synths I now use Jam Origin Midi Guitar.   You can download a free demo of v7.5 at the Jam Origin page.  It tracks soft synths very well.




#4
scook
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/16 17:15:28 (permalink)
Instructions for MIDI Guitar setup as VST http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/2749799 If you use 64bit SONAR you only need the 64bit dll but you may also want to play around with the standalone. Some use the standalone and a virtual MIDI cable to get into SONAR instead of VST setup.
#5
M_Glenn_M
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/16 20:53:21 (permalink)
Ouch and help!.
I got started on the MIDI guitar installation and lost all playback during the process.
I downloaded the program, unzipped and put the folder in the VST folder.
Booted Sonar and forced a VST scan, no problem, it showed up.
I opened a new audio track and put it into the fx bin.
Here are the instructions I'm following
********************
1. Copy VST plugin to your VST folder.(done) 
2. Launch Sonar. It should automatically recognize the new plug-in and create needed registry entries (ie you should see the plug-in as an effect in Audio FX menu). If not, use Plug-in Manager to scan new plug-ins.(done- the midi interface came up suggesting I lower the buffer..lowered to 250)  
3. Use Cakewalk Plug-in Manager, find MIDI Guitar in Effects section and open "Plug-in Properties". Enable "Configure as synth" option.(done but crashed)
 
4. Close Sonar and use Regedit to change generate Events key from "0" to "1" in HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Cakewalk Music Software\SONAR Producer\Cakewalk VST X64\Inventory\ -> MIDI Guitar (tried this but it could not find it even when changed to X32-I'm 32 bit)
 *******************This is as far as I have gotten.
Launching sonar at first it would not recognize my soundcard/controller (BR800)
I took out the MIDI guitar folder from the VST folder and it loaded and the BR800 is back in the preferences/audio Devices but now I have no sound.
***************
5. Launch Sonar. Add new audio track. Insert MIDI Guitar (now found in Soft Synths menu) to FX bin.
 
6. Go to Synth rack view. Right click grey area of the MIDI Guitar synth block and click "Enable MIDI Output".
 
That's it. Add your favourite synth to a new track and route MIDI input from MIDI Guitar, which should be visible in MIDI input menu.
 
 


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#6
scook
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/16 21:41:08 (permalink)
Which buffer did you lower?
 
Some SONAR users are not able to use MIDI Guitar as a VST, not sure if anyone has determined why? Should you continue with the VST method, the name of the plugin is now MIDIGuitar no space. Search for MIDIGuitar in your registry VST inventory.
 
Does the standalone work with your interface? If so, using it with a virtual MIDI cable such as LoopBe1 may be the way you have to use MIDI Guitar with SONAR.
#7
M_Glenn_M
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/16 22:10:34 (permalink)
Update. My sound is back.
I rebooted the computer.
Rerunning the program or the BR800 was apparently not enough.
************
Skook, Thanks for the reply.
It was the Midi playback and recording buffer.
Should it have been the Driver settings instead?
****************
Now, to avoid a repeat, I'm hoping to try it as a stand alone.
I may need a little help as I'm now a little gunshy about new installs on this one.
I downloaded LoopB1
Can you or someone walk me thru installation reeeeally slowly?
I tend to click on things I shouldn't and of course it just gets worse and worse.
Step 1. go to downloads and run setuploopbe1.exe?
2.?


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#8
scook
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/16 22:35:46 (permalink)
Before going any further you might want to see if the standalone version of MIDI Guitar works for you. It does not need SONAR, LoopBe1 or anything else, it even has built-in synths. If your interface works at a low enough latency, then getting LoopBe1 or MIDILoop (another virtual MIDI cable solution) would be the next step. It has been a long time since I played around with virtual MIDI cables. IIRC, the setup process it pretty simple.
 
  • Run the virtual cable install
  • Reboot (probably necessary for XP)
  • Launch SONAR and check the virtual cables show up and select them
  • Launch MIDI guitar, on the advanced tab select the appropriate option in the MIDI output drop down for the virtual cable
  • Add a new synth in SONAR and select a virtual cable input for the track.
#9
M_Glenn_M
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/16 23:12:41 (permalink)
Ok, so far
Ran the midiguitar32.exe  program
Settings:
Device type =  direct sound (alert says this will cause latency but only gives me asio as alternate option)
input & output device =Br800 (alert symbol says this device is not suited to realtime due to latency )
Sample 44.1
buffer= 256 is best I can get without an alert symbol.
instrument= test piano
amp effect= direct
midi outp=no ext. output
Guitar settings sensitivity 25 (I see a green bar when playing)
The note circles at the bottom light up
I hear both a guitar and some poor (Piano?)sound with a bit of latency
What now? does this mean my computer is not good enough for this?
 


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#10
scook
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/16 23:20:37 (permalink)
I do not believe the computer is the issue. I would suspect the device you are using as an audio interface. Does it have an ASIO driver? If so that would be a better choice than direct. If not, you could try ASIO4ALL. Many have reported good results with it where an ASIO driver is not available.
#11
scook
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/16 23:39:37 (permalink)
I just looked up the BR-800 on the Roland site. The v1.0.0 driver, the only one I found for XP, supports both WDM and ASIO. What recording mode are you using in SONAR? Another thing, it may be that MIDI Guitar does not like USB1.1 devices but I cannot say for sure. You would need to contact the devs about that.
#12
cecelius2
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/17 00:09:00 (permalink)
I also would look at the audio card.  My MOTU 828mk2 hybrid audio card works great with Jam Origin Midi Guitar; I can get the sample buffers down to 128 which MG reports as having a latency of 2.9ms.  I have been having fun using MG to trigger Omnisphere and Alchemy as well as Kontakt instruments in Sonar.
 
For some reason I have never gotten MG to work in its DAW mode as a vst within Sonar like Scook has, but I did find a workaround that works for me.  This is my convoluted way of using MG with Sonar X2a:

1. I install "loopmidi", and set up one instance of loopmidi, which gives one virtual midi input and one virtual midi output track. 
2. In Sonar's Preferences activate/select loopmidi for active in both midi input and midi outputs. 
3.  Next, run Jam Origin Midi Guitar in STANDALONE MODE only outside of Sonar. Do not insert this as a vst instrument within Sonar itself. 
4.  Next, within Sonar, insert a different vst instrument --whatever vst softsynth you want to play like Alchemy for example. 
5.  On this softsynth (Alchmey's for example), select "loopmidi" within its midi input track within Sonar.  Choose omni as the channel. 
6.  Arm and record the  midi from the soft synth's own midi input track (Alchemy in my case). 

This is an odd workaround for my system which never got Jam Origin Midi Guitar to output midi as a synth vst within Sonar.  HOWEVER, by running Jam Origin as a Standalone along side of (in addition to) my Sonar X2a it works fine to trigger and record softsynths within Sonar.  Hopefully most Sonar users will not need to do this, but it is a workaround in case  MG does not work in DAW mode within Sonar.
 
I am actually very pleased with the progress that has been made with MG in the last month.  It is triggering softsynths well with only a few ghost notes or false triggers.  I have used it with several guitars and it does work better on some than on others; it likes my gibson PAF more than my strat.  My experience is that with my setup and audio card, MG triggers softsynths at least as well as Roland or Axon triggers softsynths; however, both Roland's GR55 and Axon's AX100mkii probably do track their internal sounds a tad better than MG does triggering softsynths [[EDIT:  I really like both Roland and Axon midi guitar products, but not for triggering softsynths, and yes I know that Cakewalk is a Roland product--which I respect and I do buy Roland products.  Just this MG software is amazing for what it offers for the masses.  End of edit]] .  Like I said above, I now use MG as my default midi guitar input software for triggering softsynths.  The progress is amazing and there is no need for a special midi pickup; just use a normal electric guitar.
 
To the OP, I hope you get it working with Sonar.  You might want to peruse the long thread over on the KVR forum where the developer does monitor and occasionally posts: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=359095&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=840
 
post edited by cecelius2 - 2013/06/17 00:23:54




#13
Cactus Music
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/17 00:11:48 (permalink)
I have a GR 50 which I'm not sure which would be older or newer than a GR 20,,, It will interface to a modern computer fine, but with a lot of latency if you try and input midi data. You can't nudge it into time because the latency varies from real bad on low notes to OK on hi notes. The sound quality of the rack mount synth is not much better than a MS wavetable,  but because of the non midi direct connection there is very little latency while playing it through the hardware, But forget using the midi ports,, not worth the bother. 
 
Fishman just put out a new guitar PU called the Triple play which is reported as having the best performance ever. It uses a wireless to USB system so looks very appealing.
 
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TriplePlayPU
 


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#14
M_Glenn_M
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/17 10:03:55 (permalink)
Skook, I'm using ASIO in sonar, but at this point, if running MG as a stand alone, it is not accessing sonar so I'm still confused.
I'll need to take it one step at a time with no assumptions made that I might know about midi.
1. Do I run MG first?
2. What setups does it need?
3. Is it important not to have latency at this point?
4. Do I download and install this Loopmidi or other into sonar as a vst?
Of course I would need the BR800 as an interface as it's the only place to plug in a guitar.
Thanks for all the help.
 
Cecilious, my BR800 has been very good about latency so far so abandoning it for another interface seems hasty for me at this point, but nice to know yours works fine.
 
Cactus, the GR20  is older than the GR55 .
I agree the latency of the GR20 was too much for midi too, so I used it for audio instead. 


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#15
scook
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/17 10:27:38 (permalink)
The first thing is to get the standalone version of MIDI Guitar running well because it sounds like the VST mode may not be viable.  Low latency in the standalone mode is critical.
 
Virtual cable software is not plug-in it is driver software that runs in the background of the PC. To MIDI Guitar and SONAR, the virtual cable will appear as a MIDI interface. When you are ready to attempt connecting MIDI Guitar to SONAR, you will need to have both applications running (which starts first does not matter). Configure MIDI Guitar's MIDI Output to the virtual MIDI cable. Configure SONAR MIDI Preferences to use the virtual cable as MIDI input. Then create a synth track in SONAR like you usually would and set the track input to the virtual cable.
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M_Glenn_M
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/17 15:03:40 (permalink)
I am using AISO for device and the BR800 for device type
I was able to install the VST list and play them (still outside Sonar) but
I ran out of options for latency.
It's close, maybe even usable, but there is an alert that says there will be latency but the buffer dropdown has no other options than the 432 samples it has in the window.
I do remember it had more previously.
The sample rate also has only the one 44.1Khz
Does this mean my BR800 does not support the lower samples?


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#17
scook
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/17 15:13:19 (permalink)
According to this http://www.bossus.com/gear/productdetails.php?ProductId=1068 the sample rate is fixed at 44.1
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M_Glenn_M
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/17 15:48:56 (permalink)
Ok, thanks for that spec sheet link.
It doesn't mention buffers which is also limited to the one 432 rate (but too high).
Are the buffers set by the BR800 or the computer?


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#19
scook
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/17 16:08:46 (permalink)
There may be one setting unless there is software that comes with the BR-800 to adjust it.
#20
M_Glenn_M
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/17 16:32:08 (permalink)
Aha! thank you.
It's in the computer control panel  under BR800 settings
I got it running fine now.
Thanks again.
Taking a break then trying it out in Sonar
So stoked.
thanks again for your amazing patience.


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#21
garrigus
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/17 18:47:09 (permalink)
If you want to stick with what's included in SONAR, then Dimension Pro has the best acoustic type sounds because it's a sample player.
 
Scott

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#22
M_Glenn_M
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/17 18:53:07 (permalink)
Thanks Scott, Looking fwd to it.
I haven't found any with good horns or harmonicas yet but still looking.


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#23
cecelius2
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/17 18:59:03 (permalink)
M_Glenn_M
Aha! thank you.
It's in the computer control panel  under BR800 settings
I got it running fine now.
Thanks again.
Taking a break then trying it out in Sonar
So stoked.
thanks again for your amazing patience.


Great.  Let us know what buffer settings you get with that card.  Like I said above, mine goes down to 128 with MG and that gives a latency of only 2.9ms.  BTW, 128 is the lowest setting that MG allows.  Some audio cards go lower (like 64) but MG only recognizes 128 buffer samples as its lowest possible setting.  Having said that, 128 buffer samples is very nice and with 2.9ms it is usable for triggering softsynths.
 
Like Scott said in the previous post, if you are going to use softsynths that come with Sonar then Dimension Pro will be a good choice for finding some horns.  I think it includes a lite version of the Garritan Pocket Orchestra that has a legato french horn patch.
 
Have fun!




#24
M_Glenn_M
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/17 20:39:07 (permalink)
The BR 800 goes down to 96 or 144 with ASIO direct.
192 seems very stable with this program.
 
Does anyone else have the guitar sound blended in with the VST sounds?


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#25
scook
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/17 20:49:43 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby HappyDwarf 2013/06/18 16:28:46
The guitar will blend with the synth if the AMP/EFFECT is set to DIRECT in the OUTPUT section of the ESSENTIALS page or AMP/EFFECT in the AMP/EFFECT OUTPUT section of the ADVANCED page. Set to NONE to suppress guitar output.
#26
scook
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/17 20:52:57 (permalink)
There is some documentation for the software here http://www.jamorigin.com/...ws-Mac/help/index.html same as the help button
#27
M_Glenn_M
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/17 22:08:11 (permalink)
This link was dead but I have looked at the help file.
And thanks again Skook


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#28
scook
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/17 22:13:15 (permalink)
Not sure what happened to the link
http://www.jamorigin.com/...ws-Mac/help/index.html
it is the same as the help button
#29
M_Glenn_M
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Re: Which Sonar soft synth has the best samples (specif.keys and Horns)? 2013/06/17 22:33:47 (permalink)
Did anyone figure out the pitch bend? 
I'm used to the Roland GR20 which does a great job.
Obviously pianos and others are not meant to bend but strings and others surely should.


Producer Exp x1d 
Win XP, intel Core2 Duo CPU E4600 @ 2.4 GHz, 2 GHz RAM  
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BR800 controller , DR880 drum machine. GR20 guitar synth, Alesis QX25 
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2 Yamaki acoustics, Korean Strat, 60's Jazzmaster, 60's BF Deluxe Reverb,   

 



#30
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