John T
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/24 11:46:47
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The 64 bit aspect of all this again just applies to steps 2 and 3 above. Sonar a while acquired an option to set the internal mixing system to "double precision 64 bit". I have that switched on, but I couldn't honestly claim I can reliably tell a difference. But all else remains the same as above.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/24 14:53:18
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Sonar 5 does have the 64-bit precision mix engine. I have that turned on. But the maximum file bit depth it allows to set/export at is 32 bit. That's just yet another aspect of what is confusing me.
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John T
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/24 14:57:45
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Ah, right. Yeah, there's a lot of shared terminology among different contexts.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/24 15:20:53
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SonicExplorer
Sonar 5 does have the 64-bit precision mix engine. I have that turned on. But the maximum file bit depth it allows to set/export at is 32 bit. That's just yet another aspect of what is confusing me.
The 64 bit part is simply referring the the precision of the maths involved when performing any action on an audio file - it has NOTHING to do with the bit depth of files which as you have found, you can export as 32 bit. You'll struggle to find a player that can actually play a 32 bit file, there are several that can handle 24 bit files but CD of course is limited to 16 bit
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John T
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/24 15:52:12
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There's a good potential spin off topic from this, about what does and doesn't make significant and decisive differences in the real-world deployment of music. Should probably be its own thread, mind you.
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mettelus
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/24 16:25:05
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Hehe, good thing you mentioned that, since as I was reading this during lunch "frequency masking" (where one loses audio tracking capability even if the smallest detail were present in the masked frequency) and the fact that much deployed music is played as an mp3 through ear buds came to mind (not to mention you cannot control the EQ settings of the listener's mixer). So many variables to the "system" that arguing them one-by-one is moot.
Back to the OP's concern/question... So much of a song falls into "musical content" versus "technical content," so don't get too wrapped around the axle on things "because you can." John's 5 step summary above is very to-the-point about each phase.
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azslow3
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/24 17:00:35
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Bristol_Jonesey
SonicExplorer
Sonar 5 does have the 64-bit precision mix engine. I have that turned on. But the maximum file bit depth it allows to set/export at is 32 bit. That's just yet another aspect of what is confusing me.
The 64 bit part is simply referring the the precision of the maths involved when performing any action on an audio file - it has NOTHING to do with the bit depth of files which as you have found, you can export as 32 bit.
"Nothing to do" is a bit confusing in this context. Sure these bits are related. When the engine is working in 64bit mode, it produce 64bit floating point numbers. These can be saved "as is" into 64bit format file or can be "truncated" to 32 bits (or converted into 16 or 24 bit integers). So, nothing is wrong with writing 64bit files. The whole discussion here is about usefulness to do this. And in that aspect everyone except one (self claimed) "expert" agree that exporting into 64bit files make no sense. To prevent the question why everyone recommend to mix with 64bit engine but say more then a half of it is a "garbage". During mixing you normally use some plug-ins. F.e. in VST2 standard there are 2 methods plug-ins can implement, one accept "float" (32bit) data and another accept "double" (64bit) data. And if some developer has decided to use "floats" for intermediate calculation, the quality of the result can degrade. Let say we have 3 significant (decimal) digits precision with input "123". We use an algorithm which adds 5000 and then deducts 5010 (5000=5*10^3, 1 digit precision; 5010=501*10, 3 digits precision; so all 3 used numbers have at most 3 digits precision) : 1) if we have unlimited (or at least 4) digits DURING the calculating, the result will be: 123+5000 = 5123, 5123 - 5010 = 113. 2) if we have only 3 significant digits DURING the calculation, the result will be: 123+5000 = 5120 (the last digit is truncated!), 5120 - 5010 = 110. Note that in (1) INPUT and the OUTPUT have 3 digits precision. But in (2) we have LOST the precision, we get 2 instead of 3. So in this case we do not need more then 3 for "files", but we need at least 4 for "processing" Sorry for a bit "scientific" and for sure abstract example. But unlike in medicine, military and atom reactor calculations, I do not think that many "creative" developers of "vintage analog gears emulations" calculate used algorithms precision. I guess most of them simply do not know how to do this and many of them even not aware the problem exists. Also in the SoftSynth world, where "creative" user can turn any from 2000 parameters to extreme values during preset creation, it is impossible to keep calculation under control.
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glennstanton
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/24 18:30:44
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M@
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/29 05:47:36
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BenMMusTech
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/30 07:27:50
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Since this topic hasn't 'died, I've found some resources on the topic of 64bit fp audio files. Whilst these aren't science or digital audio theory papers, the writer seems to be echoing everything I've stated. The first article, https://theproaudiofiles.com/6-db-headroom-mastering-myth-explained/ the writer suggests that there are benefits to exporting to a 64bitfp pre-master even if that pre-master is going to a 'pro' mastering house and will be eventually truncated ;) (Sorry to the poster above, yes I should use correct terminology) to 24bit and 16bit. The writer of the article also backs up my belief that 64bit fp audio files are container files and even if you record at 16 or 24 bit, because once you apply processing, the file becomes a defacto 64bit fp audio file :). So if you don't want truncation to occur it's important to keep the bit depth of your audio files as high as possible for as long as possible. This article, www.justmastering.com/article-mixingformp3.php suggests that you should use a lossy format to upload to soundcloud. Whilst it doesn't suggest 64bitfp audio files - since 24bit or 16bit audio files are lossy files when converting from 64bitfp audio files - it follows that 64bitfp would be the best format used for soundcloud and possibly other streaming services. This article is interesting www.justmastering.com/article-masteredforitunes.php because it says even if you hand in a 24bit audio file, during transcoding the file gets shunted back up to a 32bitfp audio file, so take from that what you want. If you read on, the article even suggests the higher the bit depth, including floating point audio, that you submit your master the better. I had another article extolling the virtues of high bitrate masters for video, but I can't find that at the moment. And even though the writers of the above article haven't used scientific data, and therefore I won't say that I'm right full stop...I believe these articles do seem to back up my belief in 64bitfp audio files for not only processing but also for masters as well - no matter what the final format of said 64bitfp masters will be. There you go John T Peace
post edited by BenMMusTech - 2018/05/30 07:59:17
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John T
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/30 12:24:54
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Hmm. The forum keeps eating my reply.
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John T
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/30 12:29:48
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Let's try again: BenMMusTech
Since this topic hasn't 'died
It totally had. Apart from that deleted post there, nobody had posted in it for a week BenMMusTech
Whilst these aren't science or digital audio theory papers, the writer seems to be echoing everything I've stated.
You said it man. Person on internet with no evidence agrees with other person on the internet with no evidence. This is a long way to climb down from "I am an expert" and "I can prove this", isn't it? But in any case, he isn't echoing what you've said. BenMMusTech
The first article, https://theproaudiofiles....tering-myth-explained/ the writer suggests that there are benefits to exporting to a 64bitfp pre-master even if that pre-master is going to a 'pro' mastering house and will be eventually truncated ;) (
Except he doesn't suggest that at all. Seriously, everyone go and have a look. It suggests exporting a pre-master at 32 bit in the specific case that you've mixed incompetently and have master bus clipping. BenMMusTech
This article, www.justmastering.com/article-mixingformp3.php suggests that you should use a lossy format to upload to soundcloud. Whilst it doesn't suggest 64bitfp audio files
No, it doesn't, does it? Like the last link didn't either. Is this that famed academia-honed argumentative skill? Or is it a big ol bottle of weak sauce? Let's find out: BenMMusTech
since 24bit or 16bit audio files are lossy files when converting from 64bitfp audio files
No. That's not what "lossy" means in this context. "Lossy" here refers to a data compression scheme where the results of uncompressing the data you've compressed are not reliably the same as the data that first went in (say, mp3) as opposed to a compression scheme where what you unpack later is the same as what you put in (eg: FLAC). You're confusing two different categories here. BenMMusTech
This article is interesting www.justmastering.com/article-masteredforitunes.php because it says even if you hand in a 24bit audio file, during transcoding the file gets shunted back up to a 32bitfp audio file, so take from that what you want.
I think taking from things what you want is what's got you in this ill-informed position, so I'll decline that advice thanks. There's one thing you can't take from it, though, which is anything at all about 64 bit, which the article mentions solely with regard to internal processing. So, hey, not just a super weak case you've made there, but you lying about what's in the links you've posted (or you don't understand what's in them). For all the I'M AN ACADEMIC bluster, rarely have I encountered someone so aggressively opposed to learning anything or having their mind changed by the facts of a matter. Look, I'll say it again. I absolutely don't care if you individually believe the things you say. But you shouldn't waste the time of forum members by pretending to be more informed than you are. This forum is a great resource for sharing knowledge. It is also, unfortunately, a viral vector for berks to spread ignorance.
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azslow3
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/30 16:56:12
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BenMMusTech
The writer of the article also backs up my belief that 64bit fp audio files are container files and even if you record at 16 or 24 bit, because once you apply processing, the file becomes a defacto 64bit fp audio file :). So if you don't want truncation to occur it's important to keep the bit depth of your audio files as high as possible for as long as possible.
You can get supported by many people... but you will not pass the first year of any serious technical education with such a belief 
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rabeach
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/30 20:31:18
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There is nothing wrong with using empirical evidence to develop a strategy besides I only listened on PC speakers but Ben's mixes sounded good.
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John T
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/30 21:35:17
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We're not talking about his mixes though.
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BenMMusTech
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/31 00:47:16
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John T
We're not talking about his mixes though.
Actually we are, because I maintain that without my 64bitfp audio file theory...I could not have achieved those masters and mixes. And you should read those articles properly, because he says if you have the ability to export at higher bit depths, then you should export at the highest quality possible. It's in the mastering for ITunes article. And 24bit is a lossless format if you're bit crushing from 64bit. If all processing is done at 64bit and stored In a 64bit fp file, but then bit crushed to a 24bit file - you lose resolution and dither is applied to make up for loss of definition in the very last few bits. As for your accusation, that I'm not very open-minded to contrary opinions to my own, well I am - but I'm also prone to stand up and say this is what I believe and here is the evidence. I've produced mixes and masters that you can't pull apart and say...they're crap. And I maintain its because of 64bitfp audio and master files. I've produced a mastering engineer who uses the same theories and he's Itunes certified. I've also given useful links that helps clear up the confusion regarding 64bit fp audio and why you should use said audio format. Prey tell Little John, what have you contributed to this discussion, apart from negative invective and the lack of understanding in regards to modern digital audio theory? I've got scientific papers which I'm going through as we speak...I've had enough of people like yourself John and this anti-intellgence stance. Sure I piss people off, because I'm happy within myself and express this... so by all means write nasty comments about my works on Youtube or here, it doesn't work, but enough. I will continue to work on my theory, and submit that theory for peer review using the AES journal:). In fact Little John - you've given me the impetus to do so :) Ben
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John T
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/31 01:20:20
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BenMMusTech
you should read those articles properly
Well, I have to admire your sense of irony, if that's what it is. BenMMusTech
I've had enough of people like yourself John and this anti-intellgence stance.
It's not intelligence that I've been arguing a case against. I dunno, I suppose I've been wasting my own time here. I shall stop doing that.
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John T
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/31 01:26:05
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BenMMusTech
so by all means write nasty comments about my works on Youtube or here
One last thing. I can't let this stand. I have said nothing about your work at all, quite deliberately. Your work's not what's in question. Though you don't surprise me by this attempt at a smear, trying to paint me as someone who's just knocking your efforts. I haven't done that, and won't be doing that.
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.
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/31 01:48:06
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John T
I dunno, I suppose I've been wasting my own time here. I shall stop doing that.
That might be the best road to take, you are dealing with someone who is self appointed 'Top of Field' in many and any areas of music and music production, as you surely have already found out. Here is a couple of other snippets to help see what you are up against. BenMMusTech
Jamesg1213
I think very many of them could, and can; Emerson, Wakeman, the Shulman brothers, Howe, Banks, Hackett, Fripp to name but a few.
Anyway, I listened to the piece Ben. Have no idea what to say about it really, but hey, I listened!
How about 'wow music and art dressed up as philosophy? - wow that's new' lol The piece is about trying to achieve higher levels of consciousness and looking beyond our limitations ;)
Or the technical proficiency to create such a marvelous work is beyond my comprehension :).
Or the sonic nuances of the sounds and the mix blew me away.
Hows that James for a few suggestions? lol.
Wakeman and Emerson probably knew how to read and write music...I'm not sure about Fripp - he did write Song of The Gulls off Islands...my point still stands, none would be able to sit down and write a classical sonata. And mock up every instrument - or almost every instrument in a virtual orchestral score editor and make things sound as real as I have got them IMO.
Ben
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3719946 and BenMMusTech
I am a whole band and a whole orchestra...after 32 years of being in music, I don't have many peers anymore, and most people would just get in my way
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3755473
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John T
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/31 02:20:01
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Heh.
Yes, circular reasoning abounds here. I know doing X makes a person awesome, because I'm awesome and I did X. Well, ok. If five star self-reviews are what someone's looking for, then they can always guarantee that. I suppose it provides satisfaction of a sort.
Myself, I'm far too handsome to carry on bothering with this.
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azslow3
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/31 06:34:09
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John T
BenMMusTech
so by all means write nasty comments about my works on Youtube or here
One last thing. I can't let this stand. I have said nothing about your work at all, quite deliberately. Your work's not what's in question. Though you don't surprise me by this attempt at a smear, trying to paint me as someone who's just knocking your efforts. I haven't done that, and won't be doing that.
I suggest you to listen his music... May be you can understand his posts better then. I do 
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BenMMusTech
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/31 08:16:59
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https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1022814/FULLTEXT02&ved=2ahUKEwiru-2Ytq_bAhUNQLwKHQeMBvE4ChAWMAZ6BAgDEAE&usg=AOvVaw3npQAkr6UpAmWrXPAYfZsH Ok hopefully the above link works, please let me know if it doesn't :). Now I've only read through the paper once and only to look for key ideas...but what the paper suggests is if you record at 16 bit or 24 bit ,at 32bit fp processing more rounding errors are introduced as opposed to 64bit fp. These errors whether they're audible is key in the debate. Now, for me like when I record acoustic instruments at 96khz versus 44 and 48 there is a certain air that is audible when recording and processing at 64biffp. It's the clarity of the audio which only 64bitfp can achieve. I believe I've produced enough evidence for those enlightened enough to realize I'm not a raving egotist, just confident in my abilities, that the benefits of 64bit fp audio throughout the signal chain can offer tangible benefits to those like myself who mix ITB. Unlike John, I can also say there are also times when 24bit will be fine. Such as recording a troubadour and all processing is done via analouge outboard gear or you're feeding a signal in and out of the box. Otherwise you will get the maximum benefit of your DAW only if you switch to 64bitfp. One of the most important things I realized when I started out in research, was asking the right question. Yes, it even takes me time to hit upon the right question. The other part of this debate was the benefits of 64bitfp master audio files. I think that it's pretty much unequivocal that if you mix at 64bitfp and are sending it to a mastering house...the output file should therefore be 64bitfp. If you're sending a fully mastered master to Ifools, it should be again 64bitfp. Now the issue was MP3 and the various distribution methods and file formats. The correct question to ask, to answer whether 64bit fp masters are useful in regards to mp3 and indeed mp4 and probaly AAC3 or Crapple is...what is the bit depth of an MP3 file and the answer is there isn't one. https://soundbridge.io/audio-formats-file-types/ now this article suggests if you're going to create an MP3 it should be created from a 32bitfp master, it only follows that a 64bitfp master would offer even better high fidelity audio. And hence why I can call my soundcloud and my A/V works HD audio, because you're listening in fact to a 64bitfp audio master. There is even an argument to be had, that the soundcloud and A/V work audio is better quality than even my 24bit master wave files I use. Please let me know if either of the links don't work. Check and Mate John...and I don't believe you about your alter-ego...she just popped up after your last attempt at a rebuttal. And the quality of my qualifications denotes I'm an expert...it may not be a PhD but an M.phil is still the second highest qualification in academia and therefore can be trusted for expertise and quality. Ben
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BenMMusTech
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/31 08:23:22
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azslow3
John T
BenMMusTech
so by all means write nasty comments about my works on Youtube or here
One last thing. I can't let this stand. I have said nothing about your work at all, quite deliberately. Your work's not what's in question. Though you don't surprise me by this attempt at a smear, trying to paint me as someone who's just knocking your efforts. I haven't done that, and won't be doing that.
I suggest you to listen his music... May be you can understand his posts better then. I do
And thanks. I do the work I do for no praise, but it is always nice when someone recognizes the work you do. It took 18 years of work to reach this point. I can probably help most learn my technique now in a few months. Ben
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/31 09:40:36
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I'm not as educated about elements of this discussion as some of the more seasoned members on the forum, but what I'm understanding at a very basic level is this: There is one perspective saying to keep things in the highest (64 bit) resolution possible until final destination. In theory I can see why that seems to makes sense. With that theory even saving to 32 bit fp may be better than dropping to 24 or 16 due to the way computers & underlying code handle various elements of numerical storage and precision calculations. If the workflow from recording to mix to master to final destination can be kept to a single "truncation" then I can see why staying in a consistent highest resolution would seem to make sense. Again, in theory. Whether or not this theory is true, and if so whether it can be audibly discerned is another story... Anyway, a few quick comments... 1) Seems to me this debate makes a case for using a mastering bus inside a project. This eliminates any worry about intermediary bit/export format depths. Problem solved. 2) Ben seems convinced on his points, and meanwhile people seem to generally agree his mixes sound good. So one thought might be for Ben to create a brief clip using a 64 bit workflow mix as well as one that does not, and then people can listen for themselves to see if they can distinguish any difference. Sonic
post edited by SonicExplorer - 2018/06/01 03:57:23
Windows XP 32 bit, Sonar 5 PE, RME Fireface 400
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mettelus
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/31 14:18:28
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☄ Helpfulby abacab 2018/05/31 14:57:41
Yesterday while reading this thread's updates, advice came to mind that a boss had given me 20+ years ago now... "Don't get into a wrestling match with a pig. You are both going to get dirty, but the pig will enjoy it."
ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC), i7-8700k, 16GB RAM, GTX-1070Ti, Win 10 Pro, Saffire PRO 24 DSP, A-300 PRO, plus numerous gadgets and gizmos that make or manipulate sound in some way.
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abacab
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/31 15:01:47
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mettelus
Yesterday while reading this thread's updates, advice came to mind that a boss had given me 20+ years ago now... "Don't get into a wrestling match with a pig. You are both going to get dirty, but the pig will enjoy it."
I recall hearing a similar expression at work many years ago: "Arguing with an engineer is a lot like wrestling in the mud with a pig. After a few hours, you realize that he likes it." 
DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ...
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rabeach
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/05/31 19:47:13
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Chregg
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/06/03 07:38:47
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John T
Absolutely LOL at being lectured on high quality audio by someone who's putting forward soundcloud streams as evidence of their discernment.
when you freeze tracks at a lower bit-depth is all the analouge emulation effects get grainy at 32bitfp and at 24bit depth those sonics disappear into the noise floor.
This is such utter babble. Where do you get this nonsense from?
The noise floor is the volume of the background noise, which, you know, hopefully is low to begin with. If what you say above has any meaning, then signals above the noise floor, ie: what you're hearing 99% of the time, would have none of these analogue emulation effects. It's an inevitable corollary of saying the noise floor can make them disappear.
So you're effectively saying that there's some precious analogue emulation effect that kicks in when a signal is quiet enough to be about to sink into silence, that nonetheless magically imparts character to the rest of this mix.
I really hope nobody else is having their time wasted by believing any of this guff.
ha ha ha brilliant John, doesn't have a clue whats hes talking about
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Chregg
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/06/03 07:46:24
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lol a 64bit fp file a container file, how did you come to that conclusion, i dont think you truely understand what you're talking about, you're picking up wee pieces of info online without any real understanding of what your reading up on, then your trying to put it together in your mind, using these online degree courses as some kind of foundation to what you're saying is right, absolutely clueless, "yeah man when you freeze at a lower bit depth, like 32 bit fp , all the harmonic distortion, gets truncated down to the lsb" haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
post edited by Chregg - 2018/06/03 10:52:28
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Chregg
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Re: Which bit depth conversion methodology going from mix to master to CD ?
2018/06/03 07:52:22
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and you want to "try" and write a paper on this lol, you've seriously got yer work cut out there, my fellow academic.
you're the only person i can think of that gets punted off a curriculum for trying to tell the lecturers and head of faculty what they should and shouldn't be teaching, like you know better lol
John T this has brightened my sunday morning up
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