Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/09 10:33:37
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Posted this before as response / solution to a common misconception since X3 (i.e. if you disable this option you may see your CPU meters leveling off a lot lower): I have also observed higher readings on Sonar CPU meters, interestingly also when play back is stopped. I wonder if that has something to do with recent changes to FX tail handling and/or VST3. Always Stream Audio Through FX. If any tracks or buses contain active plug-in effects, the audio engine will be activated and stream silence through the effects, even if the tracks have no audio data or Input Echo enabled. You will typically only disable this option if you want to conserve a bit of CPU processing if you play a project that contains lots of empty audio tracks with effects. There are several benefits to having this option enabled:- Any effect with a “tail” (reverb, delay, etc.) will finish playing when playback is stopped.- Effects will respond to automation envelopes, even on empty audio tracks.- Many plug-ins do not update their UI properly until they receive audio input.
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Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/09 10:47:19
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Pict Thanks for the advice Mettelus I tried every setting but still no go maximum 6 Nebula instances as before.The audio interface is a Cakewalk Sonar V-Studio 100 I don't think there could be a more compatible system with Sonar than their own interface with their own ASIO driver. I think I'm out of luck trying to use Sonar with Nebula.Thanks again for the help.
That is actually a Roland interface and driver. While our name is on it, the only thing the Boston office really did was code the control surface plug-in. Edit: Just to clarify. There's no secrete sauce with the Cakewalk or Roland interfaces in regards to how they work in SONAR beyond control surface functionality.
post edited by Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk] - 2014/01/09 11:16:51
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Pict
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/09 11:46:25
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FreeFlyBertl thanks I just tried your suggestion but it made no difference also I tried using Reaper with an ASIO buffer setting at 128 samples and it still played back smoothly but Sonar playback was total distortion like elephants walking around in a swimming pool filled with packets of crisps(potato chips)miked through a marshall amplifier at full volume.To get Sonar to playback smoothly the buffer settings had to be set at 1024 samples.This is only with Nebula being used and I haven't had this problem with any other plugins in Sonar.
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scook
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/09 11:57:36
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Is this Nebula 3 or Nebula 3 Pro?
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Pict
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/09 12:00:26
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scook
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/09 12:16:12
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The thread is getting pretty long. I saw the question asked but not answered on page one regarding the setting of the ThreadSchedulingModel in AUD.ini. The default value is 1. Setting it to 2 may be a better setting for a quad core processor.
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Pict
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/09 13:52:40
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brian brock
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/09 23:54:28
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Interested in these recent Reaper/Sonar comparisons, I tested the latest Reaper against Sonar X3d. I used Sonar's TL-64 Tube Leveler plugin to test, since it strikes me as a pretty plain vanilla processor without a lot of weird tricks going on. I put 64 instances in Reaper and in Sonar - 8 tracks of audio each with 8 instances. I turned Reaper's "Anticipative FX processing" off, and Sonar's "Always stream Audio through FX" off (not that that should make any difference), with ThreadSchedulingModel in Sonar set to both 1 and 2. The computer is a i7 3770 with an RME interface at 1024 samples. I watched the Windows Task Manager as I played back in each program. In Reaper the CPU usage hovered between 10 and 12 percent, while in Sonar it hovered between 10 and 16 percent, with a spike to 20 percent immediately on playback start. It comes as no surprise to me that Sonar's CPU usage would be higher when performing the same task, because Sonar in general feels like a program with more overhead. For one small example,the Reaper fx window hearkens back to Windows 98, while Sonar uses more pretty graphics. Sonar is like a Subaru station wagon. Reaper is a BMW diesel retrofitted to use biofuels. To worry that a Subaru gets worse gas mileage than the biofuel-BMW is to ignore that the driving experience of the two cars is entirely different.
post edited by brian brock - 2014/01/10 00:53:38
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Vastman
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/10 01:51:23
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I'd say... Tesla vs. a Leaf... and the Tesla requires more batteries (cpu) to take ya way farther... my meters don't budge much any more... just avoid buying all the garbage corporate america shoves down our throats... Peets coffee is the hardest...tryin' to do what we're doin'...with a tinker toy is crazy... and as soon as DIVA came out, my once mighty i7 950 rapidly became a tinker toy... but...i digress... as my point is... my meters don't budge much any more... and that's really nice! No whining, no forum time, no bad mouthin'... just creatin' with way fewer headaches... just look at everything you bought last year... all the junk/junkfood/$50 movies... and just think how easy and healthier you'd feel if you could say, "my meters don't budge much any more..."
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/10 03:08:13
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Isn't BMW generally considered the more luxurious driving experience over Subaru (or most Japanese cars)? :)
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Splat
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/10 03:10:31
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Pam Anderson is driving Subaru though...
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mudgel
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/10 03:25:38
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I drive a Subaru too. But I haven't used the Nebula plugin for years simply because it has always been a resource hog.
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Pict
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/10 10:08:09
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No question that Sonar is prettier than Reaper but I have always believed that form follows function.Nebula ,from what I can gather from users who have been using it longer than I have it has improved dramatically in usabilty over earlier versions but it's the sound that matters and it sounds superb to me so I can tolerate its greed for resources 16 instances makes it very usable for me compared to 6 that is all I prefer Sonars GUI much more than Reapers.In truth though I far prefer Logic to either Sonar or Reaper or Cubase both in looks and functionality but like I said earlier I can't afford a new Mac at their exorbitant prices so a Windows machine is the only option and Cakewalk is the obvious choice for that OS.Sonar seems to have adopted many of the features of Logic(folders,screensets,inspector)Reaper looks like an ancient version of Cubase to me but looks are less important to me than usability.Like Sanderxpander said earlier some people seem to confuse constructive criticism with Sonar bashing ladies(or should that be laddies?) protesting too much comes to mind  I'd rather have an E type Jag but a Vincent black lightning will do.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/10 10:28:09
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Keith Albright [Cakewalk]
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/10 11:00:38
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I doubt all things are equal for a difference like that. Perhaps SONAR is doing double precision processing and Reaper isn't? Or, perhaps the audio buffer setting is 64 samples in SONAR but 256 in Reaper? I never saw what the respective buffer settings were. They'd have to be identical to even begin to try to draw a comparison.
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Pict
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/10 11:00:57
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Sanderxpander are you in the US?It costs more like $3000 in Europe for a new four core Apple and even on ebay $2000 for a used one which when compared to the price an equivalent horsepower Win machine that seems ridiculous to me.Anyway I can't afford anything like that at the moment so I'll just have to keep soldiering on with my old planned obsolescence junk
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/10 11:31:47
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No I'm in the Netherlands. Mobo 100e CPU i7 3770 300e (actually more like 270) Memory 150e SSD 250GB for boot and programs 150e Large HDD for recording 100e PSU 100e Case 150e
This puts it at 1050 but you could get a cheaper case or smaller boot SSD (I have 120Gb). Anyway, you can get quite a capable system around this price point. For just a couple hundred more you could get a killer system. Not sure where you're getting 2k or 3k figures.
Btw I'm specifically saying hackintosh, not Apple.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/10 11:39:59
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Keith Albright [Cakewalk] I doubt all things are equal for a difference like that. Perhaps SONAR is doing double precision processing and Reaper isn't? Or, perhaps the audio buffer setting is 64 samples in SONAR but 256 in Reaper? I never saw what the respective buffer settings were. They'd have to be identical to even begin to try to draw a comparison.
Keith, he mentioned using identical buffers. It's possible there's just something going on between Sonar and Nebula specifically. Reaper is known for being lighweight but as you say, this is quite a large difference. I haven't noticed differences this large with other plugs, and I'm sure you guys haven't either or you'd have been on it long ago.
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Splat
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/10 11:52:21
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Maybe try NATIVE INSTRUMENTS MASSIVE using preset "1991" running simple midi bassline instead :).
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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codamedia
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/10 14:34:42
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Pict Nebula 3 pro server
Does the software come with any support? Have you contacted Acustica Audio to see if they can make any suggestions? Have they tested their product with Sonar X3 (or even an older version of Sonar)? Are other people reporting this problem with them - do they even know a problem exists? Does Nebula have settings to tweak? If so, don't assume the same settings work between all DAWs. Surely they want their software to work efficiently in any DAW or they risk losing customers. If every VST was performing badly in Sonar then it might be fair to point a finger at Cakewalk. But this appears to be more of an isolated problem - maybe Nebula needs a tweak, not Sonar. (Didn't Waves just release an update late last year related to Sonar compatibility?) Just sayin ...
post edited by codamedia - 2014/01/10 14:50:33
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stevec
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/10 18:08:49
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FWIW, I tried a simple test where I loaded 10 instances of Nebula 3 Free (all I have) onto a single audio track with a two bar audio loop stretched out to eight bars. I chose a different preset in all ten instances, then looped those eight bars and started playback with a 5ms buffer (Focusrite 18i6). The CPU meter for the first core was high, not surprising for an older Q9300 w/ 8GB RAM, but it played back OK. When I kicked off my screen capture software SONAR's CPU usage increased just enough to go into the red here and there - not sure why - and while playback was a little glitchy there were no dropouts. I can upload a ZIP file with the CWP, video of playback and the bounced audio for comparison (without the screen capture software going) if anyone's interested.
SteveC https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163 SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors; Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO); Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
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Pict
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/10 18:57:07
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Steve could you tell me which presets you used in Nebula?
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mettelus
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/10 19:34:43
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[Non-contribution really... just observation] I went on a general search for info on this plug-in, but could not find anything specific to its pathing at all. What I did find was posts on just about every DAW forum and even their own about issues with it. It comes across as being "intended" for mastering, but seems that each instance comes online "loaded to the gills." Regardless of "performance," the laundry list of issues I saw came across as "poorly scripted." I actually went back through this post, and realized we are talking X3 Producer here, and the question arose "With all of the plug-ins that come with X3 Pro (which are very capable), why this fixation on a 'mastering' plug?" I guess it just comes across as odd to me... if someone's focus is to make music, they will do so "by hook or by crook." So that continued into "Does one want to make music, or cling dearly to a plug-in that has issues with all DAWs?" It really goes back to my initial post, I guess... if a plug-in is hampering music, it will get kicked to the curb quicker than last week's news.... music drives plug-in choice, not vice-versa. We all make bad investment choices. It seems this plug-in is intended (and scripted) for a mastering bus, so those who are using it for other purposes are running powerful machines, or just lucky.
post edited by mettelus - 2014/01/10 19:46:09
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Pict
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/10 21:44:45
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It is not a mastering plugin.I suggest taking a look at january 2012 soundonsound article for a brief overview of the plugin and its possibilities or even better give it a try yourself there's a free version available.If you can make your recordings sound better why wouldn't you?Making music isn't the problem this is about getting your recordings to sound how you like them this plugin does that for me and many others it just doesn't perform well for me,I reiterate for me, in Sonar but it does in a competitors product.I've spent much more money and time on Sonar and its addons than I have on its competitors product which runs this plugin well thereby allowing me to mix my previously recorded tracks unhampered . In my opinion it's not unreasonable to try and find it out why.It makes me wonder if maybe I'm spending money unwisely.People compare features between products all the time it's one of the main uses of the internet and when and if they try products and find greatly differing results I think it's important and interesting to know why,maybe others can learn from it. Isn't that the raison d'etre of a forum such as this?I'm not here to plug a plugin or a Sonar competitor I've tried everything I can think of to find a solution to get it to work with Sonar and every suggestion on this thread,nothing worked I think it's only natural to feel a bit disappointed but you know it's not exactly life threatening I'll simply use the other product. Thanks to all who contributed.
post edited by Pict - 2014/01/10 22:51:16
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stevec
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/10 22:44:00
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Pict Steve could you tell me which presets you used in Nebula?
Sure: 300 Spartans, 70 Rich Chamber, 70 Small Room, Old Plate 11, 70 Chorus, StateOfLogicMD, Boeing 747 Comp, AlexB DigiTubEx, New Man and EQ_Tape_WarmBus. It was just a completely random selection, with the only intent to pick from the various categories (pre, comp, reverb, etc)
SteveC https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163 SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors; Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO); Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
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Pict
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/10 22:46:37
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Thanks Steve I'll try them out on my system.
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stevec
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/10 23:04:57
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No problem. One thing I was wondering was whether the difference between Nebula Server and Nebula Free is a factor, so perhaps testing these particular presets may help. Also, I've just uploaded the CWP and AVI showing playback on my system to https://bentley.sharefile.com/d/s337dc4f2a55442da if you want to have a look. I hope you're able to track down something to explain this difference!
SteveC https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163 SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors; Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO); Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
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Pict
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/11 00:10:46
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Steve using your combination in Sonar on 1 track on my machine uses less than a 3rd of the 1st core and about a 6th of the remaining 3 cores which is a very dramatic difference,but the ASIO buffer has to be raised to 1024 to eliminate pops completely.I think I know why,the kernel count is very low on most of those libraries but most of the libraries I'm using have much higher kernel counts from 6 to 11 compared to 1 kernel in 7 of the presets you used the eq tape warmbus uses 11 the newman uses 5 and the Alexb uses 6 kernels it's when using these higher quality(more kernels) libraries that Sonar chokes at 6 but the other product doesn't until 16 instances with an ASIO buffer setting of 128.The more kernels the higher the processor demand.When I tried on my old duo core 3.06 GHz mac with Logic 9 only 4 instances could be used and the 1st core was being used to the max and the 2nd core hardly touched.
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Pict
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/11 00:15:56
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Oh and I forgot to say thanks very much for taking the time to do the testing and upload the videos
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?
2014/01/11 08:37:27
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codamedia Does the software come with any support? Have you contacted Acustica Audio to see if they can make any suggestions? Have they tested their product with Sonar X3 (or even an older version of Sonar)? Are other people reporting this problem with them - do they even know a problem exists? Does Nebula have settings to tweak? If so, don't assume the same settings work between all DAWs. Surely they want their software to work efficiently in any DAW or they risk losing customers. If every VST was performing badly in Sonar then it might be fair to point a finger at Cakewalk. But this appears to be more of an isolated problem - maybe Nebula needs a tweak, not Sonar. (Didn't Waves just release an update late last year related to Sonar compatibility?) Just sayin ...
+1. If you are seeing a drastic difference only with this plugin, your first line of action should be to contact that specific vendor and ask if they have done compatibility testing with SONAR. Perhaps they may be able to offer some support/workarounds regarding this. If they do indeed detect a compatibility issue with SONAR that requires our attention, ask them to contact us via this form and it will be investigated. We also provide free NFR's for companies to test their plugins with our products. The developer support form to be used for compatibility reports is here: www.cakewalk.com/About/email.aspx?EID=11
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