BRuys
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Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
So I have just renewed my Sonar Platinum membership and also upgraded to Melodyne 4 Studio. Looks like the tempo detection in Melodyne is spectacular - it doesn't even need transients to find tempo - Wow!
Just wondering if, via ARA, we will be able to use this feature within Sonar and how that will work? I am yet to install my Melodyne upgrade - just been watching some videos of the new tempo detection at work in Melodyne. This has the potential to revolutionize how I record - could be the end of click tracks forever!
Just keen to know if there is a way to match Sonar to the detected tempo in any automated way? Anyone know?
Bill.
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subtlearts
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/20 06:55:22
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☄ Helpfulby JoeHans 2016/01/20 07:27:31
Here's what Noel said in reply to my query about interaction with Melodyne's tempo map in another thread... Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
subtlearts
That sounds like a reasonable workaround, but it would be even more brilliant if it could all be done internally with Studio running as a plugin. Hmm. I'm going to install the demo and play around a bit...
We have plans of improving this part of the ARA integration in a future release. It shouldn't be very difficult.
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gswitz
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/20 08:33:44
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I just upgraded to studio as well. I'm looking forward to new functionality and I'm psyched Noel is going to help integrate it.
Do remember that one advantage of a click track is that the tempo doesn't vary. Most tempo sync VSTs may click when forced to change tempo within the song. For that reason, I have long since been content to approximate song tempo for songs not recorded to a click or drum track. A constantly varying tempo is a problem for most tempo sync VSTs.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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subtlearts
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/20 08:44:59
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gswitz
Do remember that one advantage of a click track is that the tempo doesn't vary. Most tempo sync VSTs may click when forced to change tempo within the song. For that reason, I have long since been content to approximate song tempo for songs not recorded to a click or drum track. A constantly varying tempo is a problem for most tempo sync VSTs.
That's a good point. Might take a little massaging to get things to sound right...
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BRuys
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/20 17:38:44
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gswitz
I just upgraded to studio as well. I'm looking forward to new functionality and I'm psyched Noel is going to help integrate it.
Do remember that one advantage of a click track is that the tempo doesn't vary. Most tempo sync VSTs may click when forced to change tempo within the song. For that reason, I have long since been content to approximate song tempo for songs not recorded to a click or drum track. A constantly varying tempo is a problem for most tempo sync VSTs.
Actually, to the contrary, I have on a few occasions mapped out the tempo of a non-clicktrack-sync'd song in Sonar, either by playing in my own tempo midi part and using fit to improvisation, or by right clicking and setting beat-1, bar-1 here and so on. This results in Sonar's tempo meter changing continuously during the song, but each beat falls in line with the grid. When I have used tempo-based synths or effects on these projects, they have followed the tempo beautifully with no artifacts or clicks whatsoever. What particular VST FX have given you trouble? I note that Melodyne 4 can actually generate a variable click-track as an exported midi file. With this, we should be able to use the fit to improvisation tool to set the tempo to a non-sync'd recording. Ultimately, though, if this can be engineered as an automated process by the bakers, I would be in heaven! Bill.
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gswitz
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/20 21:30:43
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BRuysWhen I have used tempo-based synths or effects on these projects, they have followed the tempo beautifully with no artifacts or clicks whatsoever. What particular VST FX have given you trouble?
I usually notice it with Delays (like the VX64-VocalStrip). Tempo Sync'd delays are often problems (even Amp Sim related tempo Sync'd Delays. I'll try to make an example file for you to hear.
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skinnybones lampshade
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/20 21:42:38
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I would be interested in hearing that too, gswitz. I'm very excited about the prospect of using Melodyne's tempo detection and being able to play the first track freely.
So it will be important to understand how different VSTs may react to the tempo map and its continual fine variations.
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gswitz
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/20 23:54:50
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http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/20160120_TempoTest.mp3 http://stabilitynetwork.blob.core.windows.net/g-tunes/20160120_TempoTest.png I believe that there is some shortcoming associated with tempo sync'ing a VST that prevents it from working as smoothly as changing the time dial while not in tempo sync mode. I'm not sure why. Lots of tempo sync'd effects (used to be this one) pop and click. I reported this maybe 4 years ago? Some long time ago. And they apparently made it so it works less badly now when there are changes to tempo (doesn't click, races to a zero crossing and starts over - haha). But this isn't what we would expect as users. As a user, I would expect all material that was into the effect at a certain tempo to play through the effect at that tempo while new material would play through at new tempos. I would expect that the time value could be changed without issue. Really, if you want to use a tempo sync'd effect, you should mute the effect through tempo changes unless you are sure it properly handles them. For me, when mixing performances recorded live without a click, I just listen in the middle of the tune, tap the tempo onto the tempo setting form within Sonar and let the whole song be at that tempo. This is not useful for aligning drum beats etc, but I really don't bother with that.
post edited by gswitz - 2016/01/21 00:01:54
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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subtlearts
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/21 09:57:37
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Changing tempo on the fly can certainly make a tempo-sync'd delay go squirrelly. Ideally it shouldn't pop or click, but there may be some wonky pitch artifacts as, in effect, the delay time is changing mid-operation. There are dub tunes where this was done intentionally to create weird pitch/delay effects. Subtle continuous change in tempo is unlikely to generate anything over the top, but it might be noticeable on close listening.
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gswitz
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/21 13:41:27
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StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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gswitz
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/21 15:20:02
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subtlearts
but there may be some wonky pitch artifacts as, in effect, the delay time is changing mid-operation.
This makes me think of the Nomad effects which try to emulate analog stuff. I'll try that one next. Overloud also has a delay I could test in tempo sync. Melda Productions probably had a good one too.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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BRuys
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/21 17:06:27
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Guys, I have been giving the tempo tools in Melodyne 4 Studio a workout. I have to say, Melodyne's tempo manipulation is INSANE!!!! Also, if you have plug-in that doesn't play nice with varying tempo, Melodyne does an incredible job flattening the tempo to a constant, so then you don't have to worry about tempo changes, because you don't have any! And the whole project sounds perfect, with no artifacts.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/21 22:31:00
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I must be thinking of this backwards. What I would like to do is take live recordings (which usually include clean bass and kick tracks that Melodyne can easily recognize), and use that to line up the measures in Sonar. I don't want to stretch the live sound, or alter the live recording in any way. I want the measures in SONAR to line up with the music so that I can add some MIDI tracks or other audio tracks with the measures matching the music.
Is something like this possible?
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BRuys
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/21 22:52:01
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cparmerlee
I must be thinking of this backwards. What I would like to do is take live recordings (which usually include clean bass and kick tracks that Melodyne can easily recognize), and use that to line up the measures in Sonar. I don't want to stretch the live sound, or alter the live recording in any way. I want the measures in SONAR to line up with the music so that I can add some MIDI tracks or other audio tracks with the measures matching the music.
Is something like this possible?
It should be, yes. Melodyne can detect the tempo (and does so better than anything I have ever seen before). From there, you can export the tempo as a midi file (it's like a click track generated from your original audio). You should then be able to bring that midi data into your Sonar project and use "Fit to Improvisation" to get all your measures and beats aligned. Where Melodyne really shines is with audio without apparent transients. It understands the notes and melodies and can detect tempo from that. All other products I've seen rely on transients and do very poorly when there are not significant transients to detect. From my experience so far, the tempo detection and manipulation is bordering on miraculous. I will be testing using Melodyne to pick up the tempo and performing a Fit to Improvisation in the next couple of days and will report back with my experiences. So stay tuned... Bill.
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gswitz
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/22 08:42:56
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One trick that can be helpful when changing in the tempo of a project you have been working on in Sonar is to set clip and track Time Base to Absolute from Musical. For clips, you can simply ctrl+a and go to the clips pane in the track inpector and ctrl+click it to change the setting for all clips. Tracks and buses must be set 1 at a time. Be careful not to miss one. If you miss one, the location of track and bus automation may shift and skew over the music. It would really help if there was a macro that would change the entire project to absolute time. You do not need melodyne to alter your project tempo to fit your performance, but Melodyne might make it easier. I haven't done with Melodyne yet.
post edited by gswitz - 2016/01/22 08:58:00
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/22 10:09:58
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I am still confused. It seems to me some of the above discussion talks about audio artifacts that are created when applying a tempo map because that causes stretching of the material. That sounds almost as if some people are wanting to use the Melodyne tempo map on flexible (rubato) music to turn the music into rigid timing, as if done with a click track. I want to do the opposite. I want the flexible music to remain (no stretching, no artifacts), but I want the SONAR measures to line up with the flexible music.
I know there is a very tedious manual procedure to do this, as I tried that a year or two ago, but it was a real PITA. If Melodyne is able to automate this, that would open up many possibilities for me.
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gswitz
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/22 10:38:16
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No. I would not try to use it to flatten the tempo of a live performance.
I'm talking about importing a good tempo map which is handy.
I'm also pointing out that some Tempo-Sync'd effects basically mute and restart every time the tempo changes. If you have tempo map that is continuously varying, the effects produce unmusical sounds (glitchy). Some pop and click.
That was my message. This is not just the case for importing tempo maps from Melodyne. It is any time you have a continuously varying tempo.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/22 10:46:08
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gswitz
some Tempo-Sync'd effects basically mute and restart every time the tempo changes. If you have tempo map that is continuously varying, the effects produce unmusical sounds (glitchy). Some pop and click.
OK. I get it now. Thanks. But wouldn't that be considered a bug?
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gswitz
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/22 10:59:19
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I thought it was a bug when I first discovered it. The makers of the VSTs do not seem to. The problem exists over lots of plugins and companies. When the device is tempo sync'd and the tempo changes it either mutes quickly and comes back at the new tempo or it pops and clicks as it jumps to the new tempo. The result sounds awful (see examples above).
But I think it's kind-of a limitation of the delays. If I could imagine how it might work, I would basically create a new VST instance at the new tempo, fade out the old one and fade in the new one. Then the results of the two delays would merge together at the new tempo. This wouldn't be a big deal if tempo changes were infrequent. When they are , it could create a garbage collection issue if not a memory issue. Also, melting the two delays together at varying tempos could sound goofy too.
I'm not sure there is a perfect way to handle it. The most important thing is to recognize it.
5 years ago, I thought it would be great to create tight tempo maps of my projects (and I regularly did). I did this largely for the purpose of adding tempo sync'd delays but also for adding synth work.
I have since really stopped doing this. I now just measure the projects tempo roughly at a high point in the project and use that tempo for tempo sync'd delays.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Boydie
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/23 07:51:42
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@BRuys
I can't wait for your report as the Melodyne Studio videos look like some kind of "black magic" - I was thinking this when a NAMM interviewer said they would have been burned as witches in the Middle Ages!!!
I am also curious about the multitrack within Melodyne and how this integrates with Sonar
During this interview the Celemony guy indicated that the audio tracks showing in Melodyne are the DAW (eg Sonar) audio tracks?
Is this really the case? Can you open Melodyne Studio as a plugin in Sonar and work on multiple audio tracks simultaneously? Eg to do the "copy tonal footprint from one track and apply it to another" trick?
This seems too good to be true - especially as it looks like if you already have an Editor version the upgrade price is $149!!!
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gswitz
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/23 08:40:08
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I think in Sonar you are better off using it as a Region Effect. Noel has promised even tighter integration in the next Sonar Release (Manchester (?)) and this includes multi-track functionality. I can't remember a time when two software companies were so carefully tied together. If you like Melodyne, be grateful for Sonar's ARA support. It really makes it a dreamy love affair.
post edited by gswitz - 2016/01/23 08:54:09
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Boydie
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/23 10:39:11
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Amen to that
The current implementation is a dream - to add the new features will be a match made in heaven
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mettelus
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/23 11:14:02
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Man, I got depressed coming across this one... Melodyne's own videos... if you go to http://www.celemony.com/en/melodyne/new-in-melodyne-4 and scroll down to the "Melodyne explained: the First Steps videos" and click on that video, it pops open their video window. At the bottom of that pop-up there is a video listing (starts at "Introduction"), but if you click on the listing and scroll down there is an "ARA - Studio One" and "ARA - Sonar"... although they tried to make the content identical, there is a massive discrepency between those two videos.... tempo.
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gswitz
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/23 19:06:43
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Nah. It's not a massive diff. You can import the tempo maps to Sonar. Plus, this was pre-Manchester. Let's see what Noel adds in. He mentioned multi-track work in Sonar is on the way. Why not tempo? In the short term, you can already import the tempo to Sonar.
post edited by gswitz - 2016/01/23 19:21:29
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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briandhughes
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/24 08:49:45
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mettelus
At the bottom of that pop-up there is a video listing (starts at "Introduction"), but if you click on the listing and scroll down there is an "ARA - Studio One" and "ARA - Sonar"... although they tried to make the content identical, there is a massive discrepency between those two videos.... tempo.
The big difference is : You can drag the tempo from the Melodyne Studio plugin to the tempo track in Studio One. I am sure the CW team will come up with something for us. Brian
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gswitz
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/24 17:55:11
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I just spent some time playing with the alg. I started with a guitar track I recorded to a AD2 beat and an explicit tempo. There were occasional peaks and valleys that weren't correct. In general it follows the temp fairly well, but I'm not at all sure that I'll be importing any tempo maps from Melodyne. I thought I'd post this just in case anyone was aiming to upgrade to Melodyne just for the tempo detection. Tempo detection might be cool for adding synths or converting midi to sheet music, but I wouldn't use it to add any tempo sync'd effects. It might be interesting to record a track to AD2 then extract the tempo from the guitar track (played to AD2 at a fixed tempo) and sync AD2 to that tempo and see if it sounds better. I have a feeling on this one, but I'd be pleased to be proved wrong. It might get you that subtle push and pull of the tempo which is natural. Then you could set the midi track for AD2 to absolute time and reset the tempo to the flat rate for tempo sync'd effects. It'd be subtle and perhaps cool.
post edited by gswitz - 2016/01/24 18:10:50
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/24 23:49:43
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gswitz
I started with a guitar track I recorded to a AD2 beat and an explicit tempo. There were occasional peaks and valleys that weren't correct. ... but I'm not at all sure that I'll be importing any tempo maps from Melodyne.
Well, if you recorded to a click track in the first place, I wouldn't think there would be a lot of room for Melodyne's tempo track to improve on things. One thing I am not clear about (and I guess I need to put in the time to experiment) is how this works with multiple tracks. I assume we are talking about the stand-alone mode of Melodyne. If you pull in several tracks (piano, gtr, bass and drums), does Melodyne use all of that information to come up with a single tempo map?
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PeterMc
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/25 01:03:01
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☄ Helpfulby cparmerlee 2016/01/25 01:18:47
I've been experimenting with multiple tracks in Melodyne 4 Studio standalone. The first track imported is analyzed for tempo, and sets the tempo for that Melodyne project. This can vary every beat, and there are options to smooth it over several bars or beats if required. The second and subsequent tracks imported (if auto-stretch is turned on) are also analyzed for tempo, and then automatically stretched to fit the initial tempo. This has worked very well for two click tracks at 160 bpm and 180 bpm. They line up almost perfectly, although there is some flanging noticeable.
There are various tricks for polyphonic material according to the help videos. For example, instruments/vocals that are not particularly rhythmic (such as free or legato sax solos) should be excluded from the mix used for that first track if possible. The tempo is determined as an average from the various notes detected using the DNA algorithm. If some notes are "free" it can weird the averaging out.
I'm still playing with this - there's quite a steep learning curve, but I think it's worth it. It seems like a powerful program. The vocal corrections using version 2 over the last couple of years have been very impressive if used carefully.
Cheers, Peter.
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PeterMc
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/25 01:05:57
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☄ Helpfulby dantarbill 2016/04/14 11:40:22
p.s. To get the analyzed tempo into Sonar, you export the tempo map as a midi file, then open this file in a new Sonar project.
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BRuys
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Re: Will Sonar integrate with Melodyne 4's new tempo detection?
2016/01/25 05:17:35
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gswitz
I just spent some time playing with the alg. I started with a guitar track I recorded to a AD2 beat and an explicit tempo. There were occasional peaks and valleys that weren't correct.
Did you find the button that does a more comprehensive tempo scan? I'm not in the studio now, but it's called something like "in depth tempo scan". When I first tried detecting tempo on some pre-recorded tracks, I found it would get it wrong in a few spots. Hit that little button and it's perfect every time!
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