Like Jimmyboy, I rarely even get a reply when I report a bug (mind you I've only done it a few times) - or if I do get a reply, it's something like "we're gonna have a look at this...", and then hear nothing.

I just figured that that's the way it is - and it's probably too difficult to keep in touch with everyone who has logged a (real or imaginary) bug anyway.

So that's what we have the forums for... ;-)

Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]

JimmyBoy

Dan Cate [Cakewalk]
Hi John,
 
Reports that are sent in by users are verified and put into the cue for development. Email notifications are sent let users know the bug is in the system and being processed rather than sent into oblivion. How a bug gets processed is privileged information for Cakewalk staff only. We do not, nor should we, share this information. When an upgrade or update is released, we provide a report of bugs fixed in a KB article which includes the issue description and cwbrn numbers. 
 
As I stated above, user discussions are extremely helpful to us. If there is a particular issue or set of issues that are troublesome for you, please bring it up for discussion on the forum. I recommend using a separate thread and including cwbrn numbers if you have them. 

 
hi Dan,
 
I logged a bug several months ago and I know it is reproducible as others here had also confirmed the same. I have yet to have any response at all from the bug I reported. From my perspective the bug logged has gone into oblivion :/ I can't even access the bug I reported to see if there will be any progress on it or not...
 
Cheers
Jim

Hi Jim,
 
I only see two fault reports matching your email address. Did you manually send a bug report in or was it through the fault reporter? If you sent it in manually did you use a different email address? If you know the CWBRN #s I should be able to look it up, but I only came up with two results that were from fault reports.
 
We don't reply to fault reports. Here's the additional info that explains what happens next:

 
Hi Ryan,
 
If it wasn't for google & Alex's bug list I'd lose all track of the bug report I submitted, try this link here and you will see it 2nd from the top...
 
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=jimmyboy+CWBRN+site%3Aforum.cakewalk.com
 
Cheers
Jim

Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]

JimmyBoy
 
Hi Ryan,
 
If it wasn't for google & Alex's bug list I'd lose all track of the bug report I submitted, try this link here and you will see it 2nd from the top...
 
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=jimmyboy+CWBRN+site%3Aforum.cakewalk.com
 
Cheers
Jim

Hi Jim,
 
I don't rely on an unofficial list to try to find out who submitted what. I'm using the actual tools which only shows two reports matching your email address tied to the forum account. The only explanation is that you're referring to the fault reports I found or you used a different email address.
 
There's no need to send me "let me google that for you" links. I know how to reference the real systems we have in place. If you want to PM me your email addresses I could easily return a list of every report you've ever submitted to us so you don't have to use Google.
 
Thanks!
 
-Ryan
 
 
 
 

Hi Ryan,
 
Thanks for looking into this for me.... Really appreciate it, I know sometimes "state of the art" systems can fail and from time to time we need to look closer into it - I should have followed up earlier but had no time to do so as so many other things have a much more higher priority for me these days than to report some problem with your system.
 
Anyway, the email I used to file the report is the email I have registered with this forum user.
 
The use of lmgtfy is simply an illustration of the experience I have when logging a bug, and how frustrating it can become when expecting an update that never arrives and also not being able to lookup the bug I originally logged..
 
Cheers
Jim

Look what I've done and others is quite simple. Made sure there are clear steps to reproduce so that Cake QA can reproduce before it gets into their hands. We've then added it to a list so we can keep track as well as others. This has been a time consuming thankless task between sessions.

I have recently been told indirectly that since Dec when I started this directly after X3D Cakewalk has been receiving accurate and efficient reports. That's when I started this list out. I consider what we have done as extremely successful.

As a consequence I've been accused of being a Starlin to Hitler or 'some random bloke'. A lot of bad vibes as though we are here to create havok or I'm on some massive ego trip. Being told what we are doing is wrong does nothing but reinforce those views.

I will continue to monitor my state of art forum post as it helps me and others. When you come up with something better for consumers I shall abandon it, in the meantime I don't see anything wrong with it. We have been very careful in making sure the reports are accurate. I am happy to move it to a third party website if required. I think it was a mistake to rake up this discussion in public, we were after all discussing and lobbying for an X3F here, I'm easily PM'able and skypeable it could have easily been done out of public view.

Of course Cakewalk runs the show, but a little credit would have been nice with what we have done rather than usual putdowns which never ever reference what we actually do, rather how our personalities are supposedly perceived.

I state time after time Cakewalk having been doing a great job releasing patches.

Thank you...

Craig we just make sure the bugs are easily reproducable and create a list out of it. It ain't rocket science. I still love you and Cakewalk to bits but really it shouldn't be perceived as anything more complicated than this. If Cake QA want to take this task over then great as long as there is some accoutability and clear feedback I suggest. This is why these things are happening the way they are right now. I look forward to being obsolete very soon.

It appears to be a native written ASP.NET front end custom built. Just a web form.
 
Here is a recommendation for a state for art ASP.NET bug tracker, if you need a hand getting something like this running please let me know:
http://www.countersoft.com/
 
Cheers.

JimmyBoy

Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]

JimmyBoy
 
Hi Ryan,
 
If it wasn't for google & Alex's bug list I'd lose all track of the bug report I submitted, try this link here and you will see it 2nd from the top...
 
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=jimmyboy+CWBRN+site%3Aforum.cakewalk.com
 
Cheers
Jim

Hi Jim,
 
I don't rely on an unofficial list to try to find out who submitted what. I'm using the actual tools which only shows two reports matching your email address tied to the forum account. The only explanation is that you're referring to the fault reports I found or you used a different email address.
 
There's no need to send me "let me google that for you" links. I know how to reference the real systems we have in place. If you want to PM me your email addresses I could easily return a list of every report you've ever submitted to us so you don't have to use Google.
 
Thanks!
 
-Ryan
 
 
 
 

Hi Ryan,
 
Thanks for looking into this for me.... Really appreciate it, I know sometimes "state of the art" systems can fail and from time to time we need to look closer into it - I should have followed up earlier but had no time to do so as so many other things have a much more higher priority for me these days than to report some problem with your system.
 
Anyway, the email I used to file the report is the email I have registered with this forum user.
 
The use of lmgtfy is simply an illustration of the experience I have when logging a bug, and how frustrating it can become when expecting an update that never arrives and also not being able to lookup the bug I originally logged..
 
Cheers
Jim

Hi Jim,

Just wanted to follow up. On the report you referenced, looks like the breakdown happened due to a typo in your email address.

This explains no returned communication from Cakewalk and also why I couldn't locate it and you couldn't pull it up again. I can't update the address from my phone but I'll update it next time I have a few and I'm at my PC.

-Ryan

Alex I really don't think anyone on this thread tried to insult you. Nor did they say what you and others are doing is "wrong."

I take it what the bakers are saying as:

the service that the list provides to x number of users is outweighed by the disservice it provides to the company and forum as a whole.

IOW, your and the others efforts are commendable, but the effort could be put to better use.

I believe as you do Alex, the discussions we as forum users have had about the problems we experienced has contributed to the updates, but it is not the only contributing factor.

As a long time user, and longtime forum member, I like the way things are. X3 is a great product.

Grem
Alex I really don't think anyone on this thread tried to insult you. Nor did they say what you and others are doing is "wrong."

I take it what the bakers are saying as:

the service that the list provides to x number of users is outweighed by the disservice it provides to the company and forum as a whole.

IOW, your and the others efforts are commendable, but the effort could be put to better use.

IMHO it's simpler than that. Think of it this way: If there was a bug-tracking forum, this would not even be an issue because there would be a venue for bug-tracking that would not create a split personality within the main forum.
 
As an analogy, suppose you went to a club to see a concert. Every 15 minutes, a very bright engineer gets up and talks for a few minutes about the technology used by the band. Then the band resumes playing for another 15 minutes. Some people in the audience (including myself, LOL) would find that interesting, but I think most people would be waiting for the band to start playing again. And someone walking into the club while the engineer was talking would think "Hmmm, I thought this was a place to hear music...guess I'll go find a club where a band is playing."
 
As to why there currently isn't a bug-tracking forum, the Bakers can speak to that but I assume it's because 1) they find the current bug-tracking system better suited to their needs than a forum, 2) they feel there are potentially better ways to do this than a forum (which tends to be difficult to organize), so there's little point in starting something now that will be replaced eventually by something better.
 
The bottom line isn't really about how bugs are tracked, it's about whether there's a mechanism in place that allows Cakewalk to assimilate information from the field efficiently and allows them to fix AND then QC bugs. There currently is one that works very well internally, but is not public-facing. However as Ryan said above, Cakewalk is evaluating ways to provide a better customer experience for dealing with feedback to the user base on reports. Meanwhile, the efforts that go into identifying and reproducing bugs is appreciated; the proof is in the bugfix list for each update, and the thanks Cakewalk gives to the user base with each update.

Alex, you took it upon yourself to do this so I fail to see why Cakewalk should thank you for a task that you werent asked to do...I havent seen a single reference as to when the Bakers have citied you as "evil".
 
Obviously you have put alot of work in here, and thats to your credit. But as such, its so personal to you but really not that personal to alot of us users who dont really want the forum swamped with bug reports. Also, to alot of new users even your username suggests you are official Cakewalk, which obviously you are not. To that end, its my humble opinion that you setup a forum thats not in official Sonar land where we can all help you with your bug list there (I say this in the nicest possible way)
 
I think Anderton is very correct with his analogy about going into a gig... Alot of people come to this forum with a problem or to rave how good the product is, they dont expect to come into a QA forum.

I cant think of a single company that likes talking about defects in their product in an online public forum, its not good for business. The fact that they chime in here at all is a credit to them.

>  Also, to alot of new users even your username suggests you are official Cakewalk, which obviously you are not.
 
I already volunteered to have it changed...

Dan Gonzalez [Cakewalk]
I like your forum name, no need to change it :)

 
>  I fail to see why Cakewalk should thank you for a task that you werent asked to do
 
I don't care about being thanked, I care about being told "it can stand in the way of true feedback from our customers" when what I am pointing to in the list is in fact true feedback from customers (?).

"What is not useful to us is lists of bugs...  not a competing database for defect tracking."
 
So thanks for the acknowledgement...
 
> But as such, its so personal to you but really not that personal to alot of us users who dont really want the forum swamped with bug reports
 
#78 Point (5).
 

CakeAlexS
5) Stop moaning at me about the forum traffic as though this is somehow my responsibility. Give us our own forum then and allow us to move relevant posts across related to reproducible bugs. Or give us better front facing tools like this configured with the right public facing permissions, rather than a dead end web form.

 
Not my problem to resolve. Over to Cakewalk.

"If what I do does such a great disservice in the forums I'm more than willing to fork it to another website"
That would be a good idea, Alex!

CakeAlexS
 
 
Which translates to me as "what you have done is not of value to us, we don't thank you at all for your input". BTW I am making music. My intention was always to work with Cake not against, the impression I see from Cake is that they think I'm doing vice-versa. I'm not the person building the walls here, I'm the person stating over and over again they are doing a great job.

 
Dude, really. You are misreading between the lines there I think.
 
Anyway, I am bowing out of this as I'm working on some parallel compression on a final mix.

I've just re-read the Terms of Service and am quite sure that talking about issues a lot or listing bugs or posting/bumping many threads in one day isn't against the rules or inappropriate.
 
For example, it says:
 
"In this peer-to-peer environment, forum users are encouraged to answer questions, share experiences and give advice to their fellow users."
 
Issues are part of experiences. So listing them and sharing them with other users is absolutely fine.
 
Also this:
 
"By registering with the Cakewalk Forum, users agree that any post the moderators consider inappropriate may be removed at the moderator's sole discretion."
 
None of the issues listed in the bug thread or the thread itself didn't get removed. So, they are all appropriate.
 
If there are people who still find what Alex has been doing with his bug thread inappropriate, I think they should request CW to update the Terms of Service. That's what they should do first. For example, another forum (not music forum) I know says in its forum rules that its forum users should do their best to ensure that no more than 5 of their threads appear on the front page of its forum at any one time.
 
Hope that helps

CakeAlexS
 4) Stop being frightened about talking about bugs in public and in the open. Dealt with the right hand it actually improves your image against competitors. People are less concerned with actual bugs, they are more concerned with what is happening to tackle it or finding out whether somebody else has it so "it's not just them". I can entirely understand why Cake does not want to talk about features though, that is a totally different kettle of fish..
 
5) Stop moaning at me about the forum traffic as though this is somehow my responsibility. Give us our own forum then and allow us to move relevant posts across related to reproducible bugs. Or give us better front facing tools likethis configured with the right public facing permissions, rather than a dead end web form.
 
If what I do does such a great disservice in the forums I'm more than willing to fork it to another website. Opinion seems to be split down the middle, and there are those who remain out of view, so we must be doing something right. Either way we are doing it for genuine reasons and not to rock the boat so my conscience is clear.
 
"If what I do does such a great disservice in the forums I'm more than willing to fork it to another website"
 
Cake just has to say the word. I'm not sure Cake would like this however as it opens up a whole other set of issues when the tentacles get spread elsewhere. I don't want to end up with a "competing database" scenario either. #78 Point (5) would be far more preferable. 

I guess I don't understand the ultimate goal here. I'd like to express that it seems like you're trying to dissuade everyone from using a system that DOES work. We've been releasing updates to our software largely based on user feedback well before your involvement here. That isn't to say your involvement isn't appreciated, because it definitely is. But it seems like you're spreading the message that we need to fix all kinds of stuff and if we don't you're going to do it for us. I don't know how many times I can repeat this to you, but we have some major projects in the works and I think in the long run you'll be quite happy with the improvements. These things take time though.
 
If customers are concerned about accountability and if things are being done to improve the products, we just released five major updates to SONAR that included hundreds of bug fixes, many of which were reported directly by users. I'd like to think that speaks volumes about how much Cakewalk cares about user feedback.
 
Try to understand that there's a lot more to our problem reporting then that simple web form (it's also integrated with our fault reporting system which is quite advanced and has resulted in some pretty major stability fixes). We have pushes to several different services using different APis that allow us to manage the flow of data in several ways for different teams. There is a reason we maintain control over the system, and it has to do with the direct benefit of how we know we can make the product better based on how things work behind the scenes. Just because you don't have an inside look at our processes and the form itself is a bit ugly to look at, doesn't meant here aren't some sophisticated systems behind the scenes.
 
Alex, my message is and has been extremely simple from the start. I personally am very thankful for your contributions and everyone's contributions here on the forums. If I never personally thanked you directly, it's only because I always thank the community in general. I'm sorry that wasn't clearer, but I am thankful to people like you, Jlien X, robert_e_bones and our beta team who contribute so much.
 
I think my only fear is that some of your posts seem like they're dissuading people from using the systems we have in place, which ultimately makes things worse for everyone. It sometimes comes across as if you're undermining our business practices and it makes it very difficult for our staff to do our job.  If Cakewalk staff is telling you that working against us makes things harder, the direct result is less time spent improving the product. 
 
I've had direct interaction with you multiple times over PM, where you refuse to accept my explanations for things despite the fact that they've been based purely on facts. You suggest improvements need to be made, but are confused about the systems in general. I honestly don't get it because I'm making an genuine honest effort to explain this to you and have been 100% honest every step of the way. Every time I turn around, it feels as if you want to call us out on not being organized, yet again you seem to be very misled about the facts of what is happening behind the scenes here at Cakewalk and how things work. This isn't the first time we've gone through this. This is why I keep getting involved with conversing with you. I'm not trying to have an public argument with you, but try to understand I feel like I don't have a choice but to speak publicly about it because of sarcastic remarks like this. I think you know what I'm talking about here. It feels like you just don't want to work with us nor accept our explanations for things. I'm only being honest here. It bums me out that I feel like you and I haven't been able to see eye to eye yet, when we're actually both pretty passionate about SONAR, Cakewalk and this community.
 
I understand you want to be helpful, but please try to consider how deflating it can be when you work months on end to deliver five MAJOR free updates to a program and the next day are met with tons of bumped posts about "what wasn't fixed", many of which were very minor in the grand scheme of things. I honestly had a hard time thinking the entire rest of the day. It truthfully bummed me out that our message was being overshadowed by this (on several sites across the internet). Try to consider how that affects our ability to reach our customers and sell a product we're extremely proud of. 
 
Also try to consider that someone who truthfully cares about this software, it's customers, and the future of the company is telling you that we have a plan in place and that not allowing us to roll it out is making it hard for us. Suggesting to create a site elsewhere, when nobody at Cakewalk has been trying to undermine your efforts, seems like (I hate to use this word) but it seems like a threat. The end result will surely be more work and less progress on everyone at Cakewalk. Customers need to know the clear and proper way to report bugs to Cakewalk. We've stated how this is done. Tone is extremely hard to convey in text, and I think if you knew Dan in person you'd understand that he just wants to deal with the monotony of bug tracking and let customers work on music. I don't think he meant what he said in a condescending way. For people that want to be involved in bug tracking, we have a beta team. We've let you know about this, but it doesn't seem like you're interested.
 
We've had customers make websites before about issues that were completely beyond our control, and it didn't help. If anything it probably hurt sales, which in turn makes it harder to develop the software as a result of fewer resources. I'm telling you and everyone else, repeatedly, that we have things in the works to improve our website overall. Dan is telling you that QA has a very good process for bug tracking. Can't these things be enough for now?
 
My suggestion is continue to tell people how they can work with us, which is to continue using the problem report form (as you have been doing) and contact us via the proper methods to make sure we have things on file and can follow up appropriately. Nobody has asked you or told you to stop maintaining your list, but I think it needs to be made clear that we have ideas in mind for improving things and we need people to allow us to do this.