Jim Roseberry
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 00:46:24
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I do think windows 8 is a faster os, im not the only one to say this as well. :) FWIW, I'm talking about X2 performance running a typical project. Performance is about the same under Win7 and Win8. Boot-time is fast under Win8 I'm using a Z77 motherboard and a SSD for the OS... so boot-time is pretty quick whether running Win7 or Win8.  Win8 is pretty slick with a multi-touch monitor... as opposed to just using a mouse. Things like shut-down and restart are quick/easy... and you can see why certain features function the way they do...
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NorthernElite
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 04:18:24
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Glyn Barnes
The great thing about classic shell is you never see it, I don't see why Microsoft could not offer the option to boot into metro or desktop
Just took a look at the classic shell website, yeah that does look pretty cool. For reference: http://www.classicshell.net/ I'll certainly give this one a spin when I try Win 8 next time. thanks.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 06:06:56
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Talk about gag me with a spoon. 
Bet ya havn't heard that in a while. That stuff's like gross - totalllllyyy
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 08:06:33
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I don't have any more information than anyone else, but I think people are confusing the desktop UI with Win32 applications. They are 2 different things. The desktop UI is just the old flat screen with icons and the start menu. That was replaced by the Metro tile based UI. You can however still run Win32 apps from the tiles. While the start menu and Windows desktop UI will likely go away completely soon, there there is no way in hell that desktop *applications* themselves (applications based on the Win32 SDK) will not be supported in Windows anytime soon. It would be business suicide for MS to do that. I suspect it will be 10 years or more before Win32 applications stop being supported. Its possible that 32 bit applications might be phased out quicker but 64 bit apps, unlikely. Anyone remember how long it took to phase out 16 bit DOS applications? As much as Microsoft would like to get rid of Win32 (to reduce their support and maintenance costs obviously) its going to be a long ride. There are millions of applications built on Win32 and they won't go away overnight. What is likely to happen IMO is that the new WinRT framework will get richer over time to a point where it won't have some of the limitations that it has today. At that point most app vendors would have migrated their apps to WinRT. Even if desktop UI itself goes away completely in future Windows OS's, there will most certainly have to be a way to launch Win32 apps - you can do that today from the metro tile UI. And even if MS removes that there will be 1 million 3'rd party desktop replacement's that will allow you to do this so I wouldn't worry too much. While I personally don't think WinRT is a mature enough replacement for Win32 yet, at least for the needs of applications like ours, Win8 was definitely a step in the right direction for Microsoft. Just look at what you can do with touch and the ability to move seamlessly from a desktop PC to a tablet/mobile pc running the identical app, which is killer! I suspect some of the clunkiness with the initial Win8 transition will be improved in the next generation OS. Most of it is just the user interface dealing with the new UI paradigm and not the OS core itself.
post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - 2013/03/28 08:14:03
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NorthernElite
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 08:23:06
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Noel - really appreciate you taking the time to respond to this thread - reassuring indeed and also adds some much needed clarity on this subject. Great to get direct feedback and reaffirms what I said about a brilliant product and user forum. thx.
post edited by NorthernElite - 2013/03/28 08:52:04
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mmorgan
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 10:09:09
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I really think the discussion of Win 7 vs 8 is like deja vu all over again.
I seem to recall when Windows 3.0 came out almost everyone was critizing it , including me, in my most wonkish voice proclaiming the UI as "user condescending". Bring back the C:\ prompt for gods sake (nicely formatted with ASCII escape codes ;-)).
So even though I currently await new drivers for my soundcard I will be moving to Win 8 in due course. Undoubtedly I will scratch my head over the Metro scheme, and then I will dig in and learn it's advantages and try to turn them to my advantage.
Personnaly, I applaud Cakewalks effort to start incorporating the latest Win 8 features in Sonar. Here's to the future!
Regards,
Mike Win8(64), Sonar X3e(64) w/ RME Fireface UFX.
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munmun
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 11:14:37
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Microsoft is going nowhere. The company is doomed. They can now only milk their declining desktop business. Even that isn't going so well. Windows 8 now accounts for 1.5% of all windows installations since launch. That makes it the slowest launch ever for them. People just don't need to upgrade. Also where a home may have had multiple desktops and laptops once upon a time, that is being changed by the emergence of mobile. A market that microsoft famously missed. http://www.forbes.com/sit...me-over-ballmer-loses/ This article made some waves when it appeared. So where is the future? The cloud? Apps? Mobile? Desktop will probably be reduced to a niche market for specialized applications. There is no rule book that says that music must ideally be made on a desktop. And what does that mean for us? My hunch is that 5-10 years hence few of us will be on windows as we migrate to other hardware platforms. So what does that mean for Sonar? Don't know. But if I was Cakewalk I would be creatively thinking through future servicing models for their user base.
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munmun
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 11:27:08
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And just to add to the above, here is what market shares for windows looks like when pooled with mobile devices. It is no longer the biggest player and it is losing share. That must be concern for cakewalk. Everytime someone gets a tablet, they will not use Sonar. And that seems to be a trend that will continue.
Microsoft is currently headed the way of Kodak. Once upon a time Kodak were just as dominant. Nobody predicted that they would be reduced to bankruptcy.
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soundtweaker
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 11:27:45
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The desktop wont go away for a while but in future versions, it will be turned off by default.
Legacy apps will eventually run in a type of emulation mode.
We're already starting to see parts of the desktop being moved to the
modern UI like Control panel settings in leaked versions of the Windows Blue update.
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munmun
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 11:32:57
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I don't think that the desktop will ever go away. But it will be reduced to specialized applications that need the screen real estate.
Music will still be made on desktops. But it will also be made on a host of mobile devices as well. That is what I would worry about as Cakewalk. Being tethered to windows only is not a winning strategy for the future.
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Paul P
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 12:25:07
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munmun : "I don't think that the desktop will ever go away. But it will be reduced to specialized applications that need the screen real estate. "
I need real estate. I've always wanted bigger and bigger screens and only have a laptop for portability and not Sonar.
Give me a wall I can stand up in front of.
Unfortunately, the trend is towards smaller and smaller. I can't imagine reading this forum on phone, but apparently a lot of you do. Or running Sonar on a iPad, or a laptop for that matter.
Whatever happened to ease of use (and sight) ?
Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
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bitflipper
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 12:29:34
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Anyone remember how long it took to phase out 16 bit DOS applications? I do. And then again with 16-bit Windows applications. I experienced it in both the desktop computer and enterprise mainframe worlds. At the time, I resented the lie promulgated by Microsoft, which was that 16-bit applications could not be multi-tasked, which I knew to be untrue because I'd been working for years with preemptively multi-tasking 16-bit operating systems.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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munmun
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 12:29:52
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Apparently for many, mobility and speed trumps sitting down for most computer activities. There are a lot of people making music on iPads these days. Cakewalk has lost everyone of them as a potential user. Being tied to Microsoft is no longer an asset. Ask Nokia. Their big bet on windows phone is failing.
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John T
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 12:30:46
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I'm completely open to the idea that a better user interface paradigm than the desktop might appear. I'm not all that bothered about that. I think for people doing Serious Work, though (eg: audio, video editing, CAD, software development, all that stuff), what we're going to see is the cost of our computers creeping up. We've been through a long period where the computer and OS could be roughly similar spec for all three of home, office and "Serious Work" use. I think those days are coming to a close. I think there will always be a pro-user platform, but it's going to be more specialised than it was, and more niche, hence likely more expensive.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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munmun
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 12:31:59
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John T
I'm completely open to the idea that a better user interface paradigm than the desktop might appear. I'm not all that bothered about that. I think for people doing Serious Work, though (eg: audio, video editing, CAD, software development, all that stuff), what we're going to see is the cost of our computers creeping up. We've been through a long period where the computer and OS could be roughly similar spec for all three of home, office and "Serious Work" use. I think those days are coming to a close. I think there will always be a pro-user platform, but it's going to be more specialised than it was, and more niche, hence likely more expensive.
+!
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Paul P
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 12:37:10
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There are an awful lot of engineering workstations out there and I don't see them disappearing any time soon.
I see daws running on a workstation much more that I see them running as an app on a phone.
It would make sense to me that Sonar would slide towards the engineering side of things, rather than towards the consumer toy side.
Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
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NorthernElite
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 12:38:31
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munmun
Being tethered to windows only is not a winning strategy for the future.
Which certainly leads to an important point; there is surely a big gap in the market for a custom made OS purely designed for Multi-media purposes that can be used as the bedrock on which to build a DAW platform (amongst other purposes). An OS without all of the superfluous bloat-ware that we've become accustomed to. I don't need my DAW to be able to send email, take pictures and turn my wife into a Zombie (too late for that!) or track my location by triangulating my GPS coordinates. I don't need my DAW to pump out a live face-book feed to alert all my friends and family I've created a new track in cakewalk. I simply need a slimmed down, powerful, fast and efficient OS to sit under my specialised Desktop Apps and make them whizz along at lightning speed with super-low latency. I realise that the amount of people with these requirements are probably not considered mainstream, but there's a large populous of Desktop users who would jump aboard that particular ship, without doubt! Hang on; time-out... ...wouldn't Linux just about fit the mould here? All it would take is some organisation and commitment from the 'Big' software houses. I'd hazard a guess that Microsoft would probably reassess their product road map if this were to become a reality. Until such an OS exists, I'll probably just pop out to the store and pick up a multi-touch monitor.
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VariousArtist
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 13:11:34
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When I sit at my tablet, as I am doing now, it seems natural to me to be able to perform tasks in a full-screen app mode. Or, as Microsoft would put it, in modern mode. The device lends itself well to that. But when I am in front of a giant screen I often want to take advantage of that screen real estate and have multiple windows open. And even if I run just one program (say Microsoft Word) I don't want it to fill that large screen and cause whiplash from trying to read across the page. The trouble with the modern/metro mode is that it makes poor use of my large screen environment for many common tasks. Of course, with Sonar I may only want one window open, but for many other situations there is a reason why it's called WindowS and this is where I struggle with Microsoft's thinking. And why I never, ever run a modern/metro app on my desktop PC, even if I want to. By coincidence I came across this today, by the guys who brought back the start menu. I used that not because I missed the start button but rather because I liked the way the place the new start menu in a more "windowed-style" approach -- maybe I'll get this too: http://www.stardock.com/products/modernmix/index.asp?playdemovideo=1&utm_source=StardockSoftware&utm_medium=email&utm_term=03272013&utm_content=HEADERGFX&utm_campaign=Modern%2BMix%2BGA%2BAnnouncement
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NorthernElite
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 13:23:09
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VariousArtist
in a more "windowed-style" approach
Haha brilliant! who would ever have thought that we would have made such significant progress in the OS world, that 3rd party programmers would be earning a living from coding apps that help to make the new Windows, actually run apps in windows....lol I think this is genuinely useful, don't get me wrong - but it's the fact that there's a need for it that makes me spit my coffee all over my keyboard. laugh? I nearly cried!
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chuckebaby
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 13:47:42
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I also think users have spoken loud and clear and Microsoft has no other choice but to listen, people love their start button and people love the desktop, no matter how many handheld ,portable devices, we always go back to the laptop,desktop, we are not a dying bread.
Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64 Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GBFocusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
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NorthernElite
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 13:55:06
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chuckebaby
I also think users have spoken loud and clear and Microsoft has no other choice but to listen, people love their start button and people love the desktop, no matter how many handheld ,portable devices, we always go back to the laptop,desktop, we are not a dying bread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvp37o1jZUo
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chuckebaby
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 13:58:41
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munmun
Microsoft is going nowhere. The company is doomed. They can now only milk their declining desktop business. Even that isn't going so well. Windows 8 now accounts for 1.5% of all windows installations since launch. That makes it the slowest launch ever for them. People just don't need to upgrade. Also where a home may have had multiple desktops and laptops once upon a time, that is being changed by the emergence of mobile. A market that microsoft famously missed.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamhartung/2013/01/20/sell-microsoft-now-game-over-ballmer-loses/
This article made some waves when it appeared.
So where is the future? The cloud? Apps? Mobile? Desktop will probably be reduced to a niche market for specialized applications. There is no rule book that says that music must ideally be made on a desktop.
And what does that mean for us? My hunch is that 5-10 years hence few of us will be on windows as we migrate to other hardware platforms. So what does that mean for Sonar? Don't know. But if I was Cakewalk I would be creatively thinking through future servicing models for their user base.
sold 60 million copy's as of Jan 2013, I really don't consider that failing or doomed. http://www.zdnet.com/microsoft-60-million-windows-8-licenses-sold-to-date-7000009549/ in fact Microsoft is saying it has been selling at the same rate windows 7 did. and I heard the same things when windows 7 was released. another thing to consider is the alarming rate at which hackers have learned to forge windows, losing Microsoft millions of dollars. being a PC builder a lot of my customers will want there OS re-installed, they hit the roof or pretend to hit the roof when I tell them I will not re-install an illegal OS I tell them flat out, you need your OEM, if you don't have it, here's your computer with out an OS or a 30 day and its now in your hands. I get a lot of customers that don't understand, they say "just re-install it with the same serial that was in it. I try and explain, I will not produce and illegal install of windows. I see it at least 25 % of time. now that is a scary thing you would be surprised the rate.
post edited by chuckebaby - 2013/03/28 14:04:56
Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64 Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GBFocusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
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VariousArtist
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 14:09:51
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NorthernElite
VariousArtist
in a more "windowed-style" approach
Haha brilliant! who would ever have thought that we would have made such significant progress in the OS world, that 3rd party programmers would be earning a living from coding apps that help to make the new Windows, actually run apps in windows....lol
I think this is genuinely useful, don't get me wrong - but it's the fact that there's a need for it that makes me spit my coffee all over my keyboard. laugh? I nearly cried!
You can almost envision the new Apple Ad: "Want to run metro in a window? There's an app for that"
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NorthernElite
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 14:21:49
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VariousArtist
You can almost envision the new Apple Ad: "Want to run metro in a window? There's an app for that"
Hehe, I know right? how about Microsoft just inject some honesty into this and change the name of the new OS to 'Tiles 98' or if you prefer 'I can't believe there's no windows, Windows edition'?...lol
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VariousArtist
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 14:35:59
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NorthernElite
VariousArtist
You can almost envision the new Apple Ad: "Want to run metro in a window? There's an app for that"
Hehe, I know right? how about Microsoft just inject some honesty into this and change the name of the new OS to 'Tiles 98' or if you prefer 'I can't believe there's no windows, Windows edition'?...lol
Yes, exactly. Don't get me wrong, I use Windows 8 for my home studio and like the way it performs -- not all the new features are bad. It just seems half-baked and I don't understand the rationale in forcing users to jump between modern and desktop modes (like trying to do things relating to Control Panel that are half over here and half over there). It's like their strange thinking in the old Windows Mobile which forced their desktop paradigms into that tiny screen. It was an awful experience, and they finally realized that a fresh new mobile OS was required (and it's pretty decent, although I had already jumped ship by then to the "i" device). Now they are doing the reverse and making the modern/metro UI the default rather than as an option which can run either in full-screen or window-mode. Exactly like Windows Media Center. Then again, Windows Media Center is hardly a hit. Like Zune. They have good ideas but manage to drop the ball somewhere. Silverlight. WPF. COM. etc.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 14:42:03
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There are a lot of people making music on iPads these days. You can tinker with your iPad... but you can't do a full-bore recording/mix with top-notch processing/mixing. Not to mention video editing (which makes audio loads look puny)... Doom and gloom for Windows??? I wouldn't bet on it. You're talking about a company with DEEP pockets... that has amazing market share... of machines that conduct most of the world's business. Love 'em or hate 'em... Microsoft will likely outlast all of us...
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 14:43:56
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It just seems half-baked and I don't understand the rationale FWIW, If you use a multi-touch monitor, you start to understand some of the design changes/decisions.
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VariousArtist
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 15:27:56
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Jim Roseberry
It just seems half-baked and I don't understand the rationale
FWIW, If you use a multi-touch monitor, you start to understand some of the design changes/decisions.
I do, and I have. In addition I tested out various configurations of hardware and software. And I have over two decades of software development experience across all major (and some minor) platforms. I respect the fact that people have varying needs and opinions on this matter. But I stand by my claim that this is quite a half-baked environment that I find surprising for a company that, arguably, leads the OS/Software world and stands on decades of experience with millions of users and very deep pockets. I think, and hope, that they fix the holes and provide a more consistent experience, regardless of which environment a user operates in. There was a time when it was important to ensure that users could interact with the screen with or without a mouse or keyboard, etc. I love touch, but even that has been inconsistently implemented by Microsoft.
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NorthernElite
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 17:03:45
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Jim Roseberry
FWIW, If you use a multi-touch monitor, you start to understand some of the design changes/decisions.
Yeah, I could buy that, I enjoy the touch experience on my tablets and in that form factor and OS the touch user experience is great. One of my issues is (and I haven't tried it yet), I'm just not sure I can get mentally tuned into using touch on my desktop - for a start my screen is currently outwith comfortable arm length and the way I have my workspace setup MIDI control keyboard, external effects units, Audio interface, mixing desk etc., it would require some major redesign in order for it to be ergonomic and workable. Also how much do these new touch screens cost, I'll hop onto Amazon later and check it out. But never say never right. I'd actually like to get a demo of a good multi-touch monitor with windows 8 and see if it makes me feel any better about the GUI, but I just love the look and feel of Aero so much...call me old fashioned....lol I do think that either way you slice it, Win 8 needs some serious spit and polish to make it a more enjoyable and cohesive user experience - given the info in this thread, it's clear there is division on this viewpoint and that's cool, different strokes for different folks. Let's hope Microsoft is absorbing all of the user feedback like a big sponge and the next release will blow our socks off. Although the word on the street is that the next release of Windows will mandate the use of a Virtual Reality Helmet using only mind control. Touch control is so 'last year'! :-)
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ohgrant
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Re:Windows OS - The Future without a Desktop?
2013/03/28 18:43:28
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I think a future without a desktop is almost certain. I also believe by that time most DAW users will no longer care. Might be a crazy notion, but I think in the near future you are going to see machines more like X-box/PS3 but specialized for DAW use built in interface and custom OS designed mainly on pro audio. With tons of processing power and software bundles most of us will not be able to resist. That's how it played out in the PC/Platform gaming world. That how I see it playing out with pro audio. JMO
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