VariousArtist
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X2a: Lane Pain -- Comping issues (weird delete/ move)
UPDATE: I've added a video to demonstrate the issue http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwsfmG2On6k Original Message: I installed the X2a patch and instantly welcomed the updates and fixes that I saw, including the supported touch gestures. Then I sat down to do a brand new project, starting with one of the templates for 16 tracks with the console emulator, and as I began to record a few takes I came upon some serious issues with lanes. I mean beyond the point of usable and even scary... Here are the steps: - Launch Sonar X2a - Create new project using 16-track console template - Import WAV file of a song I had sketched out - Armed one track for recording - Began recording takes, with frequent stops and restarts of the song between takes - Cloned track to copy FX setup (but no clips or events were cloned) - Recorded a few more takes, muting some and leaving others untouched This is where the issues began: - I noticed a couple of take lanes had two overlapping clips whereas other lanes were empty - I moved overlapping clips to the empty lanes but they jumped to other lanes, much further away from the target - I removed some takes by hitting the small X delete button, but sometimes a different take would be deleted - The more I tried to move, edit, comp...the more issues I ran into Now I have to believe that other people are not seeing these issues so easily and frequently as I did, but then again I'm working on a brand new project in a fairly clean environment on a dedicated DAW running Sonar X2a (x64) on Windows 8. It's a recently built PC with an Intel i7 CPU and 16GB RAM, and my sound card is a Roland QuadCapture (not that this should really make any difference). I'm in a bit of a quandary here. I was prepared to just move on exclusively with X2a, having spent much of my last album jumping between X1 and 8.5 just because I needed to overcome new workflow issues that I found wanting in X1 (for me). But with new recordings as well as existing projects I decided to stick with X2a, and now I am stuck at the first hurdle. I'm hoping it's just an anomaly, but either way I think I'll be contacting Cakewalk and sending them this new project so they can look into it. It would just be interesting to know if anyone else has seen anything like this...
post edited by VariousArtist - 2012/12/30 19:59:24
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VariousArtist
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/28 18:12:37
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Keni
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/28 20:22:10
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Hi Peter...
First let me compliment you on the subject line... I wish I thought of that! ;-)
Sorry you're having such a bad time.... I don't like the Take Lanes and have many issues with them, but I haven't experienced anything like what you're talking about (yet?) in either X2 or X2a...
In X2, I was getting soloed extra empty lanes, but that seems gone...
I do a lot of cloning in the manner you report... I'll try some again looking for any hint of this. Maybe I haven't tried since X2a? I'm pretty sure I did...
Keni
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VariousArtist
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/30 20:08:06
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Keni
Hi Peter...
First let me compliment you on the subject line... I wish I thought of that! ;-)
Sorry you're having such a bad time.... I don't like the Take Lanes and have many issues with them, but I haven't experienced anything like what you're talking about (yet?) in either X2 or X2a...
In X2, I was getting soloed extra empty lanes, but that seems gone...
I do a lot of cloning in the manner you report... I'll try some again looking for any hint of this. Maybe I haven't tried since X2a? I'm pretty sure I did...
Keni
Thanks Keni, I notice you share some of the pain with regards to a preference for the old workflow of using layers versus lanes. But as you can tell that this time around there are some bugs with lanes for which there are no practical workarounds. Okay, I went into X1 to try and resolve some of the issues by resorting to using the old style of editing layers, but it's not practical because of all the warnings that occur when opening the project due to plugins that are only licensed for X2. This means repeatedly clicking "OK" to remove the warning -- over 50 times in this particular small project (because I used the Console Emulator template). Anyway, I have put together a video to demonstrate the issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwsfmG2On6k Btw, although you appreciated the title of the thread, I changed it. My goal was to draw attention to the issue to see if we could identify some common cause and get it fixed, and I realized later that my off-the-cuff title might not be conducive to that goal. I love Sonar and have done many great projects with it. But I really need to get the lanes issue I'm experiencing fixed. Ultimately though I want layers back -- for me, it is a far superior workflow for the kinds of editing and comping I do, and there was nothing on the market that could touch it.
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Keni
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/30 23:26:04
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VariousArtist
Keni
Hi Peter...
First let me compliment you on the subject line... I wish I thought of that! ;-)
Sorry you're having such a bad time.... I don't like the Take Lanes and have many issues with them, but I haven't experienced anything like what you're talking about (yet?) in either X2 or X2a...
In X2, I was getting soloed extra empty lanes, but that seems gone...
I do a lot of cloning in the manner you report... I'll try some again looking for any hint of this. Maybe I haven't tried since X2a? I'm pretty sure I did...
Keni
Thanks Keni, I notice you share some of the pain with regards to a preference for the old workflow of using layers versus lanes. But as you can tell that this time around there are some bugs with lanes for which there are no practical workarounds. Okay, I went into X1 to try and resolve some of the issues by resorting to using the old style of editing layers, but it's not practical because of all the warnings that occur when opening the project due to plugins that are only licensed for X2. This means repeatedly clicking "OK" to remove the warning -- over 50 times in this particular small project (because I used the Console Emulator template).
Anyway, I have put together a video to demonstrate the issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwsfmG2On6k
Btw, although you appreciated the title of the thread, I changed it. My goal was to draw attention to the issue to see if we could identify some common cause and get it fixed, and I realized later that my off-the-cuff title might not be conducive to that goal. I love Sonar and have done many great projects with it. But I really need to get the lanes issue I'm experiencing fixed. Ultimately though I want layers back -- for me, it is a far superior workflow for the kinds of editing and comping I do, and there was nothing on the market that could touch it.
Hi Peter... Yes... We share the same opinion here for sure. I have exactly the same thoughts and experiences regarding the use of Lanes vs. Layers and trying to go back to X1 to work around it... it's so much trouble either way that I feel sniffled... I too have done many great projects with Sonar over the years... and there are many features I do like about X1/X2.... Lanes is most definitely NOT one of them and is a severe step backwards for me... So many issues that it makes the bugs with Layers appear bug free! ;-) Now not even Sonar can touch Sonar 8.5.3! ;-) Happy New Year! Keni
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noynekker
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 01:29:18
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Hi Peter, Keni . . . I've just finished a session of recording multiple vocal takes using lanes, then comping, and had no problems. However, I'm not using the lanes function in the same way Peter describes. Whenever I had overlapping clips, I slip edited them. I never moved or copied takes to other lanes, I just split the clips, and muted the clips I didn't want to hear. I never deleted any clips, just muted ones I didn't want to hear. Not suggesting your method is flawed, because lanes obviously have some troubles in X2a, but I was looking at the online Sonar manual about lanes, and I'm not sure you're supposed to move/drag clips from one lane to another. Seems like making "clip groups" is important to the comping process, as well as using the "isolate tool" to keep or reject certain takes. I'm hoping someone with more experience will have more insights to the use of the lanes/comping feature of Sonar X2
post edited by noynekker - 2012/12/31 02:29:52
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scook
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 01:57:41
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noynekker
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 02:31:30
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Yes scook . . . thanks, this video helps to clarify the process.
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Saxon1066
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 03:15:22
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noynekker
I was looking at the online Sonar manual about lanes, and I'm not sure you're supposed to move/drag clips from one lane to another.
You could be right, and that is LAME. Layers allowed us to do that, so we could comp clips from multiple tracks in one track. Lanes mean a loss of functionality.
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Tom Riggs
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 04:07:13
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Maybe I'm missing something but I just created a new project in x2a, created one audio track and recorded a few takes. This created lanes.
Then I opened the lanes and split clips. Created a new lane and copied the clip into it. Then copied the clip to an existing lane. I did nothing special just used the smart tool and click and drag. I also tried the copy and paste that indeed does not allow you to past to a different take lane.
But if you split on the snap settings at least initially then you can drag the clip to any lane you wish even if they overlap then slip edit if you wish.
I do not generaly do this I follow a work flow close to the one in the lane video for comping.
Even so I generally clone the track then mute and archive one copy and save the project before any comping. Just paranoid I guess.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 04:40:29
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If fading is a preferred comping method that is also easy. - Split clips at desired points.
- Either Mute/delete clips not needed or select those that are.
- Select "Fade clips" from the clips menu, set your preferences and click okay.
If you click on "Only show when pressing shift" the dialogue won't open every time and use existing settings instead. Each to their own but there's no need to drag clips around the lanes, although of course you can if you wish.
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Saxon1066
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 05:07:33
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Tom Riggs
Even so I generally clone the track then mute and archive one copy and save the project before any comping. Just paranoid I guess.
A good policy! I do it too, but the pileup of archived clips seems to be what caused performance issues for me in X2a. The rewind to now time and undo/redo actions were sluggish. I didn't have that problem with brand new projects with only a few tracks, but with larger projects and many archived tracks/takes, I can't use X2a at the moment. I still have weirdness when copy/pasting clips into new take lanes for comping with X2, but performance issues in X2a. So I'm between Scylla and Charybdis.
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Tom Riggs
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 07:47:13
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@Saxon1066 are you certain the tracks are archived and not just hidden. If so I think You should report you findings as archived tracks are not supposed to be processed in any way. I suppose if you had a very large amount of them it could cause disk issues.
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Keni
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 12:49:36
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Tho I have a definite "extreme" dislike for the Lanes, if they are not supposed to allow movement from one to another it would be even worse than I'm currently experiencing... that's one problem I haven't had with the Lanes...
I can copy or move clips from lanes on the same track or others....
I prefer working where I typically split/mute portions of takes until I finish with a song-length composite... Then I drag-copy the pieces to a cloned empty track... Finally archiving the original track and add a "archived" tag to the track name before hiding...
This way I now have a single track/lane for the part and an archive of all the original takes (hidden)
If it's a vocal track and I use V-vocal or such, I will often (tho not always) Bounce the track to another and archive/hide the intermediate track so my final track has no v-vocal or such...
But I also vary this approach when I feel the need/desire... there are more variations than I can shake a stick at! ;-)
For me Lanes aren't really much different than layers were other than their' screen appearance and the extra functions we had (even tho buggy)... But the screen real estate translates into constant adjusting/re-arranging of the screen in order to see what I need... Screen real estate has become an increasing difficulty since the release of X1 with larger buttons, more space between buttons and different grouping. I almost nver need the automation buttons read/write but I do need the archive button constantly. In 8.5.3, I could see the archive button and allow the read/write to remain off screen.... etc.... The list goes on....
So while working at "curing" the "screen clutter" some complained of in earlier Sonar releases, now we have the opposite... Lots of space wasted and lots of extra work created to manage that space all the time....
I now spend far more time adjusting the display in Sonar than ever before and it takes away from the music mind/work....
I sincerely hope that The Bakers are working at some solutions to these things even more than fixing the bugs that they still carry as it's made working with Sonar a constant repetitive drudgery (for me) in my work methods.... and yes, I have adopted some new methods in an attempt to use Sonar the way they seem to want to force us to work now which also makes my work slower and more tedious but at least I am working still...
I do love some of X's improvements but it seems most of them are related to the plugins in the PC which I could have easily received as dx/vst plugins and remained in 8.5.3 and been much happier...
Sorry.... I'm ranting again.... But I just did a lot of vocal tracks and compositing and I'm still shaking from the aggravation I felt while doing it...
Keni
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Beepster
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 12:53:11
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VariousArtist
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 12:59:25
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Beepster
Vid didn't work for me.
Sorry about that Beepster, I had the video set to "private" instead of "public", when what I really meant to set it to was "unlisted". Please try it again....
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 13:08:09
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So while working at "curing" the "screen clutter" some complained of in earlier Sonar releases, now we have the opposite... Lots of space wasted and lots of extra work created to manage that space all the time....
I now spend far more time adjusting the display in Sonar than ever before and it takes away from the music mind/work....
That's where screensets become really useful, setup the views you want as screensets and switch between them. Changes are really quick that way. I can see why you are frustrated if you stay on one screenset and adjust that as needed. That'd send me crazy too.
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Beepster
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 13:18:04
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Yup, working now. This is very similar to the issue I was having while editing. I wasn't sure until I saw that vid though. Essentially trying to select or move clips around was selecting multiple clips and it was causing some real problems. However it wasn't within lanes it was over multiple tracks but I wasn't working the same way you are so if I did I'd imagine I'd have the same issue. What I've been doing to avoid this is locking the Pos/Data in the Inspector on every single track not being edited and then making my cuts, moves, slices, etc on the unlocked track and it has been working. It is however a huge pain in the butt.
All I can think of to solve this on the Lanes level of editing is to actually lock the individual Clips. I think they can be isolated for locking in this manner by Right Clicking or in the Inspector. Not sure though. I posted a thread asking the Bakers to take a look but they didn't stop in. Once I figured out my workaround I didn't bother emailing support because I've been busy. I was hoping the patch would fix it but it does not seem to be mentioned and I am not installing the patch due to all the complaints about it on here.
So yeah... I think you're gonna have to just lock stuff until they fix it. Thanks for confirming. If more of us send in bug reports maybe it'll get fix. It quite literally makes editing impossible without constantly locking and unlocking the tracks/clips.
Cheers.
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Beepster
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 13:26:45
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Oh and another workaround at least for the extra selections is to make your selection then use the Deselect key binding to remove the clips/tracks that you don't want selected. Ctrl + Click on the unwanted track I believe. I have tested this thoroughly though as I've just been using the Inspector to lock the tracks. It's easier since in a big project it's hard to scroll through everything to figure out everywhere that has been randomly selected.
Major MAJOR problem. Not sure why it's not being reported more often.
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VariousArtist
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 13:36:05
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Beepster
Yup, working now. This is very similar to the issue I was having while editing. I wasn't sure until I saw that vid though. Essentially trying to select or move clips around was selecting multiple clips and it was causing some real problems. However it wasn't within lanes it was over multiple tracks but I wasn't working the same way you are so if I did I'd imagine I'd have the same issue. What I've been doing to avoid this is locking the Pos/Data in the Inspector on every single track not being edited and then making my cuts, moves, slices, etc on the unlocked track and it has been working. It is however a huge pain in the butt.
All I can think of to solve this on the Lanes level of editing is to actually lock the individual Clips. I think they can be isolated for locking in this manner by Right Clicking or in the Inspector. Not sure though. I posted a thread asking the Bakers to take a look but they didn't stop in. Once I figured out my workaround I didn't bother emailing support because I've been busy. I was hoping the patch would fix it but it does not seem to be mentioned and I am not installing the patch due to all the complaints about it on here.
So yeah... I think you're gonna have to just lock stuff until they fix it. Thanks for confirming. If more of us send in bug reports maybe it'll get fix. It quite literally makes editing impossible without constantly locking and unlocking the tracks/clips.
Cheers.
Thanks Beepster, but the REAL problem for me was less about moving clips and more about deleting unwanted takes. What I think is occurring is that some of the lanes get assigned the same internal "index", so that anything you do to one lane might actually affect a completely different lane. If you look at the video, you can clearly see that selecting one lane highlights a completely different lane. Check the link below which should be positioned at the appropriate location in the video (about a minute in): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwsfmG2On6k&feature=player_detailpage#t=64s See how selecting one lane also causes a select of another. So while I delete one of these lanes because I don't want the take or it is empty, then the other one gets selected and deleted too! This sample project in the video is actually a scaled down version of one that had many more tracks, lanes and stuff going on. So while I was deleting takes I came to find out that I was losing much more than I intended. Luckily I'm forever making backups and updating my own version number in the project name that I was able to recover what I was losing. Locking the lanes won't change this behavior, although I appreciate the suggestion.
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Beepster
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 13:44:32
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That's exactly what was happening to me except it was across tracks. I'd highlight or select something and other stuff got selected too. I don't recall it happening in lanes though but when I first noticed it I was working on a MIDI track and started locking everything down immediately so I wasn't actually messing with lanes too much. You know what... come to think of it it may have been effecting the very few lanes in the MIDI track. I have not had it happen since though.
This only started happening with X2 (build 306). X1 was fine.
I'm curious... do you happen to use a mouse that requires a driver? I'm using a Kensington Expert Mouse (trackball) and I'm taking a wild guess that it might be a driver issue considering more people aren't talking about this.
Just a thought.
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Beepster
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 13:46:53
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And the new lanes are probably being created because it's selecting the unwanted lanes and then when you move them it forces a new lane.
I could be completely misinterpreting it but really the behavior in your vid is very very similar to what was happening to me. Cheers.
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VariousArtist
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 13:51:02
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Beepster
That's exactly what was happening to me except it was across tracks. I'd highlight or select something and other stuff got selected too. I don't recall it happening in lanes though but when I first noticed it I was working on a MIDI track and started locking everything down immediately so I wasn't actually messing with lanes too much. You know what... come to think of it it may have been effecting the very few lanes in the MIDI track. I have not had it happen since though.
This only started happening with X2 (build 306). X1 was fine.
I'm curious... do you happen to use a mouse that requires a driver? I'm using a Kensington Expert Mouse (trackball) and I'm taking a wild guess that it might be a driver issue considering more people aren't talking about this.
Just a thought.
It's always worth entertaining any suggestion as you never know what edge-cases we are running into, but although I need a driver for my Logitech mouse I don't think that's the issue. If I change the screen resolution or resize the tracks and lanes, the selections I make are consistently affecting the exact same tracks and lanes, rather than anything random. It appeared to be random when I first encountered the issue, but since then I've been able to distill this down to repeatable, deterministic steps and obtain the same result with the same projects. I'm almost certain that my conclusion that there's some internal index issues is correct. Each take lane needs an internal index that is unique so that the program knows how to pass a reference to it to various functions. But if an internal index is duplicated, then it would exactly explain the behavior I am seeing. I realize that there can be many causes for the same symptom, but this one fits the crime too perfectly. Hopefully with the project I sent to Cakewalk, along with my video, there should be enough for a "quick fix" to this. I hope so, because I want to dive into X2a more but I'm a little reticent at the moment
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Beepster
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 13:58:43
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After Google giving me a real hard time I managed to dig up my original thread on this. http://forum.cakewalk.com...;m=2702185&mpage=1 A few others had similar problems. If this is different then what you are talking about my apologies.
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Beepster
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 14:03:09
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Re-reading the thread it seems I was actually working with lanes. Apparently my memory is going wonky with age.
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VariousArtist
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 14:05:21
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Beepster
After Google giving me a real hard time I managed to dig up my original thread on this.
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?&m=2702185&mpage=1
A few others had similar problems.
If this is different then what you are talking about my apologies.
Sounds VERY similar to my issue. However, I still get the same problems even after locking clips (position, data) and even using the Isolate Clip tool. Maybe there is still some underlying issue that is the same for both cases though, so I am going to cross-reference my thread in your original post so that maybe we can provide a more comprehensive picture for Cake....
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Beepster
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 14:09:12
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Sounds VERY similar to my issue. However, I still get the same problems even after locking clips (position, data) and even using the Isolate Clip tool. Maybe there is still some underlying issue that is the same for both cases though, so I am going to cross-reference my thread in your original post so that maybe we can provide a more comprehensive picture for Cake.... I'm in. Let me know any info you need. You seem to have a better understanding of things than I so I'll let you drive. Cheers and thanks. I'd really like to get this solved.
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Jonbouy
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2012/12/31 16:54:23
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I've seen very similar behaviour to this going right back to Sonar 7, well before take lanes, wrong clips being selected and random movements on tracks when cloning or moving stuff and random clip lengths when making splits. IIRC messing with some of the different Editing options 'Blend Old With New' etc, mitigated some of the problems but there's definitely been gremlins underlying in this area for some time. I just have 'Replace old with New' set now which seems trouble free and leave it a that. Try that see if it makes a difference. It might help narrow down where the problem lies if it only happens under certain circumstances. It might also be helpful being as you've posted a video for other X2 users to try and replicate the problem and help identify the causes and ultimately produce a fix, rather than stating everything is fine at their end and that there are workarounds. Thanks to the vid we can ALL see there ARE problems.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/12/31 17:05:02
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Keni
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2013/01/02 11:53:03
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FastBikerBoy
So while working at "curing" the "screen clutter" some complained of in earlier Sonar releases, now we have the opposite... Lots of space wasted and lots of extra work created to manage that space all the time....
I now spend far more time adjusting the display in Sonar than ever before and it takes away from the music mind/work....
That's where screensets become really useful, setup the views you want as screensets and switch between them. Changes are really quick that way.
I can see why you are frustrated if you stay on one screenset and adjust that as needed. That'd send me crazy too.
Hi Karl... No, I use screensets as well... The problem isn't a matter of which windows open where/when... It's a matter of how much data can I see on screen at one time. I'm used to seeing (essentially) my whole project while I work and with X this has become increasingly difficult. It was bad in X1, but in X2 it's become almost impossible with the way Lanes use screen space... Happy New Year! Keni
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Keni
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Re:Nightmare on Lane Street ... X2a
2013/01/02 11:58:55
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Beepster
That's exactly what was happening to me except it was across tracks. I'd highlight or select something and other stuff got selected too. I don't recall it happening in lanes though but when I first noticed it I was working on a MIDI track and started locking everything down immediately so I wasn't actually messing with lanes too much. You know what... come to think of it it may have been effecting the very few lanes in the MIDI track. I have not had it happen since though.
This only started happening with X2 (build 306). X1 was fine.
I'm curious... do you happen to use a mouse that requires a driver? I'm using a Kensington Expert Mouse (trackball) and I'm taking a wild guess that it might be a driver issue considering more people aren't talking about this.
Just a thought.
Hi Beepster... Yup... I've been experiencing this too... but until I heard you guys talking about it I just kept thinking I must have accidentally left something selected and used a ctl-click (accidentally) when selecting what I thought was the only clip being selected... I had not seen the rhyme or reason behind what was going on... Happy New Year! Keni
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