soundsubs
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X2's horrible new automation
argh. I have been "mixing" a song of mine for the last several days in X2a. I had not noticed this before today. Its always worked fine for me way back to v6 or more. I have 10 audio tracks, with individual envelopes on each for volume automation (and that's all) im seeing that when I hit play, the volume+ indicators in the track section aren't moving. they used to move up/down with respect to where the volume automation envelopes were. but they aren't moving. they are just sitting there. I can see/hear that the volume of the tracks is changing, but the marker on the left isn't moving. annoying. even further, im finding that some of my envelopes aren't changing the volume some of the time, with no respect to where the track is. anyone else notice this? how do upgrades keep breaking basic functionality like this??
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scotteh
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/03 16:22:37
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Sorry this wont be much help but I had that problem once too, I think in X1 or v.7. It wasn't from an upgrade though. I was typing a track name and looking down at the keyboard. When I looked up it saw that the cursor had for some reason jumped out of that field, so every letter I typed was a key command. I didn't see any changes at first and did a bunch of work before I noticed. (rant: I REALLY dislike that the cursor leaves the selected track name field without hitting enter or clicking somewhere. When you are using the arrow keys to move the cursor back to the first letter it is very easy to go past it and suddenly you're out of the field! Then you have to click back in there again!) Well, a LOT of things were changed!! And all the envelopes got disconnected from the controls just like you are describing. I couldn't find any help for that strange problem and was never able to salvage that file. I think I ended up selecting all audio clips, copying and pasting them all into a new project. Something like that. So I would also like to know the answer to this! Scott
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brconflict
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/03 16:41:16
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If you're referring to the faders, when doing Volume Automation, the volume faders definitely should move. You might double-check to see that the Automation is for the Whole Track vs. a Take Lane. That could make a difference. Any envelopes created for a Take Lane may not be reflected in the Track's fader. I'm not in front of my DAW, so I can't validate if you can even do Volume Automation on a Take Lane.
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Guitarpima
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/03 17:21:45
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I see this once and a while. I think it's mostly because I forget the automation is there and make an adjustment. Usually a restart sorts it out. It may be a pain but try copying the envelope, paste it in another track, delete the original and paste it back. It seems crazy but It may work.
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don4777
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/03 18:53:08
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soundsubs argh. I have been "mixing" a song of mine for the last several days in X2a. I had not noticed this before today. Its always worked fine for me way back to v6 or more. I have 10 audio tracks, with individual envelopes on each for volume automation (and that's all) im seeing that when I hit play, the volume+ indicators in the track section aren't moving. they used to move up/down with respect to where the volume automation envelopes were. but they aren't moving. they are just sitting there. I can see/hear that the volume of the tracks is changing, but the marker on the left isn't moving. annoying. even further, im finding that some of my envelopes aren't changing the volume some of the time, with no respect to where the track is. anyone else notice this? how do upgrades keep breaking basic functionality like this?? You say "the volume+ indicators". Are you by any chance in Offset mode? You can enter/exit this mode with the hot key "O" - that's the LETTER Oh. In Offset mode the automation won't move the faders or pans, etc. They can be used to adjust the entire Automation envelope by whatever adjustment you make to the fader/pan.
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chuckebaby
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/03 19:06:54
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that's exactly whats happening, your in offset mode.
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jb101
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/03 19:12:00
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I'm with don4777 here, it sounds like you're in Offset mode. Press "O" on your "QWERTY" keyboard to exit Offset, and try it again. Do you use the hotkey for the inspector ("I"), or preferences ("P"), or loop ("L"), or mute clip ("K"), as it's very easy to hit "O" by mistake, if you do?
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brconflict
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/03 19:37:36
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Could be. Does anybody use Offset? I have yet to understand what it does, exactly. I assume it allows me to bring up a guitar after it has been automated, perhaps, but Cakewalk's description isn't clear to me.
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brconflict
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/03 19:49:34
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Ok, I just watched the video on that mode. I can see where others might find it useful.
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chuckebaby
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/03 20:00:30
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brconflict Could be. Does anybody use Offset? I have yet to understand what it does, exactly. I assume it allows me to bring up a guitar after it has been automated, perhaps, but Cakewalk's description isn't clear to me. it can be useful for something, the problem lays were its easily hit by hitting the "O" key on your keyboard. so one has no idea they're in offset mode, which really stinks, because you can drive yourself up a wall trying to figure it out. lol or even worse, embarrass yourself by posting here in the forum that sonars new automation features are junk when in reality it is an operator error :) lol
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jb101
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/03 20:30:58
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Or when you tell people to press the PDC button when they're using a latency inducing plug-in, or tell them that they're posting in the wrong forum when they're replying to a sticky in that forum. :) How embarrassing..
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stevec
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/03 20:55:30
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it can be useful for something, the problem lays were its easily hit by hitting the "O" key on your keyboard. so one has no idea they're in offset mode, which really stinks, because you can drive yourself up a wall trying to figure it out. lol I use Offset mode fairly often to make overall adjustments to controls that already have envelopes - I find it faster (and less tedious) than grabbing every node and moving the envelope. As far as knowing when you're in Offset mode, there's the "+" on track controls and an indicator in the Control Bar as well (new to X2 I think).
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Kev999
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/04 01:07:58
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I believe that Offset Mode would be more useful if: 1. Offset Mode could be set per track rather than for the whole project. 2. The Offset Mode flag is something much more prominent than the little "+" sign.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/04 02:15:12
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stevec it can be useful for something, the problem lays were its easily hit by hitting the "O" key on your keyboard. so one has no idea they're in offset mode, which really stinks, because you can drive yourself up a wall trying to figure it out. lol
I use Offset mode fairly often to make overall adjustments to controls that already have envelopes - I find it faster (and less tedious) than grabbing every node and moving the envelope. As far as knowing when you're in Offset mode, there's the "+" on track controls and an indicator in the Control Bar as well (new to X2 I think). Steve - click drag in the top third of the track with no nodes selected moves the whole envelope in one go. Having said that offset works too especially well with a control surface. I can't always be bothered to reach for a mouse.
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chuckebaby
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/04 03:04:24
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jb101 Or when you tell people to press the PDC button when they're using a latency inducing plug-in, or tell them that they're posting in the wrong forum when they're replying to a sticky in that forum. :) How embarrassing.. that's funny JB you pointing out my mistakes make you feel any better ? see my comment was being honest, that's got to be embarrassing, it had to do with this thread and the op your comment was malice, trying to point out my mistakes in order to make me feel humiliated and it had nothing to do with this thread or this issue. now why would you bring up my mistake from a month ago when it had nothing to do with the subject here ? ? ? that would be like for example: I went to another thread on this forum and mentioned that; the other day someone told a user he couldn't move midi notes to another layer, even going as far as telling him this was "normal behavior" and "he" even admitted he was wrong. see maybe the difference here is by me suggesting, turning off PDC might help, it was a suggestion. but "this other persons" mistake almost stopped a user in his tracks from searching for a solution. imagine if he took "that persons" advice? shall we analyze now which mistake is more embarrassing ? no we shouldn't. because we should be sticking to the subject of this thread don't you agree? I will now politely bow out of this thread but I hope you think about your comment, it had nothing to do with the subject and was a personal attempt to humiliate me. the only problem with that is you failed to realize you make mistakes too.
post edited by chuckebaby - 2013/04/04 08:32:02
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soundsubs
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/04 12:39:25
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wow. O was the trick, and yes, I was in offset mode. so my mistake! BUT STILL THIS SHOULD BE MORE OBVIOUS! don't get me wrong, im all for improvements, but not at the expense of every day usage models. something else I hate about this is that even though snap is set, zooming in shows that snap ISNT actually happening. drives me crazy, especially on drum tracks where I think im bringing up the levels but im actually ramping off a kick... I forgot to mention that I LIKE the idea that now when you move a point it shows you two numbers: where you are and where you've come from. like "-0.5dB +3.2dB"... first I've noted this.
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soundsubs
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/04 12:44:44
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Post Script: I cannot repeat enough how much I HATE HATE HATE that the envelopes rest on top of the clips and you have to change views to adjust/see them. just sayin.
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brconflict
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/04 12:51:27
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I could go on a rampage, myself. There's so much wrong with Take Lanes and Automation in X2 I nearly pop a vessel in my head thinking about all the gripes I have. I will say this, though, Gain automation, albeit can't be seen in Automation lanes I don't believe, has actually improved. 'Tis the only thing I automate now, since the rest of my experience there sort of dove straight into an 8th-grade bug-collection. Good ideas, but I'm quite unhappy with how Automation/Take Lanes were deployed.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/04 13:27:00
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soundsubs wow. O was the trick, and yes, I was in offset mode. so my mistake! BUT STILL THIS SHOULD BE MORE OBVIOUS! In X2 it is more obvious than ever before. There's an indicator in the mix module. All previous versions have only had the + sign beside volume and pan controls.
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John
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/04 13:30:42
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Its becoming a bit thick with the pronouncements about automation in X2. Judging by the threads on this subject all of the problems are due to user error. No one has found a true bug or inability yet we get threads saying how horrible automation is. In my view Sonar's automation has never been better or more user friendly. You have the ability to have it superimposed over the waveform or in its own lane and one can switch between views. Writing automation has never been simpler. Also editing it is now a simple thing to do. It seems to me that those that are complaining about it need to watch videos on it and read the manual about it before coming into the forum and making statements that are wrong. Even the the title of this thread should be changed because the OP had it wrong. For me it's never been better or more capable. The bugs that many reported in the past are gone. We now have 3 modes to use. I believe that people need to stop thinking they are using Sonar 8.5 and except that X2 is a very different version. Stop trying to do things as you did in that old version and I believe your time with X2 will be far better.
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jb101
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/04 13:40:48
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I'm with you there, John, 100%. It's not just with automation that we see threads crying "BUG" that turn out to be user errors or a misunderstanding of how features are meant to work. FWIW, I had a singer in this afternoon tracking vocals. We did many, many takes. Take lanes worked perfectly. I love the way I can make notes after each take in the lane itself - I no longer use take sheets. I've just started comping and love using the isolation tool - it makes comping so easy. Automating the vocal is so much easier for me with the automation lanes, too. Automation and take lanes make the whole process so much easier and quicker. I did have to study how it all worked - both reading and watching videos, but it was worth it.
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brconflict
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/04 14:10:39
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It all does take a lot of getting used to. Personally, I've only used X1 and X2. So, coming from an actual hardware desk and other DAW's, it was a very serious adjustment. I went through the manual (and refernce Guide) and have gone through both offerings of Groove3's X2 Explained and SWA from FastBikerBoy. I think Automation rocks in Sonar now, but it's quite clumsy from where I came, unless you have a good controller. There's not much that can be done about that, though (touch features will need a better GUI). It's still better than the rest, which was one of the things that brought me over to try it out. I have found several issues/bugs with Take Lanes, more so than Automation. Gain Automation, the one I find the most useful precludes the need for Offset, but doesn't get a "Lane". Lanes (when expanded) waste a lot of real-estate compared to Layers, and boy do I get LOST in them at times. Everyone has a valuable opinion, but I do hope opinions still matter. My gripes are mainly with a few cosmetic bugs and how Lanes could have been better. I think Cakewalk had a good start, but I sincerely hope they overhaul Take Lanes in the next version. I nearly blow a gasket every time I have to navigate through them. My opinion is Take Lanes blow for me. Nobody has been able to convince me otherwise yet.
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Lynn
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/04 14:11:13
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Amen to that! Kev999 I believe that Offset Mode would be more useful if: 1. Offset Mode could be set per track rather than for the whole project. 2. The Offset Mode flag is something much more prominent than the little "+" sign.
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Beepster
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/04 14:35:30
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This is something I've been meaning to ask you guys. I want to know how to make "volume" automation edits like the "trim" automation* in Pro Tools. If I'm reading this correctly this is what the Offset mode does or is there a specific envelope that can be used to achieve this? *trim automation in PT supposedly keeps your automation in perfect relation to the fader level.
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John
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/04 15:08:34
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brconflict It all does take a lot of getting used to. Personally, I've only used X1 and X2. So, coming from an actual hardware desk and other DAW's, it was a very serious adjustment. I went through the manual (and refernce Guide) and have gone through both offerings of Groove3's X2 Explained and SWA from FastBikerBoy. I think Automation rocks in Sonar now, but it's quite clumsy from where I came, unless you have a good controller. There's not much that can be done about that, though (touch features will need a better GUI). It's still better than the rest, which was one of the things that brought me over to try it out. I have found several issues/bugs with Take Lanes, more so than Automation. Gain Automation, the one I find the most useful precludes the need for Offset, but doesn't get a "Lane". Lanes (when expanded) waste a lot of real-estate compared to Layers, and boy do I get LOST in them at times. Everyone has a valuable opinion, but I do hope opinions still matter. My gripes are mainly with a few cosmetic bugs and how Lanes could have been better. I think Cakewalk had a good start, but I sincerely hope they overhaul Take Lanes in the next version. I nearly blow a gasket every time I have to navigate through them. My opinion is Take Lanes blow for me. Nobody has been able to convince me otherwise yet. In the past gain was called trim and really one should avoid changing it. It should be at unity. The only time adjustment to it should be done is when you have a track that is pushing a plugin too much causing it to clip. Other than that the fader is the normal thing to automate for volume changes. Take lanes are not automation and that was what I talked about. I have no opinion on them except that I would rather use them then layers. Its funny how some find take lanes troublesome and others love them. Clearly something is amiss here. Not with the lanes but with how they are being used. Though Sonar is versatile in how one can use it, it does have its own way of doing things just like any other DAW. A lot is talked about work flow which Sonar has and its up to us to use it in a way that doesn't go against that work flow. The developers have a design goal and philosophy that many of us find to our liking. Its why we use it. The changes that occurred with the release of X1 and now X2 were off-putting to some and embraced by others. Many of us saw where CW was going and were very pleased with the new direction. It think it would help this forum and the user base to find reason to applaud the new direction instead of finding fault with every post. I can see a need to improve things and I am all for that. Often times however its not being expressed well or a feature is not understood well enough yet a fault is found. I am very competent with Sonar. I have been for many years. None the less I am always learning things or refreshing my memory on things. Its a constant study. When I come here I often know the answer to a question for me but find it difficult to put it into words for the questioner. Again I believe that we never know it all and that we need to revisit ideas we learned in order to stay current and fresh. Believe me when I say this I get far more out of this forum than I put in. Its a place for us to learn. I have taken full advantage of that and will never stop doing that. I hope that we all view this place as a place to learn and exchange ideas. But not so much a place for finding fault. When a bug is identified its a valuable service that I fully support. When user error is the cause of the problem let us not also submit our own pet peeve to add nothing but confusion and misinformation. We all can be better in the quality of our posts. It is the only thing we really have control over. That is all I have to say. I hope its viewed in the spirit it was written.
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chuckebaby
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/04 16:16:06
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jb101 Or when you tell people to press the PDC button when they're using a latency inducing plug-in, or tell them that they're posting in the wrong forum when they're replying to a sticky in that forum. :) How embarrassing.. jb101 I'm with you there, John, 100%. Im sorry JB can you please remind me once again why you wrote this first statement ? was it because you were sticking up for the OP ?
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brconflict
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/04 16:44:23
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John, I agree with most of what you said, but have a few things to part with: 1) If there are no gripes, the company doesn't know where they can work to improve. Bad feedback is actually good feedback for a company that really wants to strive hard and satisfy. In this case, there are many people who have gripes, especially regarding Take Lanes. I gripe about them, but wouldn't so much if Layers were still an option. Giveth and Taketh. Cakewalk wouldn't know that people wanted to keep Layers, or would prefer more input to make Take Lanes better. I think we've done that. Lack of participation from the forum owners in the forum other than occasionally Noel leads me to believe I wasted my breath anyway. Sure, praise them for what's right. I do that sometimes, but it doesn't always provide the most valuable feedback Cakewalk needs. 2) Nobody should doubt another's experience with the DAW. Everybody learns, absolutely. I do, too. But the mere assumption that someone's gripe is largely based on ill-use of the software isn't a warm welcome mat. I do mis-use some features, such as Gain. The reason is, I want to adjust the source signal vs. the treated signal. I don't compress on the way in. I think Sonar X1/X2 are the best ones yet. Certainly better than Sonar 8 or older. However, my patience is tested nearly every session. And I'm naturally a calm and calculated guy. You have to be to be a Linux/Cisco Network Engineer during the day. I think many of you still have more patience with the DAW than I. Please don't take my response as a rebuttal, but rather, at least you can know that I understand and agree with much of what you said. The reality is, Sonar still makes me curse, and I'm still searching for hope.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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Paul P
Max Output Level: -48.5 dBFS
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/04 16:44:26
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John : "Though Sonar is versatile in how one can use it, it does have its own way of doing things just like any other DAW. A lot is talked about work flow which Sonar has and its up to us to use it in a way that doesn't go against that work flow. The developers have a design goal and philosophy that many of us find to our liking." This makes perfect sense. Is there a document somewhere that explains this workflow, in overview form ?
Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
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John
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/04 17:12:11
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Paul P John : "Though Sonar is versatile in how one can use it, it does have its own way of doing things just like any other DAW. A lot is talked about work flow which Sonar has and its up to us to use it in a way that doesn't go against that work flow. The developers have a design goal and philosophy that many of us find to our liking." This makes perfect sense. Is there a document somewhere that explains this workflow, in overview form ? Not in so many words. I don't think any software as such spells out its work flow. I think its something that comes to one over time and comfort level. Thats why in my opinion it can be harder for some to pick up a different DAW then it may be to one just starting out. I think motivation plays an important role here too. The closest one would have to a "work flow" explained text are the tutorials that come with every version of Sonar.
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John
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Re:X2's horrible new automation
2013/04/04 17:16:15
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brconflict John, I agree with most of what you said, but have a few things to part with: 1) If there are no gripes, the company doesn't know where they can work to improve. Bad feedback is actually good feedback for a company that really wants to strive hard and satisfy. In this case, there are many people who have gripes, especially regarding Take Lanes. I gripe about them, but wouldn't so much if Layers were still an option. Giveth and Taketh. Cakewalk wouldn't know that people wanted to keep Layers, or would prefer more input to make Take Lanes better. I think we've done that. Lack of participation from the forum owners in the forum other than occasionally Noel leads me to believe I wasted my breath anyway. Sure, praise them for what's right. I do that sometimes, but it doesn't always provide the most valuable feedback Cakewalk needs. 2) Nobody should doubt another's experience with the DAW. Everybody learns, absolutely. I do, too. But the mere assumption that someone's gripe is largely based on ill-use of the software isn't a warm welcome mat. I do mis-use some features, such as Gain. The reason is, I want to adjust the source signal vs. the treated signal. I don't compress on the way in. I think Sonar X1/X2 are the best ones yet. Certainly better than Sonar 8 or older. However, my patience is tested nearly every session. And I'm naturally a calm and calculated guy. You have to be to be a Linux/Cisco Network Engineer during the day. I think many of you still have more patience with the DAW than I. Please don't take my response as a rebuttal, but rather, at least you can know that I understand and agree with much of what you said. The reality is, Sonar still makes me curse, and I'm still searching for hope. Not at all. I think we are not really in opposition. I think we just come to it from a little different viewpoint. And hope is what keeps me thinking the Staff View will become useful too, one of these days. LOL
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