jrom
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Zero latency?
Hi all
Maybe wrong forum, anyway. I, as most of us I believe, have problems witH latency when recording overdubbing. Some of you have audio interfaces with "zero latency" features ( presonus & focusrite, and maybe others). My question is, how well does the said interfaces manage this problem? I'm asking because I have recently learned that you could have a setup including a mixer, in order to obtain a thrue zero latency setup. What are your thoughts about this?
If one of you would explain the minimum features for the mixer in order to obtain ZL I would very much appreciate it.
Thanks
Jan
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/16 11:32:06
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Great question.
Near zero latency can be achieved if you keep the monitor mix on the analog side of the analog to digital conversions.
If you use the dsp mixer on one of the common "zero latency" I/O boxes your minimum round trip latency will actually be about 2 milliseconds. The companies that describe that as "zero" latency are simply lying about the specs and they plan on nobody caring about either the 2ms or the misleading statements.
Some drivers allow small enough sample buffers that the throughput to and from the DAW is inconsequential and so 2ms is also the practical minimum you can expect for anything making a analog-digital-analog round trip.
As a comparison, if you are looking at the timing for a round trip through an analog monitor mix you can consider it would take an approximately 700 kilometer long audio cable to experience a 2 millisecond delay in the analog domain.
Even though analog would accurately described as near-zero latency you can see that it is closer to zero than the "zero latency" digital solutions by orders of magnitude.
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Anderton
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/16 12:39:39
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mike_mccue
If you use the dsp mixer on one of the common "zero latency" I/O boxes your minimum round trip latency will actually be about 2 milliseconds. The companies that describe that as "zero" latency are simply lying about the specs and they plan on nobody caring about either the 2ms or the misleading statements.
This point is key. If the zero latency option comes through analog means, i.e., the input signal is picked up from an analog mixer and sent to an analog output, only then do you have true zero latency. With DSP there is latency caused simply by going through A/D and D/A conversion which I believe is the issue to which Mike refers. The latency varies with sample rate. I think the figure he's quoting is for 44.1kHz sample rates. The term "zero-latency" originally referred to zero latency contributed by the computer itself. However that term has lost its original meaning over the years and now is a generic phrase meaning "you can monitor without having to go through the computer." However monitoring the input means you won't hear any of the effects contributed by the computer, like amp sim plug-in effects. This is why for guitar players, "re-amping" is popular. You can monitor yourself through a guitar amp with true zero latency (unless you're going through DSP in the amp or any effects), then modify the dry sound recorded in the computer at your leisure.
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John
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/16 12:46:24
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Lets put things into perspective here 2 ms is equivalent to 2 feet from a speaker. 10 ms is about 10 feet and so on.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/16 13:11:45
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John
Lets put things into perspective here 2 ms is equivalent to 2 feet from a speaker. 10 ms is about 10 feet and so on.
Yes, let's put things into perspective 2 feet is about 18" longer than the distance between a singers mouth and their ears. A 2 millisecond delay means that a vocal returned through a digitized headphone monitor mix takes 4 Times as long to get to the ears as many singers are used to. If it wasn't such a big deal, In Out box manufacturers would supply more accurate specs rather than gloss over the truth. ;-)
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CJaysMusic
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/16 13:12:16
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To not hear any audible latency when recording, all you need to do is get your round trip latency to under about 10mS, give or take.
To do this, all you need is:
1. A PC that can handle it, including your MOBO.
2. A hard drive that spins at or over 7200RPM and is dedicated for audio only.
3. A sound card that has good drivers written for it
Thats it. If you have all 3 of these, then you can achieve it
CJ
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joeb1cannoli
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/16 14:30:31
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Or from another perspective, for your band to play together to within 2 ms of accuracy, you would all need to sit on the drum throne together :)
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John
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/16 15:13:25
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mike_mccue
John
Lets put things into perspective here 2 ms is equivalent to 2 feet from a speaker. 10 ms is about 10 feet and so on.
Yes, let's put things into perspective 2 feet is about 18" longer than the distance between a singers mouth and their ears. A 2 millisecond delay means that a vocal returned through a digitized headphone monitor mix takes 4 Times as long to get to the ears as many singers are used to.
If it wasn't such a big deal, In Out box manufacturers would supply more accurate specs rather than gloss over the truth. ;-)
You're right. However when a singer is not using headphones, such in a live performance or for the centuries before electronic amplification and recording, singers and musicians in general all had latencies due to the fact they were separated from one another. One reason large orchestras developed conductors. We all deal with this issue and do so automatically. When some one speaks to us from afar 10 feet or more we don't hear latency yet its there. Their lips move and 10 ms later we hear the sound. Over the eons we have trained ourselves to ignore the delay and hear it as instant. Also physiologically we have internal latency as well. Some call it reaction time. It varies from person to person. Age also has an impact too. In most cases 10 ms or less is not a bothersome latency. Some find 14 ms to be acceptable.
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jrom
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/16 15:47:10
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Thanks. I understand that interfaces with an internal mixer (referred to as a dsp mixer) do the job fine, although it is not Zero latency. I was considering to buy either a new interface or a cheap mixer, so thanks for your input.
Jan
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John
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/16 16:03:36
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jrom
Thanks. I understand that interfaces with an internal mixer (referred to as a dsp mixer) do the job fine, although it is not Zero latency. I was considering to buy either a new interface or a cheap mixer, so thanks for your input.
Jan
I use a digital mixer. I have for many years.
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Splat 
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/16 22:47:00
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I used zero latency on my focusrite religiously for about 6 months. Then after that I couldn't be bothered. Nothing changed.
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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TomHelvey
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/16 23:35:43
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I always use an analog mixer for monitoring both my DAW and the audio being recorded so I've never noticed any latency doing overdubs. I can set my sample buffers to max if I need to and everything is still nicely synced.
I don't play or record through guitar amp plugins, even at the lowest sample buffer sizes the latency drives me nuts. I'd probably record a direct signal and reamp if I wanted to go that route.
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57Gregy
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/17 10:56:27
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Ditto. I have my Saffire's latency set to it's max, 40 ms, and never had a problem recording.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/17 18:38:45
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Splat
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/17 19:13:39
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I'm stable with 128ms on my Safire Pro 40 (firewire). I don't get any noticeable delay, if I did I would go back to the zero latency feature using Mix Control.
Good point about "not all systems". It's always useful for people to display their full specs in their signature.
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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brconflict
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/21 17:51:20
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I'd been begging MOTU to provide VST plug-in compatibility with their near-zero latency CueMix, but they didn't even bother responding to requests from me. So, my next thought was to ask CW for a Project Freeze function. What I've done is export a rough mix of the music to two tracks, then create a new project, import the Exported Audio, use the Echo function with a Compressor to track vocals with great latency control, then Export the vocal tracks back to the original project. That's a bit process/time consuming, but works for me. With that said, if I could emulate the mixdown like an Export Entire Mix, where Sonar would merely play the mix as if it were an Exported 2-track mix, disabling the ability to change anything with the original mix, I could essentially remove ALL latency in the project created by processing or plug-ins, etc. This works like Freezing tracks. If the track is frozen, it's processed down to just playing back the audio. However, freezing all the tracks still requires them play individually and through a buss. But if you could simply freeze the entire project, except the selected tracks (if any are selected), the project plays back as if from Windows Media Player. If all the processing is gone from the playback by freezing the whole project aside from new tracks you armed for recording vocals, in theory, you could get the lowest latency possible while adding a compressor to your tracking vocals using the echo button. Sound good? 
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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DeeringAmps
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/22 09:54:20
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Brian,
I'm confused!
Bounce a 2-track mix, archive all tracks (easy if everything is in folders) and track away.
BUT, trying to apply VST compression to an incoming track?
I don't think that works...
Tom
Tom Deering Tascam FW-1884 User Resources Page Firewire "Legacy" Tutorial, Service Manual, Schematic, and Service Bulletins Win10x64 StudioCat Pro Studio Coffee Lake 8086k 32gb RAM  RME UFX (Audio) Tascam FW-1884 (Control) in Win 10x64 Pro
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John
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/22 10:29:05
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DeeringAmps
Brian,
I'm confused!
Bounce a 2-track mix, archive all tracks (easy if everything is in folders) and track away.
BUT, trying to apply VST compression to an incoming track?
I don't think that works...
Tom
Right Tom. No it doesn't. Sonar can't apply effects to the streaming signal as it is being recorded. It only does it after it is sent to disk. One reason Sonar is non destructive. When one uses input echo the effect is applied to the output not the recorded audio.
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shmuelyosef
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/22 11:54:24
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57Gregy
Ditto. I have my Saffire's latency set to it's max, 40 ms, and never had a problem recording.
I'm a multi-instrumentalist, and my latency tolerance varies: saxophone - I can track in time at latencies up to 40mx like Gregy...no problem keyboards - I've been playing keys >>50 years, but I have trouble tracking in time with latencies above 10msec Drums or hand percussion - to get the swing and nuance of polyrhythms right and be able to track 'in the groove' I need pretty low latencies...<5msec. I have noticed over the years as well that the best drum circle sessions are the ones in very tight spaces where we are all crammed together. The emergent grooves are always tighter. That said, I saw a Yellowjackets concert last weekend where they were spread across a large stage, and the Ferrante (on piano) was probably 25-30 feet from Pastorius and Kennedy (bass and keys)...I did notice that they were fiddling with the monitors for the first half hour and had their own sound guy.
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shmuelyosef
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/22 12:00:21
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CakeAlexS
I'm stable with 128ms on my Safire Pro 40 (firewire). I don't get any noticeable delay, if I did I would go back to the zero latency feature using Mix Control.
Wow! I use a Saffire Pro 40 as well, and I can't do ANY live tracking of a MIDI synth at 128ms...fries my brain. Just a complete non-starter. Recorded audio with bounce-back from the Saffire is fine (i.e. hardware synth, miked instrument/voice). Just curious about latency...is anyone aware of measurements of latency in hardware keyboards? I would expect 2-3 msec, but curious if it has been measured. Sometimes I feel like playing the Grand Piano in my Nord with headphones is more 'live' than playing the Mason & Hamlin in my living room!
- Sonar Platinum 64-bit; Reaper; Ableton Live 9; Samplitude - PugetSystems Serenity Mini: WIN 10-PRO 64-bit; Intel Quad i7-4670 turbo to 3.8GHz; 16GB RAM; ASUS Gryphon Z89 - Antec P180 case. - Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 - DSI OB-6 (love child of a Prophet and an Oberheim) - NORD Electro 3HP - Roland XP-10 - Customized Fender-Rhodes Dyno Stage 73
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Anderton
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/22 14:14:12
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shmuelyosef
CakeAlexS
I'm stable with 128ms on my Safire Pro 40 (firewire). I don't get any noticeable delay, if I did I would go back to the zero latency feature using Mix Control.
Wow! I use a Saffire Pro 40 as well, and I can't do ANY live tracking of a MIDI synth at 128ms...fries my brain.
I think he means 128 sample buffers.
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brconflict
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/22 14:20:14
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DeeringAmps
Brian,
I'm confused!
Bounce a 2-track mix, archive all tracks (easy if everything is in folders) and track away.
BUT, trying to apply VST compression to an incoming track?
I don't think that works...
Tom
(EDIT) Yeah, if you use the Echo function, it doesn't apply the VST plug-in to the incoming signal. It just feels that way as the singer is tracking. However, if Sonar is processing ALL the VST's and tracks as they are in raw form, the Echo function is useless on even a modest project, even if the tracks are individually frozen. If you Export an Entire Mix, using the Export function, then Import the resulting mix into a new Project, you can playback the mixdown from the new project without having Sonar to use plug-ins or processing. Then, you can simply track new vocals using the Echo button, while adding VST effects to the new vocals on the fly with low latency in most cases. In this case, the original project is minimized or stored away. After you've tracked the vocals in the new project, you can take those clips and either Cut/Paste or export/import the new vocal tracks into the original project, where all your latency-causing plug-ins reside. The idea is that you can eliminate the latency caused by plug-ins so that you can record vocals in a new project with nearly zero latency (as close as possible, anyway) Does that help clarify? What I'd like to see is for Sonar to allow me to "freeze" and Entire Mix, much like freezing a single track, where Sonar processes the Entire Mix and plays it back is it would a frozen track.
post edited by brconflict - 2014/07/22 22:36:19
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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Blades
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/22 21:00:24
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Not sure how relevant this is now, but back in the early 2000s I got a Line6 TonePort device, one of the first with near-zero monitoring, I think. The nice thing at the time is that you could set your mix to something intolerable like 40ms and still play your guitar or record your vocals WITH effects via the Toneport software at something more like 2-5ms. So, when you had a really full-of-effects project, you could easily add in your effect-laden guitar stack or several layers of vocals with reverb with no problem.
It was REALLY helpful. Of course, now with more power in PCs, better driver stacks, etc, getting lower latencies later in a project is a lot more realistic than it was then. I still occasionally like to use this method when I think of it, rather than going through the freeze process or similar, which are a creativity killer for me. This is one of the reasons why the vDrums kit still trumps any sample librsary I've tried. The latency is VERY noticeably better for getting groove nuances and feel when playing even if technically the samples are better in a drum library. I just can't DEAL with any noticeable latency when tracking drums. It just wrecks it for me.
I think if you have an option to be able to get closer to zero (regardless of what it actually measures at) you should do whatever you can to get there. I'd rather record with no effects/completely dry (of course not reasonable with effected guitar sounds) than to have a little latency. It takes a little getting used to, but its easier to do and the end result is simply much tighter recordings.
There's my $.02, anyway.
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Splat
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/22 23:37:25
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Anderton
shmuelyosef
CakeAlexS
I'm stable with 128ms on my Safire Pro 40 (firewire). I don't get any noticeable delay, if I did I would go back to the zero latency feature using Mix Control.
Wow! I use a Saffire Pro 40 as well, and I can't do ANY live tracking of a MIDI synth at 128ms...fries my brain.
I think he means 128 sample buffers.
Indeed so. Senior moment sorry.
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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DeeringAmps
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/23 08:07:21
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Brian, got it!
HOWEVER, bounce the mix, archive the tracks, and we have the same end result; no?
I guess my way makes more sense, to ME, as this has been my workflow since the ProAudio days.
The introduction of folders made archiving tracks fast and easy.
Of course buy a StudioCat and it's all pretty much moot.
I think the RME is a bit more efficient than the FW1884 was/is as well.
Different strokes I guess.
T
Tom Deering Tascam FW-1884 User Resources Page Firewire "Legacy" Tutorial, Service Manual, Schematic, and Service Bulletins Win10x64 StudioCat Pro Studio Coffee Lake 8086k 32gb RAM RME UFX (Audio) Tascam FW-1884 (Control) in Win 10x64 Pro
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brconflict
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/23 10:28:56
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Can you bounce the entire mix with one Right-Click => Bounce? That's what I want. One Global Freeze button.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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Anderton
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/23 10:30:56
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Blades
Not sure how relevant this is now, but back in the early 2000s I got a Line6 TonePort device, one of the first with near-zero monitoring, I think. The nice thing at the time is that you could set your mix to something intolerable like 40ms and still play your guitar or record your vocals WITH effects via the Toneport software at something more like 2-5ms. So, when you had a really full-of-effects project, you could easily add in your effect-laden guitar stack or several layers of vocals with reverb with no problem.
Their Tone Direct Monitoring does have latency, but it's really low. It's interacting at very low levels in the operating system. The tradeoff is that if you record, you're recording the processed sound - not recording the dry sound and "re-amping" afterwards, as happens with conventional plug-ins. However, this means you have to commit to a sound in the recording process, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
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scook
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/23 10:46:48
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brconflict
Can you bounce the entire mix with one Right-Click => Bounce? That's what I want. One Global Freeze button.
Not much more than one click: Ctrl-ABounce to Track(s) and enterthen holding the Ctrl key archive one of the tracks It can be fewer keystrokes using AutoHotkey
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Anderton
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/23 11:00:41
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scook
brconflict
Can you bounce the entire mix with one Right-Click => Bounce? That's what I want. One Global Freeze button.
Not much more than one click:
Ctrl-A
Bounce to Track(s) and enter
then holding the Ctrl key archive one of the tracks
It can be fewer keystrokes using AutoHotkey
This is totally bizarre but I was writing the exact same thing at the exact same time. I posted it, saw your post, and then deleted mine. There seems to be some synchronization... I'll add this about "unfreezing": If the archived tracks are still selected: Ctrl-click on the premix's A button. This archives the premix and takes the other tracks out of the archived state. If the archived tracks are no longer selected: Ctrl-click on any of their A buttons, and they'll be taken out of the archived state and the premix will be archived. In either case whatever isn't selected will be archived, so you'll need to unarchive any overdubs you did to the premix.
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brconflict
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Re: Zero latency?
2014/07/23 17:56:12
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Thanks for the input. I think you guys understand what I can do to accomplish the task, and I'll give the latest a try, but I just wanted to politely re-iterate, a Global freeze is what I desire, which can freeze the entire project, then unfreeze. Just to simplify the whole thing and make it work easily every time. One snowflake button in the Control bar. I think that would be awesome.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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