Ham N Egz
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 11:02:26
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Beagle, depending upon your budget and back, are you looking for an original or a clone? do you want two manuals or a single 61 key manual? do you want other voices, like piano, rhodes, etc?
look at the new Hammond SK1, a Nord Electro 3, an older Hammond XK-1, even a Roland VK7 or 8.
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Beagle
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 11:10:26
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I'm not sure yet what I'm looking for, MM. I would love to have an XK-1 or VK-7, I have already been looking at them. but they're out of my budget for this right now (even the ones I found on craigslist), so I started thinking about a spinet I could leave at church. that's when I started seeing the Thomas' and Allens, Lowerys and Yamahas, some of them are pretty inexpensive ($300 or less) which is right in my ballpark for something I would leave at the church.
but I wanted to see if any of these were worth even that much or not. if the sound I would get from them are crap then they're not worth buying even at $200 to $300!
as far as what I want from them - I would kind of like to have 2 manuals, but it's not necessary. I don't think I really need other sounds on it, tho. I have a stage piano for my "piano" and I have an MM6 for my rhodes, wurlys, strings, etc.
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bitflipper
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 11:13:31
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Beagle, you'll be surprised at just how much Hammond lore is out there. I recommend the book "The Hammon Organ: Beauty in the B", published by Keyboard magazine. It's a good overview of the world of Hammonds and Leslies, including both history and technical stuff.
The Hammond organ was indeed inspired by pipe organs and was originally meant to be a replacement for pipe organs. Hammond assumed his primary market was churches, and reportedly wasn't too enthused about its application in jazz and popular music.
He especially hated the Leslie (mainly because he didn't invent it) and tried unsuccessfully to enforce a rule that forbade his dealers from also carrying Leslie speakers. It wasn't until after Hammond died that Leslies were manufactured by the same company that made Hammond organs.
The Leslie was also inspired by pipe organs. Don Leslie thought that what was missing from the Hammond sound was the spatial dimension of a pipe organ that you get because each note emanates from a different location in the room. He didn't manage to imitate that effect, but came up with something that sounded pretty cool anyway. It didn't hurt his business plan that Hammond speakers sounded like utter crap.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 11:20:19
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Hammond also held on to its spring reverb patents for as long as possible and that prevented guitar amp manufacturers from including that technology in their amps for nearly a decade after guitar amps had become popular. This is why tremolo and vibrato became prominent on board features. Their inclusion as a "spatial" effect preceded the commercial distribution of built in spring reverb.
best regards,
mike
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bitflipper
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 11:20:39
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Beagle, on a budget your best bet would be a real vintage Hammond product rather than a modern emulation, but not the highly-prized and highly-priced B-3 or C-3. A better value would be an M-10x, which features the same keyboard and tone wheel assembly in a smaller, less-impressive enclosure. These can be had for a few hundred dollars, less if they need work or have been dragged around by a rock band.
Even cheaper are the many excellent software emulations. However, even though they sound good none of them replicate the Hammond playing experience. A typical MIDI keyboard controller doesn't feel at all like a Hammond keyboard, although there is an Italian company that makes organ-style controllers. Expensive and hard to find in the U.S., though.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Beagle
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 11:21:33
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thanks for the book recommendation, dave!
I was hoping you'd chime in here because I figured you'd know something about them (not to discount anyone else - I figured MM and Mike might know a lot as well and everyone else has been very helpful!)
one question, tho, if Hammond forbade the dealers from carrying Leslies - what about the "Leslie I/O port" on the organs? were those not there until Hammond died?
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Ham N Egz
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 11:23:48
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Ok Beagle, were are getting somewhere now.
So your main use would be at church. Ok. Contemporary or classic hymnal music?
I think a Hammond instead of the Thomas/Conn/etc would be suited for this.
Don't overlook a smaller Hammond Spinet like an M or L series. Sometimes those are found in garage sales, CL etc for a few hundred bucks or just haul it away .
Green Acres is the place to be I dont twitter, facebook, snapchat, instagram,linkedin,tumble,pinterest,flick, blah blah,lets have an old fashioned conversation!
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Ham N Egz
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 11:26:59
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Beagle
thanks for the book recommendation, dave!
I was hoping you'd chime in here because I figured you'd know something about them (not to discount anyone else - I figured MM and Mike might know a lot as well and everyone else has been very helpful!)
one question, tho, if Hammond forbade the dealers from carrying Leslies - what about the "Leslie I/O port" on the organs? were those not there until Hammond died?
Remember, Hammond made their own tone cabinets, that was what the interface was for. Leslie adopted the interface . Here is a discussion on the subject
Green Acres is the place to be I dont twitter, facebook, snapchat, instagram,linkedin,tumble,pinterest,flick, blah blah,lets have an old fashioned conversation!
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bitflipper
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 11:28:15
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Hammond also held on to its spring reverb patents for as long as possible and that prevented guitar amp manufacturers from including that technology in their amps for nearly a decade after guitar amps had become popular. The first amp I ever owned that had a spring reverb in it was a Kustom amp ("cascade blue" sparkle naugahyde) bought in 1965. That reverb unit had the Hammond name on it. It was a more compact version of the one used in organs and was tinnier-sounding because its spring was folded into a "Z" shape to make the unit short enough to fit inside an amp head. The organ version was three times longer and sounded much better.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Beagle
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 11:30:05
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musicman100
Ok Beagle, were are getting somewhere now.
So your main use would be at church. Ok. Contemporary or classic hymnal music?
I think a Hammond instead of the Thomas/Conn/etc would be suited for this.
Don't overlook a smaller Hammond Spinet like an M or L series. Sometimes those are found in garage sales, CL etc for a few hundred bucks or just haul it away .
both, but mainly contemporary. however, even the "hymns" we do are played and sang in a "contemporary" way and not the old traditional "church hymn" or "gospel" style. I actually just "missed" someone on CL GIVING an M3 away because it had "low output volume" - I would have taken it and tried to get it to work. there's a T-582 on CL about an hour's drive from me for less than $200. I thought about it. It looks like it has tonewheels but not as many as an M3 or B3, etc. but it's also transistor amp, not tube.
post edited by Beagle - 2011/07/12 11:32:59
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Beagle
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 11:32:25
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musicman100
Beagle
thanks for the book recommendation, dave!
I was hoping you'd chime in here because I figured you'd know something about them (not to discount anyone else - I figured MM and Mike might know a lot as well and everyone else has been very helpful!)
one question, tho, if Hammond forbade the dealers from carrying Leslies - what about the "Leslie I/O port" on the organs? were those not there until Hammond died?
Remember, Hammond made their own tone cabinets, that was what the interface was for. Leslie adopted the interface .Here is a discussion on the subject
AH! I didn't realize that! that makes sense! bit - thanks - that's more good info!
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bitflipper
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 11:37:41
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what about the "Leslie I/O port" on the organs? Those goofy connectors were intentionally incompatible with competitors' speakers. They carried not only audio but also high voltage for the tube amp in the speaker enclosure. Leslie merely adapted to it, and when Hammond redesigned it he adapted again. It's ironic that my modern more-or-less-real-Hammond (made by the current trademark owner, Suzuki) has such a connector.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Beagle
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 11:40:13
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bitflipper
what about the "Leslie I/O port" on the organs?
Those goofy connectors were intentionally incompatible with competitors' speakers. They carried not only audio but also high voltage for the tube amp in the speaker enclosure. Leslie merely adapted to it, and when Hammond redesigned it he adapted again.
It's ironic that my modern more-or-less-real-Hammond (made by the current trademark owner, Suzuki) has such a connector.
I think now it's almost necessary even for the modern stuff because of being compatible with legacy leslies, tho. it's become the "standard"
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Ham N Egz
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 11:43:26
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there's a T-582 on CL about an hour's drive from me for less than $200. I thought about it. It looks like it has tonewheels but not as many as an M3 or B3, etc. but it's also transistor amp, not tube.
I googled the T-582, it has a rhythm section , which you dont need, but appears to have an internal rotary speaker!! Tab controls and real drawbars. Yes it is sold state, so less headache as far as the mechanical tonewheel mechanism and C/V scanner and tube amp, but just me, transistors are kinda sterile sounding..
Green Acres is the place to be I dont twitter, facebook, snapchat, instagram,linkedin,tumble,pinterest,flick, blah blah,lets have an old fashioned conversation!
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Beagle
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 11:45:07
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bitflipper
Beagle, on a budget your best bet would be a real vintage Hammond product rather than a modern emulation, but not the highly-prized and highly-priced B-3 or C-3. A better value would be an M-10x, which features the same keyboard and tone wheel assembly in a smaller, less-impressive enclosure. These can be had for a few hundred dollars, less if they need work or have been dragged around by a rock band.
Even cheaper are the many excellent software emulations. However, even though they sound good none of them replicate the Hammond playing experience. A typical MIDI keyboard controller doesn't feel at all like a Hammond keyboard, although there is an Italian company that makes organ-style controllers. Expensive and hard to find in the U.S., though.
dave - I have also seriously considered just getting a MIDI controller with sliders on it to control drawbars and using my secondary DAW and running Kontakt with the Vintage organs. I know Jim Roseberry does use his computer and softsynths live and thinks that's the best way to go. I've just been VERY "leary" of trying something like that.
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Beagle
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 11:47:55
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musicman100
there's a T-582 on CL about an hour's drive from me for less than $200. I thought about it. It looks like it has tonewheels but not as many as an M3 or B3, etc. but it's also transistor amp, not tube.
I googled the T-582, it has a rhythm section , which you dont need, but appears to have an internal rotary speaker!! Tab controls and real drawbars. Yes it is sold state, so less headache as far as the mechanical tonewheel mechanism and C/V scanner and tube amp, but just me, transistors are kinda sterile sounding..
so you're saying that it sounds like a good match for what I would use it for? especially for the budget?
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drewfx1
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 11:49:44
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bitflipper
The Hammond organ was indeed inspired by pipe organs and was originally meant to be a replacement for pipe organs. Hammond assumed his primary market was churches, and reportedly wasn't too enthused about its application in jazz and popular music.
The Leslie was also inspired by pipe organs. Don Leslie thought that what was missing from the Hammond sound was the spatial dimension of a pipe organ that you get because each note emanates from a different location in the room. He didn't manage to imitate that effect, but came up with something that sounded pretty cool anyway. It didn't hurt his business plan that Hammond speakers sounded like utter crap.
And these are examples of an interesting thing about a lot of legendary instruments - in many cases it was a (sometimes seriously) flawed attempt to emulate something else, that became a much better version of itself than whatever it was trying to emulate: electric guitar = louder acoustic guitar electric bass guitar = easier to transport, easier to play upright bass Hammond = pipe organ Rhodes = portable acoustic piano DX7 Rhodes sound = Rhodes string machines = real strings mellotron = spring (or plate) reverb = natural reverb wah wah pedal = electronic version of horn mute effect originally intended for brass instruments ...
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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Ham N Egz
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 12:01:20
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Beagle
musicman100
there's a T-582 on CL about an hour's drive from me for less than $200. I thought about it. It looks like it has tonewheels but not as many as an M3 or B3, etc. but it's also transistor amp, not tube.
I googled the T-582, it has a rhythm section , which you dont need, but appears to have an internal rotary speaker!! Tab controls and real drawbars. Yes it is sold state, so less headache as far as the mechanical tonewheel mechanism and C/V scanner and tube amp, but just me, transistors are kinda sterile sounding..
so you're saying that it sounds like a good match for what I would use it for? especially for the budget?
HERE is a you tube video of a guy playing a T. well shaky camera then no video but audio.For 200 bucks if it works YES!!
Green Acres is the place to be I dont twitter, facebook, snapchat, instagram,linkedin,tumble,pinterest,flick, blah blah,lets have an old fashioned conversation!
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bitflipper
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 12:02:40
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I have also seriously considered just getting a MIDI controller with sliders on it to control drawbars Beware that the shape and throw of the keys are different on an organ keyboard than on a standard MIDI controller. A proper organ controller will set you back almost as much as an XK-1 or VK-8. If it's just the drawbars you're after, Suzuki makes a standalone drawbar controller, but it's $400.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Beagle
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 12:04:05
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Beagle
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 12:06:11
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bitflipper
I have also seriously considered just getting a MIDI controller with sliders on it to control drawbars
Beware that the shape and throw of the keys are different on an organ keyboard than on a standard MIDI controller. A proper organ controller will set you back almost as much as an XK-1 or VK-8. If it's just the drawbars you're after, Suzuki makes a standalone drawbar controller, but it's $400.
ugh! $400 for a drawbar controller without the keyboard itself? after you spend the money on a MIDI keyboard controller as well you might as well buy an XK-1.
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Starise
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 14:13:48
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Beagle
Starise
I have seen a lot of Leslie copycats using the same drawbar setup. Roland and Korg come to mind right away. Nord did something I really disliked and make the drawbars digital buttons instead.
Others here know a lot more about how what makes a Leslie a leslie but to my ears NI has one of the better software emulations out there and it can be controlled via midi,both sliders and bass pedals. I had one setup to the sliders on a UC-33e and it was hard to beat!
If you want to play,there is a free one here....Organ
tim- you're confusing me. drawbars and leslies are completely independent of each other from what I've learned so far. drawbars act like a "mixer" for the additive synthesis of changing harmonics/sounds and in the hammonds they control the amount of sound coming from the tonewheels. a leslie is not controlled by the drawbars - it's completely independent of the organ and its drawbars.
as far as playing a VST - I have a good softsynth - I have the Kontakt Vintage Organs and they're really good. I'm not wanting a softsynth - I'm looking at POSSIBLY buying an organ for playing at "gigs."
Hi Beag, I somehow managed to get my terminologies wrong. I always associated the Hammond B-3 with the classic Leslie sounds. I had intended to say B-3 copycats. I just lumped the leslie and the B-3 into one thing.Hard to have the classic B-3 sound without having a leslie in there IMO. I know its a separate box but I always think Leslie when I hear B-3 AND visa versa........
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Beagle
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 14:33:01
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Guitarhacker
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 16:16:52
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I read a story some time back about the guy who is the master craftsman/restorer on the Wanamaker pipe organ in either Philly or NYC... This guy works full time on the restoration and plays it at nearly virtuoso level as well. The store had let the organ set and of course, that mean it rusted up and started falling apart. Many of the pipes were non functional and had been removed and thrown in a back room or basement. The store hired him to restore it, and IIRC he worked on it for several years before he was able to play it. The work continues, and I think now he has an apprentice with him.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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trimph1
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 19:58:49
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The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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jimkleban
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Re:about organs
2011/07/12 21:34:24
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Plus one for a T-200 series organ. It is transistor based but that's only the amp versus a tube amp.. it also has a built in LESLIE (lower rotor only) but it sounds real good.
Now, if you want to have that Jon Lord distorted organ sound then this baby won't be for you.
These old hammond organs can be purchased for next to nothing but it is the LESLIE that will KILL you in price. Plus, alot of the old Hammond organs haven't been properly maintained over the 40 or so years that Hammond stopped making Tonewheel organs and as such, need a lot of TLC to bring them back to life.
I bought a T-295 for $125 (plus $300 for shipping from Kansas City) and have it almost working perfectly (after 3 months) and finally called in a tech to finish the stuff I can't get working.
These old organs are really HIT AND MISS but totally worth it when you hear that spinning speaker sound.
Good luck,
Jim
The Lamb Laid Down on MIDI www.lldom.com Studio Cat Custom i7 with Thunderbolt (wonderful system built and configured by our own Jim R) Apollo Duo (via TB) UAD Quad UAD Duo WIN 8.1 x64 with 32 GB Ram 4 SSD for programs and sample libraries Splat (latest version)
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57Gregy
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Re:about organs
2011/07/13 14:12:24
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Not specifically organ-related, but Rusty Young of Poco pioneered the use of a Leslie speaker with steel guitar. Sounded cool.
For a short time I used our manager's Hammond C3 with Leslie in a band in the late 1970s. I loved playing it; didn't much care for hauling it around.
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Beagle
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Re:about organs
2011/07/13 15:50:26
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Well, things aren't working out for the T-582C. I'll continue looking.
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Ham N Egz
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Re:about organs
2011/07/13 16:55:48
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Beagle
Well, things aren't working out for the T-582C. I'll continue looking.
Thats Ok , keep you eyes peeled on the classifieds, the local nickle shopper papers, yard sales, etc, and you can PM or e-mail me (ill send u my email in a PM if you like)if you see one that strikes your fancy and have questions about it .
Green Acres is the place to be I dont twitter, facebook, snapchat, instagram,linkedin,tumble,pinterest,flick, blah blah,lets have an old fashioned conversation!
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Beagle
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Re:about organs
2011/07/13 17:14:38
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musicman100
Beagle
Well, things aren't working out for the T-582C. I'll continue looking.
Thats Ok , keep you eyes peeled on the classifieds, the local nickle shopper papers, yard sales, etc, and you can PM or e-mail me (ill send u my email in a PM if you like)if you see one that strikes your fancy and have questions about it .
thanks I appreciate that!
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