Beagle
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 50621
- Joined: 2006/03/29 11:03:12
- Location: Fort Worth, TX
- Status: offline
about organs
It's my understanding that only Hammonds have drawbars, correct? and even then only certain models, A-100, B3, M3 are some of the ones which have drawbars.
how do other ogran companies create the sound instead of using drawbars? I understand that the drawbars "mix" the amount of harmonics into the output to create the different sounds. how do other companies create similar sounds?
also, do only hammonds have leslie connections? if so, do other organs emulate the leslie or other type of modulation?
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/11 15:09:22
(permalink)
It might be more correct to say that only Hammonds have tone wheels... but I'm just a guitar player.
Leslie cabinets are often times free standing regardless of the fact that they have specific multi connection bundles and often times unique plugs.
I think many instruments can be played thru a Leslie... it's just that some of the old lower cost Hammond Leslie cabinets have some of the Leslie parts installed within the organ. I think the full size units were easier to think of as free standing.
Again, I am just a guitar player... so I'll be eager to read info from a organist with specific knowledge about it.
best regards,
mike
|
drewfx1
Max Output Level: -9.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6585
- Joined: 2008/08/04 16:19:11
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/11 15:09:22
(permalink)
I know Vox Continentals had drawbars.
And I think most organs had built in modulation of one kind or another, but the Leslie is a whole different animal.
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
|
Beagle
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 50621
- Joined: 2006/03/29 11:03:12
- Location: Fort Worth, TX
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/11 15:14:40
(permalink)
great info so far. keep it comin! I am getting interested more and more in organs. there's no way I'm spending the money on a real B3 but I'm curious about other orgrans and how they sound compared to the B3.
mike - I have heard, now that I think about it, about guitarists running thru a leslie - I assume they must be making some kind of preamp output to the leslie using the "leslie" connector or maybe they're "hacking" the output to match the I/O on the leslie connector?
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/11 15:30:46
(permalink)
I've taken a few different leslies apart and repaired a few of the amps. The sound part is totally standard stuff. The rotation equipment is very unique, and very cool. Imagine full circular electrical contacts that permits spinning the speaker continuously. The mechanical belts and such that connect the motor to the spinning horns are very fun to look at and fix up. The motor of course has a speed controller and all the associated electronics. I know that stuff is also standard but I have no experience with speed controllers at all... so I just look at that stuff. Some of the lower cost units were very clever in how they crammed the stuff in there. The bigger units are easier to understand... because they are fairly matter of fact and straight forward. I'm sure there must be lots of detailed info out there. Have Fun!!! best regards, mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/07/11 17:51:19
|
yorolpal
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13829
- Joined: 2003/11/20 11:50:37
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/11 17:12:31
(permalink)
Farfisa's had drawbars and switches. Same for Vox. Wurlitzers. And the same for many other brands. Just curious Beags, where did you come by your info that only Hammonds had them??
|
Beagle
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 50621
- Joined: 2006/03/29 11:03:12
- Location: Fort Worth, TX
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/11 17:19:21
(permalink)
why, on the internet of course!!!  sorry, my ol' pal, I am apparently wrong about that - but technically what I meant was "console" type organs like the B3/M3/C3/A-100, etc. as opposed to the Lowry, Yamaha, Baldwin, Allen, Kimball, etc organs. I'm also looking around the net to see the differences between some of the console organs and a lot of them were transistor organs instead of tube organs.
post edited by Beagle - 2011/07/11 17:23:27
|
bapu
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 86000
- Joined: 2006/11/25 21:23:28
- Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/11 17:34:49
(permalink)
Mike,
I once "floor" mounted the horn driver on an Acoustic 260 cabinet and mounted a motor with a rheostat (to control speed) that drove a Leslie Horn. Since the Acoustic 260 was the 2x15" model I used it for bass and got some wicked sounds with the Leslie horn attached.
|
Ham N Egz
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 15161
- Joined: 2005/01/21 14:27:49
- Location: Arpadhon
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/11 17:53:07
(permalink)
Well the Leslie is a trademarked name for the rotating speaker system, which Don Leslie invented to emulate a pipe organ sound, many other console and home organs had a rotating speaker system in them, different from the Lowery and Thomas Tremolo and vibrato generators.
Yes drawbars were on all kinds of organs usually providing a mix of a "flute" sine wave at a varying level, as opposed to voice "tabs" which switched a voice tone on or off at a fixed level .Of course the tabs were associated with voices such as reed, brass, diapason, chimes, etc.
Of course the older tonewheel hammonds were the 91 tonewheels rotating in front of pickups, and the outputs of these were wires to a set of buss bars, where the drawbar sliders would slide over making contact at the various "footage stops"(from pipe organ days) at 8 levels. Newer Hammond created the tone electronically instead of mechanically.
I have a 1930s Model AV Hammond running through a 147 Leslie in my rehearsal studio, and a Modeled Nord Electro 3 and Stage 2 for Hammond tones for my gigs.
No drawbars on the Nords, but the footage and level stops are there on the buttons.
Green Acres is the place to be I dont twitter, facebook, snapchat, instagram,linkedin,tumble,pinterest,flick, blah blah,lets have an old fashioned conversation!
|
Beagle
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 50621
- Joined: 2006/03/29 11:03:12
- Location: Fort Worth, TX
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/11 17:57:19
(permalink)
EXCELLENT, MM! so the switches (and I guess drawbars if some of them had them) on the Lowerys and Thomas' etc are similar to the drawbars in that they add amounts of harmonics/other tones into the mix similar to what the drawbars do?
how does the Nord Electro "model" the hammond tones without the drawbars?
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/11 18:01:08
(permalink)
That must have been wicked bapu... dropping the bomb.
Beagle,
Hammonds are famous for having used a patented tone wheel generation system that no on else used.
The draw bars in Hammond's work in unique ways as they actually connect via a rube-goldbereg wire arm mechanism to the tone wheel contacts.
The draw bars on other organs control the mix differently... some are just connected to linear potentiometers.
The real unique thing about Hammond is that they did not use tube or solid state oscillators as a tone source... they have the tone wheel sound generators.
I have parted out tube oscillator type organs for parts. It's easy to see that they must have cost a fortune to produce even in their heyday. After seeing all the parts it is easy to imagine why the Organ companies led the way to solid state in the music instrument category.
I don't know if my nomenclature is fully correct because as I say... I'm not an organist.
best regards,
mike
|
bapu
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 86000
- Joined: 2006/11/25 21:23:28
- Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/11 18:05:02
(permalink)
mike_mccue
That must have been wicked bapu... dropping the bomb.
I was wicked before this: 
|
haydn12
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
- Total Posts : 322
- Joined: 2007/01/29 17:12:04
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/11 18:07:53
(permalink)
Hammonds basically use sine waves which the tone wheels create. The drawbars add different frequencies with the 8' being the normal octave, 16' being an octave lower, 4' an octave higher (than 8'), etc. The various amount of each frequency can be added by how far out the drawbar is pulled out.
On a Lowrey or Thomas organ you have various stops. Usually these organs have a variety of Flute stops which are usually just a sine wave like on the hammonds. These will be at various frequencies such as 16', 8', 4', 5-1/3', 2', etc. The larger organs usually give you more stops. The stops are either on or off, so you can't change the amount of each one added. These organs have other stops such strings, brass, clarinet which offer other wave shapes besides sine waves. These are usually added to the flute stops to get more variations to the sounds. These electronic organs work more like a pipe organ would by using stops versus drawbars.
The 16', 8', 4' were originally used to show the length of the pipes on pipe organs.
Jim
|
Ham N Egz
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 15161
- Joined: 2005/01/21 14:27:49
- Location: Arpadhon
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/11 18:14:58
(permalink)
Beagle
EXCELLENT, MM! so the switches (and I guess drawbars if some of them had them) on the Lowerys and Thomas' etc are similar to the drawbars in that they add amounts of harmonics/other tones into the mix similar to what the drawbars do?
how does the Nord Electro "model" the hammond tones without the drawbars?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammond_organ is a great link to read the history and tech specs Right! As I and Mike mention , the Hammond is a whole nother animal, and the MOJO it works to produce a tone is unlike anything else. The switch Tabs did "mix" in a sense you would have an 8 foot diapason stop at a fixed volume level, and you could add the 4 foot diapason tab at its fixed level. Drawbars were "finite: . in the sense of only 9(0 off to 8 full on) levels per individual drawbar, but when you adjusted the various footage drawbars, beautiful things happen. AFA the Nords, each individual 96(my bad earlier) tone generator is modeled and "mixed" via the electronic drawbars .. so the hammond tone is modeled and controlled eletronically instead of mechanically via buss bar drawbars
Green Acres is the place to be I dont twitter, facebook, snapchat, instagram,linkedin,tumble,pinterest,flick, blah blah,lets have an old fashioned conversation!
|
Beagle
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 50621
- Joined: 2006/03/29 11:03:12
- Location: Fort Worth, TX
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/11 23:06:54
(permalink)
AH, fantastic info, guys - that's EXACTLY what I was looking for!!!
|
Rbh
Max Output Level: -52 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2349
- Joined: 2007/09/05 22:33:44
- Location: Indiana
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/12 01:34:43
(permalink)
I have a mid 70's leslie 760.... If recall - haven't mucked with it in a number of years - the speakers are stationary and it's just the horns that rotate. I also have the Hammond X-5 which was touted by Hammond to be the first " portable b-3 ". It's has fully electronic tone circuits with drawbars and the same keyboard and contacts as the original Hammonds. It's actually very good sounding with the Leslie. Nice spring reverb tank and it has a line in which is great for playing guitars through. You'd be surprised that probably 80 % of the old Hammond sound comes just from the key contacts acting a bit variable with every key strike and a real leslie whirling around.
|
Beagle
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 50621
- Joined: 2006/03/29 11:03:12
- Location: Fort Worth, TX
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/12 08:20:24
(permalink)
thanks RB! more good info.
so what I think I'm gathering from everyone is that the consoles which are NOT Hammond with tonewheels are not going to sound like the hammonds with tonewheels - that the tonewheels are the unique factor. this is the kind of information I'm looking for when looking around at organs.
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/12 08:56:53
(permalink)
As a quick reminder... it's may be a good idea to preface a contemporary interest in organs by reminding everyone that organs are examples of "additive synthesis" instruments.
The draw bars of pipe organs, as well the controls on the latest electronic facsimiles are meant to add and mix harmonics that sum into various waveforms with complex character. We can make changes and easily hear a phenomena we can describe using Fourier analysis.
Even the simplest organ can provide fascinating experiences.
I imagine most know this... but I think the reminder might excite more interest in a seemingly nostalgic subject. In fact, and old Hammond is incredibly hi-tech... we probably couldn't invent it today... we've nearly lost the work shop culture that imagined the wire armatures inside.
Have fun Beagle!
best regards,
mike
|
Crg
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7719
- Joined: 2007/11/15 07:59:17
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/12 09:08:49
(permalink)
Most of the drawbars on the Hammond organs act as an equalizer slot with a specific voice parameter that is hard wired in the organ and controlled by the preset keys. So any other organ will have some arrangement of equalizer and patch-voice variation. There are too many variations to list.
|
Guitarhacker
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 24398
- Joined: 2007/12/07 12:51:18
- Location: NC
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/12 09:15:26
(permalink)
This is just a guess from having read some stories on pipe organs in the past.... but on the B3 with the draw-bars, wasn't that an attempt to recreate the really big pipes on the church and cathedral pipe organs that actually have 32' pipes?
Kinda hard to fit a 32' pipe in your living room or carry to a gig.... so the draw bars simulate the sound making it almost possible to have a big organ sound in a smaller space.
On the pipe organs, the draw bars are actually opening the valves to the pipes.... different pipes come into play with different draw bar settings, thus allowing tone changes.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/12 09:27:05
(permalink)
That is correct. I have a friend, two generations my senior, who is a working pipe organ tuner and maintenance man.
I have, on occasions, accompanied him on his jobs to observe the process. It is also lots of fun to be granted access to climb around inside the stacks behind the screen.
It's one of the ultimate stage-hand-geek opportunities to go further behind the scenes. It's even cooler than being invited up to the cloud.
:-)
|
trimph1
Max Output Level: -12 dBFS
- Total Posts : 6348
- Joined: 2010/09/07 19:20:06
- Location: London ON
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/12 09:28:57
(permalink)
I think the drawbars were set up to imitate the big pipe organs..they certainly had that sound. One of my favorite organs.....Thomas Organ... There was one area of the market that Thomas cornered. They made a successful line of small, inexpensive spinets perfectly geared for home use. The manuals had 37-notes and there were 13 pedals with about a dozen stops and a few dial controls. These “baby” organs had attack percussion, repeat and a Leslie speaker. Not a bad deal for $500.00 in the 1960s! These organs were found in homes and apartments and purchased by parents who wanted to see if the children were interested in playing it. If they were, a trade-in for a better instrument could be made and if there was no interest, not much money was lost. They also had set up one with a Moog unit as well...fascinating company...
http://theatreorgans.com/hammond/keng/kenhtml/Thomas%20Organs%20Page.htm
post edited by trimph1 - 2011/07/12 09:30:31
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
|
Ham N Egz
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 15161
- Joined: 2005/01/21 14:27:49
- Location: Arpadhon
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/12 09:49:02
(permalink)
I still enjoy watching the Lawrence Welk Show and listening to the organist on his Thomas Organ kicking bass pedals and switching registrations. Not a Hammond sound, different but pleasant.
The comments that the Hammond was modeled as a "replacement" for a pipe organ were Lauren Hammonds idea, and mr. Leslie invented his rotating speaker to further simulate the pipe organ sound.
Mr Hammond and Mr Leslie were not the best of friends, and publicly distanced themselves from their respective products.It wasn't until Jazz and rock players paired the two together that the B3/Leslie marriage survived . Hammond had their own line of tone cabinets that were stationary.
Green Acres is the place to be I dont twitter, facebook, snapchat, instagram,linkedin,tumble,pinterest,flick, blah blah,lets have an old fashioned conversation!
|
Beagle
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 50621
- Joined: 2006/03/29 11:03:12
- Location: Fort Worth, TX
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/12 10:04:25
(permalink)
fantastic stuff guys! I'm lovin' this thread!
|
Starise
Max Output Level: -0.3 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7563
- Joined: 2007/04/07 17:23:02
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/12 10:42:49
(permalink)
I have seen a lot of Leslie copycats using the same drawbar setup. Roland and Korg come to mind right away. Nord did something I really disliked and make the drawbars digital buttons instead. Others here know a lot more about what makes a Leslie a leslie but to my ears NI has one of the better software emulations out there and it can be controlled via midi,both sliders and bass pedals. I had one sB3 connected to the sliders on a UC-33e and it was hard to beat! If you want to play,there is a free one here.... Organ
post edited by Starise - 2011/07/12 10:53:07
|
Ham N Egz
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 15161
- Joined: 2005/01/21 14:27:49
- Location: Arpadhon
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/12 10:46:01
(permalink)
As an aside, lets look at software versions of the Hammond. Romplers such as the Motif and Roland are static snapshots of the wave forms, albeit multisampled. So you do not get the harmonic mixing and mojo of the hardware tonewheel and circuit interaction.
Now NI B4II was modeled, the replacement, vintage organs, is sampled, so you hear users like the original more because of the interaction of modeling.
Leslie simulators in romplers and software are another point of contention. Although the rotary speaker in the new Hammond SK1 and I believe the Nords are fairly faithful, there is a hardware box called the Ventilator that nails a 122/147 Leslie to a T. The box has a Sharc processor and sophisticated software/firmware.
I have been on a quest for the holy grail of organ emulations since the 1980s, nothing will ever replace the old Hammonds, even though they may be called a dinosaur. As someone mentioned earlier, I doubt we could recreate the mechanical , electrical, and wood that was a hammond
Green Acres is the place to be I dont twitter, facebook, snapchat, instagram,linkedin,tumble,pinterest,flick, blah blah,lets have an old fashioned conversation!
|
Beagle
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 50621
- Joined: 2006/03/29 11:03:12
- Location: Fort Worth, TX
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/12 10:53:28
(permalink)
Starise
I have seen a lot of Leslie copycats using the same drawbar setup. Roland and Korg come to mind right away. Nord did something I really disliked and make the drawbars digital buttons instead.
Others here know a lot more about how what makes a Leslie a leslie but to my ears NI has one of the better software emulations out there and it can be controlled via midi,both sliders and bass pedals. I had one setup to the sliders on a UC-33e and it was hard to beat!
If you want to play,there is a free one here....Organ
tim- you're confusing me. drawbars and leslies are completely independent of each other from what I've learned so far. drawbars act like a "mixer" for the additive synthesis of changing harmonics/sounds and in the hammonds they control the amount of sound coming from the tonewheels. a leslie is not controlled by the drawbars - it's completely independent of the organ and its drawbars. as far as playing a VST - I have a good softsynth - I have the Kontakt Vintage Organs and they're really good. I'm not wanting a softsynth - I'm looking at POSSIBLY buying an organ for playing at "gigs."
|
Beagle
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 50621
- Joined: 2006/03/29 11:03:12
- Location: Fort Worth, TX
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/12 10:57:58
(permalink)
musicman100
As an aside, lets look at software versions of the Hammond. Romplers such as the Motif and Roland are static snapshots of the wave forms, albeit multisampled. So you do not get the harmonic mixing and mojo of the hardware tonewheel and circuit interaction.
Now NI B4II was modeled, the replacement, vintage organs, is sampled, so you hear users like the original more because of the interaction of modeling.
Leslie simulators in romplers and software are another point of contention. Although the rotary speaker in the new Hammond SK1 and I believe the Nords are fairly faithful, there is a hardware box called the Ventilator that nails a 122/147 Leslie to a T. The box has a Sharc processor and sophisticated software/firmware.
I have been on a quest for the holy grail of organ emulations since the 1980s, nothing will ever replace the old Hammonds, even though they may be called a dinosaur. As someone mentioned earlier, I doubt we could recreate the mechanical , electrical, and wood that was a hammond
that's part of what has been getting me to thinking about buying an organ for "gigging." I have NI Vintage organs and they are really pretty good, but they simply are not the same as a B3 with a 122 or 147. I also had a motif with some 3rd party B3 emulators and was pretty happy with that, too, but I ended up selling my motif because it was just too much for me. I only used it for the organs and the vintage keyboard sounds, so I felt like I had paid for a lot of keyboard that I wasn't using.
|
The Maillard Reaction
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 31918
- Joined: 2004/07/09 20:02:20
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/12 11:02:22
(permalink)
Yes if you think of a hammond as a 1880's belt driven factory it seems right at home. I'll bet many people today have only a vague idea what a 1880's belt driven factory looked like.  Which is not a criticism... but rather just an observation. We do things differently now. :-)
|
Starise
Max Output Level: -0.3 dBFS
- Total Posts : 7563
- Joined: 2007/04/07 17:23:02
- Status: offline
Re:about organs
2011/07/12 11:02:25
(permalink)
I agree Musicmam 100 , I have yet to find a software rotary Leslie that sounds as good as the real thing. They(the software emulations or some of them) have done a good job IMO of replicating the organ sounds with the pulls,stops and pedals but can't quite get the Leslie Rotary sound down.
I'm guessing that it might have something to do with the way the sound is "thrown" around the room as opposed to simulating that with a set of stereo speakers that don't spin lol!
Funny to think that the Leslie organ was the new thing way back when replacing a lot of pipe organs and now its the old thing..... we should call this the age of the artificial.
|