scaryjapan
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best way to bring down master mix level
Hey guys,
I just finished getting a mix ready for export, it's fairly large, busses set with various comps and verb etc..
One thing is that the master fader is in the red.
There are 3 ways that I know of to fix this, but I'm not sure if they are the best way.
1. just bring dow the master fader. Seems simple enough, but I do want this mix to be clear and loud. I will take this to a mastering house as well.
2. Group all tracks and then lower the volume of them at once, keeping the same spread.
The only thing is the bus comps will be then hit differently right?
3. the Last thing I can do is group all busses and lower the volume there.
Am I missing something?
Any suggestions appreciated. thanks!
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corrupted
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/03 14:54:06
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In the red is fine, as long as it's not peaking on the output meters. That is the ONLY time you'll be losing data. If you do still want to bring it down, just knock the master fader down and you're set. It won't change anything as far as the relationships of each track and bus. It can be brought back up to the same level later with no ill effects.
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StudioCat57
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/03 14:59:42
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If none of the individual tracks are hot, lower the master or main buss till you are showing around -6db....
also, look @ your master wav file as it plays...are you cutting off any of the edges? looks like a flat top...
All the tracks combined are making the master buss "hot"...
wow, that sounds dirty!!!
"57"
P-4 3.0ghz- 3 gigs ram Sonar 6.021 Producer DM-3200 Motu 2408mk3 Lots of VST's
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scaryjapan
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/03 15:04:09
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Thats exactly it, all the levels are clear, averaging around -3.
I have one buss that is set with eq into SSL comp for drums and bass, this is the only thing that is saying +3.1.
So just bringing down the master would be optimal and keep good clarity?
Thanks again
ps. This recording is at 24/44.1
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corrupted
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/03 15:04:27
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CJaysMusic
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/03 18:55:10
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I always keep the master buss at zero (unity) and control the volume with the individual track faders. I also keep all bus's at zero also and control the volume of the bus's with the sends on each track. I dont mess with any trim levels at all, i keep them all at zero. Man that felt good....  Cj
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kwgm
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/03 19:11:05
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ORIGINAL: scaryjapan
Thats exactly it, all the levels are clear, averaging around -3.
I have one buss that is set with eq into SSL comp for drums and bass, this is the only thing that is saying +3.1.
So just bringing down the master would be optimal and keep good clarity?
Thanks again
ps. This recording is at 24/44.1
With 24-bit, you just don't your tracks to be so hot. You've got 60db of headroom!
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T.S.
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/03 19:38:47
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I'm with CJ on this. I don't remember what it was but some time ago I ran into a problem with simply lowering the main bus. Since then I've always gone through and readjusted the tracks, a PITA but I think worth it. That way I'm adjusting the tracks to fit the mix rather than adjusting the mix to fit the tracks. 
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eternal85
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/03 19:56:48
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A technique of mine, and it is no means "Professional", is usually I of course make sure none of my tracks are clipping. Then, disregarding how hot the master bus might be, I mix at a steady volume, always the same volume output on the master. Then, after I feel the mix is decent (it usually is loud), I take the master output, drop it by -7 decibels. After I bounce that, I apply BOOST11 to maximize the sound, then master the boosted WAV file with Ozone.
Anyone have any thoughts on this process?
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StudioCat57
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/04 08:40:46
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ORIGINAL: CJaysMusic
I always keep the master buss at zero (unity) and control the volume with the individual track faders. I also keep all bus's at zero also and control the volume of the bus's with the sends on each track. I dont mess with any trim levels at all, i keep them all at zero.
Man that felt good....
Cj
I think I am closer to CJ's process....all my controls are set @ 0, and the input signal is controlled through my digital mixer to be say around -6db on sonars track vu meters....My master fader is assigned a buss which is where I raise or lower, generally lower, the over all output but not any individual track when outputting to 2 track stereo.... Since, I mix everything down to 2track stereo at the end, prior to mastering, my main concern is the output not clipping and get a good starting point on the mastering end... "57"
P-4 3.0ghz- 3 gigs ram Sonar 6.021 Producer DM-3200 Motu 2408mk3 Lots of VST's
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sleepybrighteyez
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/04 09:22:04
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How is your gain staging? By this I mean, are you tracking everything near the red on each track? When it all gets summed at the master there is a high chance it will clip if each track is recorded hot. If you track into your DAW around -18 (in the DAW, not on your pres), you will leave yourself a lot of headroom. You may be surprised that even when each track may average -18 (with higher peaks), when it is summed at the master, the volume will be closer to the 0.
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papa2004
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/04 10:16:59
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I always keep the master buss at zero (unity) and control the volume with the individual track faders. Standard procedure in nearly every pro studio. Other than fadeouts (and there are exceptions to this facet) the master buss should remain untouched. I also keep all bus's at zero also and control the volume of the bus's with the sends on each track. That's a questionable technique (depending on the song and how the busses are configured) that will differ from one user to the next. I have no problem using the bus faders to control their outputs to the master buss. I find it much easier doing it that way if I'm sending a lot of individual tracks to that particular bus. I dont mess with any trim levels at all, i keep them all at zero. Trim levels can be your friend. Using them appropriately opens up a few more options when it's time to mix (not to mention how they detemine the input gain whilst recording). There's a reason you have the option of adjusting the trim level. Cakewalk didn't just throw it in there because every major console manufacturer included it. It's there to serve a purpose. Learning how to properly use it will compliment anyone's productivity.
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scaryjapan
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/04 10:17:40
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I do track pretty hot.
I usually try to get my in's as hot as possible without going red.
Now question:
If I arm a track and would like to turn down the level of incoming audio, would this be through trim?
even though my pres are hot, this would work?
Thanks guys.
I'm still unsure about the best way to lower my overall, at first I got the jist that just lowering the master fader would be best, but the consensus seems to differ greatly.
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StudioCat57
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/04 10:27:11
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I don't have the problem the op stated... No redline anywhere...
I am just saying that all my signals (gains) are set at the mic pre's on the tascam dm-3200...not @ sonar...this way I get zero "hot" signals....I usually run from somewhere around -15db average with some peaks going to -10db to -5db on the tracks not the main buss....
If it gets hot on the master buss due to many tracks, I lower the tracks to lower the overall output...but it is rare that I need to do this.....My setup is pretty much tweaked and not necessary to adjust anything except for amps and voice tracks..
The pres on my drum tracks stays pretty much the same...I use same mic placement time and time again...
Just roll in the drums, mic, quick check on all the tracks 1 thru 12 and start rockin!!!
P-4 3.0ghz- 3 gigs ram Sonar 6.021 Producer DM-3200 Motu 2408mk3 Lots of VST's
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papa2004
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/04 10:28:41
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ORIGINAL: scaryjapan
I do track pretty hot.
I usually try to get my in's as hot as possible without going red.
Now question:
If I arm a track and would like to turn down the level of incoming audio, would this be through trim?
even though my pres are hot, this would work?
Thanks guys.
I'm still unsure about the best way to lower my overall, at first I got the jist that just lowering the master fader would be best, but the consensus seems to differ greatly.
*LOL* Somebody's finally getting it! Scaryjapan, In the digital world you needn't worry about tracking "hot"! I typically track at -12dB to -9dB (or less) and mix at -6dB to -3dB (depending on the material) to leave plenty of headroom. Frankly, if your system is properly configured, you could track at -15dB or less and not have to worry about any noise floor artifacts. Use the "Trim" level function to determine your input level on the tracks being recorded. Run your preamps "hot" if you wish to achieve a certain sound, but don't confuse the preamp's "output" with the "input" to your channel. If the preamp's output sounds "gritty", it's still going to be "gritty" on the track channel regardless of the input level. Did that make any sense?
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jinga8
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/04 10:30:03
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If I arm a track and would like to turn down the level of incoming audio, would this be through trim?
even though my pres are hot, this would work? Trim on the mixer/preamp before it gets into Sonar? Yes! This is the only way to lower the input. Trim inside Sonar won't affect anything until it has gone throught the A/D and been printed to a track in Sonar.
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jsaras
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/04 10:33:29
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ORIGINAL: sleepybrighteyez
You may be surprised that even when each track may average -18 (with higher peaks), when it is summed at the master, the volume will be closer to the 0.
Ditto. Record softly and save the big stick for later.
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river
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/04 10:33:39
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I do track pretty hot.
I usually try to get my in's as hot as possible without going red. You're depriving yourself of headroom to work with as far as the gain staging of using EQ, compression, effects. Shoot for average tracking levels of -15dBFS, with occasional peak levels around -6 and you shouldn't have to worry about pulling your master fader down, but it's no crime to do that either. What's hitting +3.1, the drum bus or the SSL comp? You might encounter some intersample overs that will become audible when you get your mastering level up. It's that slightly wooly sound.....
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scaryjapan
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/04 10:55:39
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ORIGINAL: river
I do track pretty hot.
I usually try to get my in's as hot as possible without going red.
You're depriving yourself of headroom to work with as far as the gain staging of using EQ, compression, effects. Shoot for average tracking levels of -15dBFS, with occasional peak levels around -6 and you shouldn't have to worry about pulling your master fader down, but it's no crime to do that either.
What's hitting +3.1, the drum bus or the SSL comp? You might encounter some intersample overs that will become audible when you get your mastering level up. It's that slightly wooly sound.....
In this particular song, I put the bass and master drum buss together, they were going wild and needed to be gelled. I put a pultec UAD eq, into the SSL bus comp, it is peaking at +3.1, which alone doesn't bother me, it's just that the master is pretty red. It doesn't sound bad, but I don't want to overcrowd and mess up the mix. This is a large project, about 65 tracks, all set, but I did space out and for some reason didn't think to check out the master. So now I am trying to figure out the best way to lower the combined tracks, without changing the mix or changing the buss ins (so buss comping isn't changed either).
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scaryjapan
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/04 10:58:13
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ORIGINAL: jinga8
If I arm a track and would like to turn down the level of incoming audio, would this be through trim?
even though my pres are hot, this would work?
Trim on the mixer/preamp before it gets into Sonar? Yes! This is the only way to lower the input.
Trim inside Sonar won't affect anything until it has gone throught the A/D and been printed to a track in Sonar.
Its funny, I've been using Sonar since cakewalk PA days (1997) and have yet to use trim. Sp if trim doesn't lower the incoming audio from my sound module, what use is it, besides another volume control?
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river
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/04 11:08:22
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I put a pultec UAD eq, into the SSL bus comp, it is peaking at +3.1, which alone doesn't bother me, it's just that the master is pretty red. You might try a good quality limiter plugin on the master set 1:1 with the threshold being the determining function for overall mix level ie: -3dB, that is, if you're dead set against just pulling the master down.
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trock8500
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/04 11:12:55
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there is a great thread from Terry manning on his forum at REP on tracking levels in digital. basically its fine AND better to track in low, even -24 etc and keep your overall out at -6 max. then you have plenty of headroom to master effectively, you are gaining lots by keeping the headroom in and losing nothing by tracking low http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/15038/7478/ its a long read but very very worthwhile i think
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scaryjapan
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/04 11:22:37
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ORIGINAL: trock8500
there is a great thread from Terry manning on his forum at REP on tracking levels in digital. basically its fine AND better to track in low, even -24 etc and keep your overall out at -6 max. then you have plenty of headroom to master effectively, you are gaining lots by keeping the headroom in and losing nothing by tracking low
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/15038/7478/
its a long read but very very worthwhile i think
thanks trock, gonna check em out, as soon as I have 4 days to spare!
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sleepybrighteyez
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/04 11:29:19
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With digital you don't need to track very hot. It's debatable if you are tracking at 16bits, but if you are tracking at 24bits there is plenty of headroom available so you don't have to track hot. Now, the pres you will want to get hot unless you want the sound of not pushing your pre as hard. Some pres have a gain control for the output so you can trim the output without pulling back the gain into the pre. Two of my pres have this feature so I first get my signal nice and bumping through the pre, but then I'll use the master gain to trim it back while watching the input levels in Sonar.
The trim feature in Sonar is there to trim the incoming signal as well.
Once you get a hold of gain staging, you will find extra headroom even on the master bus. If you have so much going on in the mix that you are still clipping the master, then pull some track faders down. Having extra headroom at the master is great- it gives you room to use a comp or limiter for shaping the sound and not so much squashing it to force it under 0. You may also find that your tracked instruments sound more dynamic/fuller.
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trock8500
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/04 11:30:22
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sleepybrighteyez
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/04 11:33:17
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Hey, I'm not sure why my post said it was in reply to yours. My original post was actually in reply to the OP. Sorry about that.
But ya, I do the same. I get the average input levels into Sonar around -18, but the peaks can be higher. The idea of keeping the average at -18 is so that you have all that headroom for the peaks.
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Desperate Dan
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/04 11:36:41
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2. Group all tracks and then lower the volume of them at once, keeping the same spread. You dont need to have every track touching the redline anymore like we used to do in Analog or even early 16bit digital days. 24Bit recording and Low Signal to Noise Ratio Pre's and Interfaces mean you can group all the tracks together and reduce them slightly until your Master levels are OK maybe -3db for the Mastering engineer to perfrom his magic, you still keep their relative Gains and keep the master at Unity which I believe is ideal.
Windows 7 Professional 64 bit - Intel Q-9550 2.83 CPU, 8Gb DDR800, Gigabyte EP35-DS3R, M-Audio Delta 44, Yamaha HS-80M Monitors, UAD-1 Ultra Pack I'm reading a book about anti-gravity at the moment and I just can't put it down
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j boy
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/04 12:25:45
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ORIGINAL: scaryjapan
So if trim doesn't lower the incoming audio from my sound module, what use is it, besides another volume control?
Let's say you hit your A/D stage with a "hot" level when you tracked, and you don't want to go back and re-record at a lower level. The trim allows you to start the processing chain (fx bin, etc.) at an optimal gain level... by "trimming" the gain. Conversely if you had tracked too weak a signal you could boost it up so as to feed the fx at a proper level. It's all about balancing every link in the chain. If your levels are set perfectly during tracking then, yes, it's generally not used much.
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SvenArne
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/04 12:26:54
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best way to bring down master mix level Quick grouping and Offset mode! Sven
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LKane
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RE: best way to bring down master mix level
2008/03/04 13:49:34
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I dont mess with any trim levels at all, i keep them all at zero. Papa wrote; Trim levels can be your friend. Using them appropriately opens up a few more options when it's time to mix (not to mention how they detemine the input gain whilst recording). There's a reason you have the option of adjusting the trim level. Cakewalk didn't just throw it in there because every major console manufacturer included it. It's there to serve a purpose. Learning how to properly use it will compliment anyone's productivity. Not to mention that if you are using automate track volume envelopes. the trim is your only way (I believe) of tweaking your overall track level. Changes you try and make with the track fader will be overridden by your automation choices. (note-I speak of track envelopes, this is not so with clip envelopes they do not affect the track fader)
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