southpaw3473
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Re: brick wall limiter
2014/06/10 10:18:36
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bandso Kjaerhus Audio: Classic Master Limiter http://www.vst4free.com/free_vst.php?plugin=Classic_Master_Limiter&id=1875 You have to click the little Win32 vst link to get it. I have no idea if any extra hidden "freeware" is included when you install it, but the name seems to ring a bell as a quality free plugin (someone here may have the answer to that question)
I used this for a number of years and it's great. 32 bit, though. It's funny Kjaerhus plugins just disappeared a couple of years ago. Cool you found the link!
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CJaysMusic
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Re: brick wall limiter
2014/06/10 12:12:32
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'm sorry CJ old friend, but that is a silly and imprecise definition IMO! No im not SvenArne. Google it if you do not believe me and READ any kind of book on the subject. Dude, stop misleading people with your false facts. This is true and its FAC - The difference between a compressor and a limiter is only in the compression ratio used. Anything above 10:1 is limiting and anything lower is compressing. This is FACT and its well documented in over a 1,000 books CJ
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mettelus
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Re: brick wall limiter
2014/06/10 13:37:16
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CJ is correct. Without look ahead, a limiter can be overshot in some transient situations (since the attack time is identical to a compressor). A "brickwall" limiter either requires look ahead or a Max output setting. "Limiter" seems to be synonomous with "brickwall limiter" for some, but the definition is indeed a compressor with a steep slope.
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CJaysMusic
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Re: brick wall limiter
2014/06/11 12:14:38
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Thank you Mettelus. I thought i was in an alternate universe where facts where no longer facts. CJ
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Kylotan
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Re: brick wall limiter
2014/06/11 15:59:59
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SvenArne
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Re: brick wall limiter
2014/06/11 17:40:24
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Kylotan This is opinion. I've never seen anywhere outside of this thread claim that there's some sort of standard cut-off point for the ratio beyond which compression ceases to be compression and becomes limiting. Yes, that was my reaction as well. The important thing is that limiting is extreme compression done with the intent of keeping audio below a certain level. A 'limiter' is a compressor that is especially suited to this task.
This. When limiting you work towards containing or "limiting" the output of a given track regardless of the ratio or speed constants used in the process (though a high ratio and fast attack would certainly be more effective in most cases). The term "compression" on the other hand applies to the use of dynamic range reduction towards lot's of different goals like soundshaping, enhancement, distortion and sustain along with making the soft parts louder. Another example: If you use a 1176 or Distressor with the "all-buttons-in" or "Nuke" modes respectively to completely squash a snare drum, would you say what you did was put a limiter on there? To use the term limiter in this instance does not sound right to me. CJ Google it if you do not believe me and READ any kind of book on the subject.
I have read dozens of books and articles on this subject, and I don't recall any of them give such an arbitrary ratio value where compression suddenly becomes limiting. Can you please post a link that contains this definition? Sven
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SvenArne
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Re: brick wall limiter
2014/06/11 17:43:44
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dubdisciple
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Re: brick wall limiter
2014/06/11 17:54:24
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I think 10:1 is often given as the standard cutoff of when a compressor is regarded as a limiter is due more to the fact that manufacturers often use it as such. This does not seem to be based on any concrete definition but more like a loose tradition that is selectively followed. CJ is treating tradition as definition and is right to a degree. If you gave any audio engineer a compressor that had a fixed ratio of 10:1 he would likely regard it as a limiter. Where I think his argument falls short is using statements like "..google it.." and other dismissive statements that give no facts but reiterate his position. What happens when somene Google's it and gets answers that differ? Do we dismiss the results that differ from our opinion. Although I personally don't have a problem with the line being drawn at 10:1, I think defining such things is probably more about purpose than arbitrary lines in the sand.
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Karyn
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Re: brick wall limiter
2014/06/11 18:13:21
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Ok, enough already. Once a compression ratio goes above about 10:1 (a 10db rise input only gives a 1db rise in output) most people will start to loose the ability to hear the difference in output. It can be said to be limiting and could be referred to as a limiter but the reality is it is still just compressing. The output will continue to rise if the input continues to rise. This is true for 20:1 or 50:1 or even 10000:1. It is basic math. A limiter will prevent the output from rising regardless of how high the input goes above the threshold level. A slow acting limiter will let peaks through while keeping the average level constant. A fast acting limiter will also limit the peaks. THIS is a brick wall limiter. It let's nothing go higher than the threshold level. Now stop arguing semantics and go make music
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SvenArne
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Re: brick wall limiter
2014/06/11 19:33:47
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Karyn Ok, enough already.
Now stop arguing semantics
Hey, we're just using teh internets for their intended purpose here ;-)
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CJaysMusic
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Re: brick wall limiter
2014/06/12 15:02:40
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This is opinion. I've never seen anywhere outside of this thread claim that there's some sort of standard cut-off point for the ratio beyond which compression ceases to be compression and becomes limiting. WOW!! i guess you never looked then, as there are many examples: You should have googled and did a little research before saying such statements. This is From WIKILimiting: Limiting and clipping compared. Note that clipping introduces a large amount of distortion whereas limiting only introduces a small amount while keeping the signal within the threshold. Compression and limiting are not different in process but in degree and perceived effect. A limiter is a compressor with a high ratio and, generally, a fast attack time. Most engineers consider compression with ratio of 10:1 or more as limiting Here a link - http://thedawstudio.com/Tips/Limiter.html and it says "A limiter is basically a compressor on steroids. Once the compression ratio goes above 10:1 on a compressor you have limiting http://www.mediacollege.c...io/processing/limiter/ http://ethanwiner.com/compressors.htmlEthen winer says its greater than 5:1 in this link. HUM????? http://www.rolandus.com/support/knowledge_base/view/22627646 and it says "A compressor and a limiter are basically the same thing, except that a compressor uses a ratio of less than 10:1 and a limiter uses 10:1 or higher. With its higher ratio, a limiters threshold is like a brick wall that the signal will not be able to exceed." This is from Sound On Sound - http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun99/articles/mixcomp.htm"To start off with, let's consider the simplest kind of compression - the limiter. A limiter is just a compressor with a very high ratio (10:1 or more) I can google and insert hundreds of links saying 10;1 and greater is limiting. I laos can quote many books written form 1964 to present that say the same. CJ
post edited by CJaysMusic - 2014/06/12 15:09:06
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Kylotan
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Re: brick wall limiter
2014/06/12 17:08:54
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You do realise that finding a bunch of links that say 10:1 doesn't make all my earlier-posted links to different ratios disappear, right? Lots of people have their own idea of where to draw the line, but there's no standard. No idea why you're flogging this dead horse so insistently.
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dubdisciple
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Re: brick wall limiter
2014/06/12 19:01:04
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I honestly cannot find an actual consensus scientific definition of Limiter that names specific ratios. Most are worded in ways like "most consider" which only lends to my earlier statement that the 10:1 definition embraced by many is more tradition than etched in stone fact. I'm fine with that cutoff because for the most part it works. At the same time I think it's downright silly to fight so vehemently over something that does not appear to have an official standard. Links have been posting that support multiple definitions. To embrace one and ignore the others basically shows one is more concerned with being right at all costs.
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ltb
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Re: brick wall limiter
2014/06/12 19:09:33
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☄ Helpfulby lawp 2014/06/13 03:21:31
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clintmartin
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Re: brick wall limiter
2014/06/12 19:44:28
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Ruben
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Re: brick wall limiter
2014/06/13 14:28:28
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CJaysMusic WOW!! i guess you never looked then, as there are many examples: You should have googled and did a little research before saying such statements. This is From WIKI That last line pretty much destroys your credibility.
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Anderton
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Re: brick wall limiter
2014/06/13 23:41:02
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☄ Helpfulby Karyn 2014/06/14 20:37:06
The real problem isn't the definition or lack thereof, it's that there is no standards committee in the music industry to define terms. The back-and-forth in this thread is just one example why it's a problem. Of course in reality, whatever you call an amplifier's input/output relationship doesn't matter, the sonic results are what matter. However, when trying to discuss something and use terms, the lack of standardized terminology makes teaching or knowledge transfers difficult. More manufacturers are simply calling these kinds of devices "dynamics processors" as several of them can combine elements of expansion, compression, and limiting within a single transfer function. If I became the Music Industry Language Police tomorrow, here's how I'd define the difference. Limiter: The ratio of input to output remains linear at 1:1 up to a certain threshold. Above that threshold, the ratio of input to output becomes infinity to 1. Compressor: The ratio of input to output remains linear at 1:1 up to a certain threshold. Above that threshold, the ratio of input to output increases based on the compression ratio and knee characteristics. If the ratio reaches infinity to 1, the signal is then considered to be limited.
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mettelus
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Re: brick wall limiter
2014/06/22 23:37:47
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LOL... I finally logged in from a computer so noticed these latest posts. Please also realize that the "definition" came from the analog world. In the analog world 10:1 was a massive achievement... In the digital world, a "limiter" can be as simple as comparing output (calculated) to output max (defined by user) and setting the output accordingly (and instantaneously). The knee on a digital compressor/limiter can be defined however a programmer chooses, but in the analog realm it is defined by the hardware involved. In many ways, we have been totally jaded and lost touch with where "definitions" evolved and seem to have lost appreciation for what we have at times. Digital processing allows for infinite FXs to be added to a signal chain without signal loss, yet we tend to complain (incessantly) about it.
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WallyG
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Re: brick wall limiter
2014/06/24 11:53:47
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Karyn ...A limiter will prevent the output from rising regardless of how high the input goes above the threshold level. A slow acting limiter will let peaks through while keeping the average level constant. A fast acting limiter will also limit the peaks. THIS is a brick wall limiter. It let's nothing go higher than the threshold level...
Now THIS is a brick wall limiter. Letting the peaks try to go above 0dBFS! No attack times to worry about, no finite gain reduction or signal propagation delays to deal with. (Not recommended though...) Actually with very high compression ratios, you're sort of doing the same thing. Instead of limiting the signal compliance level to the inherent "all ones", the new compliance number is a function of the "threshold". (Assuming fast attack, hard knee, and high compression). The result of course is distortion. Walt
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