brick wall limiter

My understanding is that the term Brickwall Limiting means that once the signal hits the threshold it is stopped dead right there and the limiter does not allow it to exceed that threshold. A compressor allows it to go above the threshold to varying degrees based on the ratio.
 
A good plug in in Sonar to see this in action is the Sonitus Compress. You set it to it's extreme and you'll see the graph show a straight line at the top indicating nothing is being let through above that level (and I think the interface actually changes to say Limiter somewhere).
 
And in Sonar X3 Producer you get the Blue Tubes Brickwall Limiter. It's pretty nice. There is also the Boost 11 limiter (I think it is still included) but it is harsher sounding to my ears.
 
The one that most people seem to like and I agree now that I own it is the Cakewalk Concrete Limiter but you have to buy that separately. You just missed a sale on it.
 
Cheers.

Karyn
I always thought brickwall limiter was a bit of an oxymoron.
 
It either limits, or it doesn't... 
 
A brickwall compressor is...  a limiter.

Yeah... once I learned about the definitions/functions of the two tools I thought the same thing. Probably just something that slipped into the lexicon from people mashing Brickwall Compressor (which is a redundant/misleading term as far as I can tell because it is no longer a compressor... it's a limiter) in with Limiter. Thus brickwall limiter.
 
Werds r hard. :-/

You can set any limiter worth its salt to a brickwall setting.
A limiter with a ratio of 12:1 and a thrshold -10dB, an attack of 200 msecs, soft knee & a release of 1000msecs is not a brick wall limiter. Because with those settings, peaks will get across the threshold setting. Now when you set it according, then it can become a brickwall limiter
 
Cj

CJaysMusic
You can set any limiter worth its salt to a brickwall setting.
A limiter with a ratio of 12:1 and a thrshold -10dB, an attack of 200 msecs, soft knee & a release of 1000msecs is not a brick wall limiter. Because with those settings, peaks will get across the threshold setting. Now when you set it according, then it can become a brickwall limiter
 
Cj

But isn't what you describe actually a compressor? If not then what would be the distinction?
 
Seriously, this is something that has confused the heck out of me for a while and I thought I had it figured out... however if a limiter CAN allow some noise above the threshold how is that different than a compressor? Or is this one of those interchangeable terminology things?

...wicked
I think the Concrete Limiter might be the most useful thing I've ever bought from Cakewalk, aside from SONAR itself. 

+1 Wish they would do a VST3 version.

But isn't what you describe actually a compressor

No!!! A compressor has a ratio of less than 10:1.  My example said the ratio was 12:1. This is greater than 10:1, so that would be limiting, not compression
 
Compression stops when the ratio is higher than 10:1 and limiting starts.
 

And then you have a Maximizer. which brickwall limits cleanly and then you got a Clipper that softens the peaks LOL
 
You have a compressor and above 10 or 20:1 you have a limiter.
Brickwall limiter could be called a Maximizer and a Clipper a Leveling Amp.
 
Different designs overlap. 
 
 

CJaysMusic

But isn't what you describe actually a compressor

No!!! A compressor has a ratio of less than 10:1.  

Please post the source of your statement. 
 
 
 
Compressor
When the input reaches the threshold level the output gain is reduced by an amount set by the reduction ratio control. Some units have fixed choices 2:1  4:1  10:1  20:1 etc.  others are continuously variable from 1:1 (no effect) to infinity:1 (limiting*)
The speed with which the output gain changes is generally "slow" by comparison to the waveform being processed, more closely following a time shifted average of the waveform amplitude. (RMS)
The slow attack will let through the initial transient peak of percussive sounds before the gain reduction takes effect, then the slow release reduces the overall volume of any following waveform. The slow change in output gain is akin to "riding the level" with a fader and as such there should be no perceptable distortion to the signal.
The "normal" mode of operation would be to have the threshold level set such that the compressor is actively controlling the signal most of the time.
*see exceptions
 
Limiter
A limiter controls the output with a variable gain stage just like a compressor, however the attack and release times are so fast it follows the specific value of the input waveform, not it's average value.
Once the value of the waveform exceeds the threshold level the limiter applies all gain reduction necessary to prevent (limit) the output from going any higher.   In the digital domain that we now work in where all signals are processed by pure math, this would result in perfectly flat tops with sharp edges to all the waveform that reaches the threshold level.  This is what a limiter does.
In reality it sounds absolutely horrid!!  so the attack/release times are slowed down just a fraction (micro seconds) to round off the edges and smooth out the gain changes enough to reduce the resulting distortion to a more musical, hopefully inaudible, level.  The way the gain reduction is smoothed is the main difference between different brands/models of limiters.
Most importantly, because the limiter ONLY affects the peaks of the waveform, it does not affect the overall volume.  As the input volume is increased the perceived output volume will continue to increase, at the cost of higher perceived distortion.
The "normal" mode of operation would be to have the threshold level set such that the limiter is NOT controlling the signal most of the time.
 
 
 
There are obvious exceptions to the "standard" way to use compressors/limiters, which is where most of the arguments start as to what is actually being used to do what...
eg. A compressor set to infinity:1 is working like a limiter, but it is not limiting. Transients will still get through and produce pops and clicks if they cause digital overs...
eg. A limiter will specifically clip transients, but pushed hard enough will affect the rest of the waveform apparently like a compressor, but it's not compressing the entire waveform, it's clipping the tops off...
 
 
YMMV  YCMV  YLW
 
 
(your mileage may vary, your compressor may vary,  your limiter won't)

For examples of brick wall limiting simply send off your track to a few cowboys who claim to be great at mastering and look at the final waveforms in something like audacity where the peaks are so truncated it's a total disaster. Then watch the band all agree about how much better it sounds and how they beat the loudness war (no bitterness here hoho!) :)

CJaysMusic
It is this simple:
A ratio of less than 10:1 = compression
A Ratio of 10:1 or Greater = Limiting
 
This is the difference between compression and limiting.

I'm sorry CJ old friend, but that is a silly and imprecise definition IMO! 
 
For example, I could easily compress a very dynamic or sloppily played bass guitar track with a ratio of 10 or 12 to one in order to squeeze it into submission (low dynamic range). With plenty of non-transient action going on above the "knee", I would never call that approach "limiting". 
 
If I wanted to "limit" that same track, I'd set the threshold so that only transients would be caught. The result would be a politer sounding track but it wouldn't kill (or rectify) the dynamic range to the same extent, since only the transients would go above the "knee".
 
The difference is in the application, not in the numbers!

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jun07/articles/qa0607_5.htm
 
http://www.sweetwater.com...essor-limiter-leveler/
 
The articles have explanations.  I would add that a brick wall limiter will basically provide a hard stop for any transients above the threshold.
 
 

I think missing the recent Memorial Weekend sale when the CL was $20 would really vex you.

Beepster

Westside Steve
I just noticed cake put a bunch of plugs on sale and all of them at the discounted price except the concrete limiter. I'm assuming they did that just to vex me.
:(
WSS

The Concrete Limiter was on sale for $20 last month. That will probably only vex you more.
 
I'm sorry... but I've been there. :-/

Well at least I still have time to get my bet in for the Triple Crown.
WSS

There are quite a few freebie options. W1 isnice and compuyerbmusic gave a way a version of tonebooster barricade that I good as well

I second Elephant though I nearly prefer the older version for simplicity.
It has too much stuff going on but my fault as had little time learning it.
Not as intuitive as earlier versions.
It is about the cleanest and is definitely a weapon to 
win the loudness war with.
I like Boost or Event Horizon on tracks when taming the odd peak or two.
EH has a soft knee.
Boost has a waveguide which can be handy for fine settings.