Electronic Music: Sonar 8.5 or Ableton Live 8?

anybody?

Anubis


Without a doubt, Ableton Live 8. The flexible routing possibilities leave Sonar in the dust.

I don't really know Live, but you can explain in a little more detail what you mean by "Flexible routing"?   What is an example of its flexible routing that Sonar can't or doesn't do?

Thanks.

Ableton Live is an app that has its roots in DJ sequencing / mixing and is quite unlike any other DAW software (mainly because it didn't start out as a DAW, it started life as a live use DJ app.) It takes turntable style mixing to the next level and beyond. It does things that no other DAW software can do; drop outs, stuttering, buzzing, extreme aliasing, scrambling, granulating and more, and it does it all on the fly while you audition the next track ready to blend in to the mix, while you work on the next track (live or monitored) bending, morphing and arpeggiating as you go.

It's also grow into a very easy to use, low resource using DAW app that can do everything on one screen with many custom made control surfaces that make it even easier and flexible to use.

If you are just into 'studio style' multi tracking it is probably not for you. If you want to perform unique live music projects on the fly, creating and blending new sounds, as you play, it's about your only choice.

ba_midi

Anubis


Without a doubt, Ableton Live 8. The flexible routing possibilities leave Sonar in the dust.

I don't really know Live, but you can explain in a little more detail what you mean by "Flexible routing"?   What is an example of its flexible routing that Sonar can't or doesn't do?

Thanks.

Easy. Insert Stylus RMX(or a Reaktor ensemble, etc.) and try to capture it's audio output by routing said audio into any other audio track in Sonar... in real time! No can do, the R disappears.. For some reason Sonar will not let you arm the destination track for recording. Yeah you can "bounce" a static midi track down to audio, once it's been recorded, but it's not the same as being able to "play" all the parameters of a VSTi some of which may not otherwise be automatable.

Next, try to route the output of an Fx send in Sonar into an audio track. Can't do that either.

And then there's Live's Session view, but that's a whole 'nother universe. All these things have been discussed here before so I'm not gonna beat a dead horse. In a nutshell, Ableton Live is itself an instrument not just a mere linear tool for traditional recording. For that however, Sonar is a fine tool.

Easy. Insert Stylus RMX(or a Reaktor ensemble, etc.) and try to capture it's audio output by routing said audio into any other audio track in Sonar... in real time! No can do, the R disappears.. For some reason Sonar will not let you arm the destination track for recording. Yeah you can "bounce" a static midi track down to audio, once it's been recorded, but it's not the same as being able to "play" all the parameters of a VSTi some of which may not otherwise be automatable.

Next, try to route the output of an Fx send in Sonar into an audio track. Can't do that either. And then there's Live's Session view, but that's a whole 'nother universe. All these things have been discussed here before so I'm not gonna beat a dead horse. In a nutshell, Ableton Live is itself an instrument not just a mere linear tool for traditional recording. For that however, Sonar is a fine tool.

Ha, well I've actually  bumped into that Reaktor wall a few times in Sonar, but, as you somewhat point out, there are workarounds *if you're not doing it live*.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Route the output of an FX send" -- if I understand what I THINK you're saying, it can be done, albeit not easily.

But more importantly, perhaps, is that you're pointing out some of the differences - which is what I was hoping to find out/hear.

I do agree that Sonar is more of a linear approach (even with the Matrix, which I think has a way to go to win me over).   And, in that regard I'm very happy with it.
But I guess I should at least take a deeper look at Live JUST in case there are some other fun things I could be doing.

I appreciate your taking the time to explain what you did.

Thanks.

I would go as  far as to call the GUI ugly.

There are things it doesn't do as well as Sonar, and some of them are big limitations. No floating view multi monitor support is a big one. It's routing is better in some ways and odd in others. I like it for writing a lot. I struggle sometimes mixing with it. I prefer Sonar by far for mixing.

The big thing about Live is that I found myself having fun again.

Uh, you can record real time vst action in Sonar - use Live Bounce.

Anubis

vespesian


Uh, you can record real time vst action in Sonar - use Live Bounce.

Uh, no you can't. In Sonar there must be midi data in the VST's track or else the Edit- Bounce to Track(s) menu option is grayed out. So there is no way to record a soft synth's audio out put to another audio track "on-the-fly".

 
That's right.  The only thing Live bounce does is allows you to "play through" a track which is of limited value.
 

This is a crucial creative feature when using many of the powerful "romplers" available today which are a crucial part of electronic music.

I can see that being crucial in a live setting,  but I would like to see this functionality in Sonar 9 or whatever the next version will be called, regardless.
 
There are a number of areas that I think Sonar would benefit from if they just got themselves a little more focused on the creative trends and offered real solutions in those areas.
 
Again I point to the Matrix which has a lot of "potential" but became so useless because it lacked some of the functionality everyone seemed to want.  There were no "per cell" volume and pan controls.   I think that was a mistake not to include, even for a "version 1" of the Matrix.  
 
At first I was very excited because of the P5 Matrix.  Then, when the Matrix came out, I was very disappointed.    Cakewalk had a chance to grab some market share I think, but I doubt they did.
 
I hardly see anyone even mention the Matrix even on these Sonar Forums.  That is interesting in itself.
 
But I'd rather see Cakewalk turn up the effort on "today's tools" (to be corny) because in so many other ways Sonar is a great tool anyway.    Time will tell what they plan.
 
But in the meanwhile, I do want to take another look at Live.  I'm already looking at Reaper, though so far, I'm not as impressed as some others I've heard from.
 

 

without any effort on the user's part whatsoever.

 
Ha, and therein lies a problem in general for any software ;)
 
Example:  "I just bought this rocket ship for lots of money, and I put a Realtek Soundcard in it.  Now it won't fly.  Besides I don't know how to turn this thing on."
 

Sonar for real studio work. Live is good for studio too, but sonar is way better.

Live for live shows for sure. Ive done Live shows with my boy Rico Belled runnign ableton- it is the best software in the world for live music.

Anubis

vespesian


Uh, you can record real time vst action in Sonar - use Live Bounce.

Uh, no you can't. In Sonar there must be midi data in the VST's track or else the Edit- Bounce to Track(s) menu option is grayed out. So there is no way to record a soft synth's audio out put to another audio track "on-the-fly".


This is a crucial creative feature when using many of the powerful "romplers" available today which are a crucial part of electronic music.

Ok. I get it now.

djjhart@aol.com


I have live 8, I must say Gui is horrible ,That said, I have to admit working with loops is pretty nifty, Using the wrap feature .. so Nice, You can just pull the loop non of those annoying Transients  .. Audio Snap Eww.. compare to the wrap, Matrix view No way<---(useless,Imo)  .. Live has dialog boxs where you can work in,So the Workflow is pretty awesome, on a side note Im using my Fw 1884, and I can play a loop non stop hit the pause/stop button, and I have not heard any pops or clicks  while using abelton, using the same board with sonar I still get slight pops and clicks not that bad since I bought a new firewire card, but I still get some unwanted noise.. Also Im using Live on my Mac and sonar on my Pc.. Ok beside that..  I do say you can make any music with any program,depends on you, and not the program. Live does have roots back to a dj. But I still prefer NI Traktor Pro for djing.. Routing capabilities, I find Sonar to be amazing, although I'm not as proficient with Live as I am with Sonar. SO i can't test to Live's ability to route live, as I can see no reason to patch live, but ok..  I will say I have changed my outlook about live, It really is a great Daw, If you like to work with loops, Live is pretty darn good for that. Also the sampler in Live Is Awesome... Take a look at the video's you will be amazed. A sampler like Live's sampler is a definite for Sonar.  

FWIW, John, I have today downloaded the Live 8 demo/trial.  I hope to find some time to get into it a bit, out of curiosity if nothing else.
 
But I watched a few of the videos for it, and while it's "workflow" has some niceities, many of the things I saw done in those videos I can do similarly in Sonar.    I'm sure there are differences and benefits (in both hosts), so I am going to take a serious look at Live 8.
 
I'm also somewhat hoping Sonar 9 (or whatever they call the next major release) will take a huge leap forward with respect to "how" modern music is being made.
 
Sonar excels in some areas, I think we would all agree.  Audio is one.  MIDI is strong (for me at least).  But workflow could use some tweaks.  The MATRIX is one area that has the potential to add a HUGE leap forward IF they stop doing the 'half-baked' versions (in my opinion).
 
If they get the Matrix really strong, it would seem to be a good candidate for what is called "Session View" in Live 8 - but only if they don't get chinzy about features in the next version.
 
I really think they (CW) made a big mistake not including "per cell" controls in the Matrix.  It'll be interesting to see if they come with a really strong update on this -- OR if they let it go by the wayside (can we say "Beatscape"!).
 
Anyway - I'll let ya'll know if I find time to get into Live 8 and what my thoughts are.
 
 

One thing I do like is Live's timeline it seems like you program your tracks alot faster..its sorta boxy, which makes it easy if you work with clips.. But theres many things I hate .. Sonar by far feels 10 x's more professional, and you can do everything that live can do and more, But Sonars workflow needs to be improved,AS we say... Lets take a look at drop zone, beatscape, audio snap and the matrix, 4 different programs that could be streamlined into one awesome sampler, capable of playing back right in the track view, all is needed is a dialog box near the bus lane, You preview your sample , double click it inserted in the track, as it does now . click the a box near the bus lane, and then one program opens , which allows you to tweak the sample, no importing the sample into a program , it already in the track view ready for a tweak, with the box open, and as you click another sample on a different track , it parameters show up in the same box, go back click the other track and there's it relevant parameters..you get the picture.. This would be such a time savor...

djjhart@aol.com


THats not a good start..  Funny thing is I had live installed on my mac I didnt use it for awhile , and I couldnt find it , I had to reinstall it , It disappeared on me too...computers are have a mind of there own..

Well, the story got worse in my case.  After I finally got Live to boot, and checked out a few of its options, interface, etc, I decided to put it to bed for now and get some work done in Sonar.

But, out of habit, I rebooted first.  I do so because many installers are ill-behaved (especially for demo versions).

It took me 3 times to get my system to boot up normally again.   So I deleted everything I could find of the LIVE install, rebooted - and no problem after that.

This is not a good start indeed.  And, with time constraints what they are, I'm not sure I want to revisit Live 8.1.3 again for awhile.

ba_midi

djjhart@aol.com


THats not a good start..  Funny thing is I had live installed on my mac I didnt use it for awhile , and I couldnt find it , I had to reinstall it , It disappeared on me too...computers are have a mind of there own..

Well, the story got worse in my case.  After I finally got Live to boot, and checked out a few of its options, interface, etc, I decided to put it to bed for now and get some work done in Sonar.

But, out of habit, I rebooted first.  I do so because many installers are ill-behaved (especially for demo versions).

It took me 3 times to get my system to boot up normally again.   So I deleted everything I could find of the LIVE install, rebooted - and no problem after that.

This is not a good start indeed.  And, with time constraints what they are, I'm not sure I want to revisit Live 8.1.3 again for awhile.

Yikes, sorry to hear that! I have Live installed along side Sonar and Cubase with no problems. But on the other hand, I'm still running Live 7... haven't had the chance to upgrade yet so maybe there's something problematic with the installer. Hope it gets resolved for you. Live really is an extraordinary creative tool.