Answered<Resolved> Panning mono tracks Not working X3e

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Guitarmech111
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2014/03/23 10:36:45 (permalink)

<Resolved> Panning mono tracks Not working X3e

I have to VOX tracks that are mono. The track settings show mono interleave.
 
I have them going to a stereo buss call VOX which is a stereo interleave.
 
When I pan the mono tracks, I do not get a left or right separation. I only get a lessening of audio. The VOX buss will pan left and right.
 
Any thoughts why the 2 mono tracks will not pan? I want to spread out the vox and not put them bot on the same place. 
post edited by Guitarmech111 - 2014/03/24 18:52:13

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
Joyful Noise Productions
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Guitarmech111
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 10:45:52 (permalink)
This works as expected in 8.5 btw. Each of the mono tracks pan left and right When assigned to the VOX stereo buss. No FX are assigned to the buss or mono tracks.

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
Joyful Noise Productions
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John
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 10:49:50 (permalink)
Have you changed your pan laws? 

Best
John
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Guitarmech111
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 11:00:34 (permalink)
Not intentionally. Still at default.
 
According to the help file, the default should be the same as 8.5.2 and greater. I have 8.5.3 and the project works as I expect it to. X3e will not pan left or right in this project.

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
Joyful Noise Productions
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Guitarmech111
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 11:11:41 (permalink)
Thanks for your reply John.  
I opened the project in 8.5.3 and saved it. It now opens and works as expected in X3.  Really irritates me that I have to do that type of stuff to get X3 to work as expected. I am glad that I can move along with my project.
 
Little crap like this takes 20 minutes here and there which could be spent finishing up tasks in SONAR. I know no software is perfect, but it still doesn't stop me from wanting to use a product and expect it to work like it should.
 

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
Joyful Noise Productions
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Guitarmech111
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 12:46:48 (permalink)
I closed SONAR and reopened the project. The inability to pan the mono tracks is back.
 
If I choose the output as my direct sound card bypassing the VOX bus or master in the project, I can pan as expected. Reassigning the tracks back to the VOX or Master buss quiesce the ability to pan these mono tracks.
 
Really irritating now...

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
Joyful Noise Productions
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dlion16
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 14:52:08 (permalink)
i sometimes get busses that go bad, no longer work as expected. delete it and make a new one. make presets of any pc or fc settings.

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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 14:55:28 (permalink)
Any FX on the vox and/or master busses? If so, try deleting them one at a time and see if your panning comes back. Every time this has happened to me it's turned out to be a mono effect inadvertently inserted into the fx bin.


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Guitarmech111
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 15:04:08 (permalink)
good idea about deleting the busses. Hadn't tried that. I did disable to FX on the busses and tracks too. I did not delete them though. There was no differences. 
 
Thanks for the suggestion guys. I am really frustrated right now and need to enjoy the rest of the day not fighting SONAR. :)

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
Joyful Noise Productions
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Guitarmech111
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 15:50:02 (permalink)
I decided to try and delete the busses as suggested. No change. I even deleted the plugins with same results.
 
thx for trying guys...

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
Joyful Noise Productions
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 16:52:49 (permalink)
First, it is absolutely 100% possible to take mono tracks, feed them into a stereo bus, and pan the each mono sound wherever you want in the stereo field. You can do this whether you're using a Send to a bus (use the Send Pan control), or directing the track output to the bus (use the track Pan control. If using a send bus, you have to make sure the Pre/Post settings work correctly with the track fader setting. For example, if you want Pan to be determined solely by the Send Pan control, you'll want either the Send set to Pre and the track fader down, or if the Send is set to Post, then you can set the track output to "none" and accomplish the same thing while still be able to use the track fader to control level.
 
There are multiple ways to mess up the routing to give the appearance of what you describe. The track output and send might be active at the same time. You may have hit the phase button by mistake instead of the interleave and now it's not visible, or the pre and post send and track controls may not be in sync.

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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 16:54:59 (permalink)
I think I may have found what is going on.
 
It looks like the audio clips have envelopes in the clips that the X series of SONAR has not been able to place in their own envelope lane.
 
I deleted the existing pan envelope in the track envelope lane and the problem did not go away. I was looking closer at the clips with my tired old eyes and noticed that each of the clips have a PAN envelope. The X series will not let me edit or delete those envelopes. I think that is the root of my problem with PAN issues I am having.

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
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scook
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 16:58:33 (permalink)
Isn't there an option for "Clip Automation" in the track edit filter?
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Guitarmech111
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 17:07:12 (permalink)
That was indeed a good catch. I was able to select that automation option and delete the envelopes but there is still something wrong that I am not able to find out.
 
Here is a screenshot of playback with this track fully panned left. Notice the meters, they do not represent a full left pan and it sounds that way too.

http://joyfulnoiseproductions.org/pan.jpg
 


Peace,
Conley Shepherd
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Anderton
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 17:24:08 (permalink)
The screen shot does not contain enough information. I still don't know if other sends are in play, the channel output, etc. I think you may not fully understand signal flow within the mixer, this might be helpful: http://www.cakewalk.com/Documentation/default.aspx?Doc=Music%20Creator%206%20Touch&Lang=JP&Req=Mixing.07.html
 

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Guitarmech111
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 17:36:51 (permalink)
I fully understand I think Craig. I believe I put a good picture up there. I guess the guitar buss is missing. I have zero sends on the track, as shown. And zero sends in the guitar bus. That should not come into play since the track is hard routed to my UFX and is bypassing all busses and everything else.
 
I guess what you did not see is that the meters are even, with no pan even though the pan is set hard to one side. I thought that was a pretty good representation of the issue.

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
Joyful Noise Productions
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scook
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 17:52:14 (permalink)
In the image above, the track output is not set to a bus, it appears to be set hardware output
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Guitarmech111
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 17:55:25 (permalink)
That is what I stated above as hard routed to my UFX.  ;)

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Conley Shepherd
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scook
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 17:59:15 (permalink)
I was confused by the thread title. So this has nothing to do with routing mono tracks to buses anymore?
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Guitarmech111
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 18:01:54 (permalink)
It does to some sort. I was showing that it looks to be track related now. I can change the title to state Track won't PAN correctly. That would be more accurate.
 
The issue is also replicated in my guitar track panning too. That is my biggest frustration right now.

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
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scook
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 18:03:21 (permalink)
Have you tried to reproduce the issue in a new project? I am guessing this project was not started in X3.
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Anderton
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 18:14:40 (permalink)
I only way I can reproduce what you're seeing here is if I assign the track output to a mono hardware interface output (either left or right) AND the panpot is panned to the same output (e.g., the left interface out is selected, and the panpot is panned left). Then, I THINK the sound is being panned by the panpot because it visually matches what I'm hearing, but in reality it's being "hardware-panned" by virtue of going to the mono hardware bus that is assigned to left. Yet the clip is still playing back in mono as far as Sonar is concerned, and therefore, there is the same level in the meter's left and right channels.
 
Other than that, I give up - can't reproduce. But it's looking more and more like there's something going on with the RME being treated as all mono outs that is the cause of some disconnect between Sonar and the TotalMix software.

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Guitarmech111
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/23 18:28:18 (permalink)
Thanks for trying Craig. The above pic is showing a stereo output port.
 
I took the audio track and imported it into a new X3 project and it panned as expected. I don't think it is the RME connection to SONAR. I think it is an issue with SONAR importing older projects. Something got hosed in this project or wav file.

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
Joyful Noise Productions
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/24 08:25:05 (permalink)
I dont think in this case its a problem opening old projects unless your project was corrupted to start with. Most likely it is either a routing problem or there is a simple explanation based on signal flow. Its difficult for people to guess what the problem might be without seeing the actual project and reproing it. The best way to ask for help in these cases is to post a link to the project.
Signal flow with pan can be complex when you add different track effects/clip effects, prochannel fx, stereo/mono clips, pan envelopes, offset mode etc. I'm pretty sure your problem falls into one of these buckets and despite you might think its not a SONAR bug. If loading in 8.5 was ok all that means is 8.5 stripped out all the new stuff like prochannel modules etc. Or 8.5 has a bug that doesn't expose this issue. And yes hundreds of issues that existed in  8.5 have been fixed since - its 4 years since that was relased!

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Guitarmech111
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/24 09:32:49 (permalink)
K, I will post a project.
 
Like I said a few times though, no plugs are on the track or buss(no buss involved) and a direct output from the track exhibits this issue as shown in the picture..

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
Joyful Noise Productions
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Guitarmech111
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/24 10:15:49 (permalink)
Here is the project. I opened the bundle by itself and it exhibited the pan issue I am having.
 
http://joyfulnoiseproductions.org/PAN.cwb

Peace,
Conley Shepherd
Joyful Noise Productions
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chuckebaby
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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/24 11:04:01 (permalink)
Guitarmech111
Here is the project. I opened the bundle by itself and it exhibited the pan issue I am having.
 
http://joyfulnoiseproductions.org/PAN.cwb


for anyone else that downloaded this, if downloaded as a wave file like it did for me, just change the ext, to cwb
 

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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/24 11:25:26 (permalink)
I can pan it right, but as soon as the signal is centered up it will not pan to the left.
Meaning as the pan control moves toward all left, the signal remains equal in both channels.
This remains true for both sending it to the "Master" buss, or straight out the interface.
I'll "play" with it some more later.
I have a project started in X1 that many tracks have similar problems.
When ported to X2 the pan remained whenever it was in the original project.
The pan control had no effect at all.
 
Tom

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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/24 11:31:01 (permalink)
I've just downloaded and tried on my machine that has the RME Fireface 400 hooked up and I can see the same problem but if I create a new track and move the audio it works fine.
 
Not tired on the machine that is hooked up to my UFX.

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Re: Panning mono tracks into stereo busses X3e 2014/03/24 11:35:40 (permalink)
Same here, pull it into a new track and all is fine; I inserted a "new" audio track, I did not clone the old track.
This is in the office on my FW1884; I should get out to the studio later and I'll have a go with the UFX.
 
T

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