jm24
 waste at least 10% of the screen space the zoom functions should work properly.
 
(The command/ribbon uses nearly 4 times the space of the 8.5.3 button bar. And is majorly cluttered: Clutter::  a large amount of things that are not arranged in a neat or orderly way : a crowded or disordered collection of things.  To display the most important buttons on the command/ribbon requires showing 3 times as many not-needed cluttering buttons.)

I agree with the "clutter" and wasted space comments.
It would be nice if there was a large (they're large now) medium and small option for the modules in that top bar and the bar would shrink to the size of the modules.

If I could wrap X3 in the Sonar 4 GUI but keep the multi dock, browser and PRV controller lanes I'd be totally satisfied.
 
 

Why don't just put a button on the toolbar for notes. Just click it and your notes appear when you need to check or addend them.

Guitarpima
Why don't just put a button on the toolbar for notes. Just click it and your notes appear when you need to check or addend them.

That's a good idea but honestly if the suggestion is that the minimum Take Lanes height is because people NEED to see the notes section... well that is no reason to restrict height and honestly as a heavy TL notes section user just silly. If I need to see my notes I can drag the lane out. I need my lanes smaller more often than I need to see the notes yet cannot do it because of the restriction.
 
I can't see that as the reason for the restriction though. I think someone just thought it looked cool or something and left it coded that way without thinking and now we are stuck with it until they rewrite that piece of code.
 
But I guess it does technically look cool. It's just silly when trying to work and doesn't seem to serve any other purpose. I'm also not sure why they all need to expand simultaneously when you drag a lane out vertically. I turn Auto Track Zoom off for a reason. I don't want it on lanes.
 
So yeah... I have some problems with lanes functionality but I like lanes so much otherwise that I generally overlook them because they are minor gripes compared to having to deal with Layers or no option to view multiple takes at all.
 
Meh. I think it is still a work in progress. The comping thing this version was a huge step forward and I'd rather have that than these little fiddle faddles fixed. That's just me though.

Beepster
well that is no reason to restrict height <snip>
 
I can't see that as the reason for the restriction though. I think someone just thought it looked cool or something and left it coded that way without thinking and now we are stuck with it until they rewrite that piece of code.

Sometimes there really seems no reason at all for restrictions ...
... other than just not checking to see it's as good as it can be.

Example here:
http://forum.cakewalk.com...ew-Names-m3036173.aspx
 

Steve_Karl
 
Sometimes there really seems no reason at all for restrictions ...
... other than just not checking to see it's as good as it can be.

Example here:
http://forum.cakewalk.com...ew-Names-m3036173.aspx
 

I remember reading that thread and it was a problem I hadn't encountered and therefore never considered and is perfect example of how some things simply do not effect many users but impact others very heavily. I think many of the problems Keni has fall into this category. I've only been with the Cake way for a short time (since X1) so I was already learning everything from scratch (I came from another DAW that honestly in retrospect I never really bother to full learn anyway). I didn't have a long ingrained workflow that got disrupted (well I did but I couldn't very well expect Sonar to work like my old DAW) so it's easier for me to even get accustom to some of the drastic changes from X1 to X2 and now to X3 because IMO most of the changes were massive improvements.
 
So I am certainly sympathetic to the long time users who are used to things being a certain way for a decade or more but cannot fully understand how traumatic it has been for those users.
 
That said it seems the X series revisions for the most part were well intentioned and increased productivity for many and perhaps is a more welcoming environment for new users (I've adapted well and although I get curious about the older versions I think I'd prefer the current way of things). I see a lot of valid points (ignoring many of the truly silly ones) from the older users. Mainly in regards to customization options. There have been many times where I really wished I could get the Control Bar more to my liking or manage my Console Strips the way I like. Both of those sections in particular seem very rigid to me and definitely cost me time while working.
 
The Take Lanes height restrictions really are silly and to me it does feel like it was a great feature that got rushed out the door in X2 and now has caused a bit of "painted ourselves into a corner" type situation from a programming standpoint. I can only guess but this probably had to do with the previous corporate owners pressuring for an innovative release without really funding it or allow enough time for the boys to do their jobs. This became an immediate problem when the old school Layers users started pointing out very real backwards momentum about such things like the lack of a "Delete Empty Lanes/Layers" type option. I personally experienced broken and seemingly useless/redundant MSR buttons and odd recording behavior (in regards to Mute Previous Take) and problems with editing logic.
 
Many of those issues have been seriously corrected with X3 but in ways I personally never would have thought of. I said it initially when I first really starting learning the comping feature... it is like they hired some kind of NASA genius to come in and implement the Comping mode stuff. It totally turfed the basic functionality of the X2 take lanes while keeping it somewhat familiar and operating within the graphical layout provided. I honestly do not do not know how they did it or who conceived it but someone needs a freaking raise for that one.
 
Still the bare bones of lanes need a bit of work in regards to the obvious problem of height restrictions and to me personally how the MSR controls function (again I feel there is redundancy even though functionality has improved and it adds unnecessary confusion to the Lanes concept). Now that the Bakers seem to have their hands untied, have a seemingly renewed vigor, the X series has matured and hopefully will have proper funding and encouragement from their new corporate masters (it certainly cannot hurt that Gibby also hired one of Cake longest standing and most knowledgeable supporters on staff AND are allowing him to hang out here with us) that Lanes will see these oddities and quirks dealt with.
 
There are also forum members like CakeAlex and Jlienx organizing the effort to make sure that problems are reported and cataloged so the Bakers have a more definitive and broad based user input as opposed to scattered problem reports and forum posts or relying on the somewhat narrowly focused input of specific Alpha and Beta testing procedures.
 
aaaaand I probably just typed up a longer than necessary post but I'm nursing a twisted back so whatevs.
 
Cheers.

Hi Beepster...

Thanks... I understand what you're saying and even agree with some. It's too bad that touch screens are being pushed down our throats simply to create a business/sales marketing. Microsoft had planned to release a speaking interface as primary interface years ago and abandoned it in favor of touch which manufacturers were already making deals for... As soon as everyone is comfortable with tofu and has bought into the tech heavily, speech enabled machines will emerge with new gear demands...

There may be something to the changing ownership... I can understand that, but I also know that the programmers are users... Obviously with very different needs than mine...

The comping is a great idea, but as it has so many variables, it's hard to nail down a "proper" default operation as well as configurable tools for it... When recording whole band takes, it helps on one hand and detracts on another. Except for when I'm tracking basics, I always use sound on sound...

As to the height issues of Lanes? That was more fuel to the fire in my opinion with Lanes already taking up 100% more real estate than Layers did... And even with the cost of larger screens, it doesn't help as resolutions simply make all the widgets bigger... Not fit more on screen...

I rarely use the take comments for more than a word or three... And I could easily live without them... Part of the minimum height for Lanes is due to the "need" to expose at least two rows of buttons for each Lane... Not a good trade off for me... I rarely use the solo/mute buttons for Lanes as I prefer to simply mute/un mute clips...

Why a limit of Lane Max? That I don't get at all! And the choice to Max the track with lanes open when I try to Max a Lane? How did the programmers not get bothered when working on music?

Much of the reason we were given for the change of UI was to remove some restrictions that were not allowing some growth to the program... Only to be replaced with other restrictions that are (for me) even more troublesome... I understand that it allowed them to delve into the comping mode which can be helpful, but I need it so much less frequently than I need so many other things that I feel the cost is more than it's worth...

I use Sonar everyday to make my living and I'm involved in many kinds of productions. These are issues for me regardless of working on an EDM track, a rock band, or an audio/MIDI combination...

But enough... I can get over the changes to the new interface whether I like them or not, but some things need to work better... I'm sure the Bakers are doing all they can to achieve this... I just hope that somehow my needs get accommodated along the way.

I have no problem learning new methods of working... I do it often as I have occasional reasons to work with other DAW softwares... And the changed controls and commands get learned... But some of these issues are not a matter of this, but a matter of basic UI abilities and settings... I know it's a work in progress as are all softwares. What's frustrating is losing some basic abilities, not ways of doing them, but the ability itself! I used to be able to see more on screen of what I need to work with... Now I can't no matter how I work... I believe they will fix much of this, but now years down the road with none of our lives getting longer as we go...

Among other things, I release my own solo albums every two years... And I use whichever Sonar version is current, so I continue to do my own work as well as my clients regardless of the changes... But my clients were a lot happier without my screaming so often... I rarely did so in the pre-X versions, but it's been non-stop since... One issue after another...

I have no plan to change software... I have confidence that things will change and hope they change for the better... It would only be a similar battle with the limitations of any of the other softwares...

Keni

Keni
Hi Beepster...

Thanks... I understand what you're saying and even agree with some. It's too bad that touch screens are being pushed down our throats simply to create a business/sales marketing. Microsoft had planned to release a speaking interface as primary interface years ago and abandoned it in favor of touch which manufacturers were already making deals for... As soon as everyone is comfortable with tofu and has bought into the tech heavily, speech enabled machines will emerge with new gear demands...

 
The success of smart phones and the iPad speak volumes about consumer demand for touch. Personally, I've liked touch with Sonar when I've been able to use it because it allows me to be "two-handed" in a way that a QWERTY keyboard and mouse, which were never really designed for piloting a DAW, don't allow. Unfortunately, to do it full-time I'd need to upgrade to 8.1...I'm seriously considering just waiting until 9 comes out.

Anderton

Keni
Hi Beepster...

Thanks... I understand what you're saying and even agree with some. It's too bad that touch screens are being pushed down our throats simply to create a business/sales marketing. Microsoft had planned to release a speaking interface as primary interface years ago and abandoned it in favor of touch which manufacturers were already making deals for... As soon as everyone is comfortable with tofu and has bought into the tech heavily, speech enabled machines will emerge with new gear demands...

 
The success of smart phones and the iPad speak volumes about consumer demand for touch. Personally, I've liked touch with Sonar when I've been able to use it because it allows me to be "two-handed" in a way that a QWERTY keyboard and mouse, which were never really designed for piloting a DAW, don't allow. Unfortunately, to do it full-time I'd need to upgrade to 8.1...I'm seriously considering just waiting until 9 comes out.

Hi Craig...
 
Yes... I understand your info, but I feel that as people are getting used to SIRI and such, touch will be very secondary...
 
As to mouse/keyboard not being designed for DAWs? I think the opposite... DAWs were created knowing that keyboards and mice were the available tools and were designed for their use...
 
What exactly do you do with touch that makes it so convenient?
 
Maybe in time touch will be more useful (in my eyes), but by then speech will dominate even more...
 
Only time will tell...
 
Keni
 

I've thus far avoided the investment in the operating system and monitors that moving to touch would take, but I understand why it might be nice. After all, didn't most of us learn our craft by actually touching control boards and outboard gear? Back in the day we would have considered it to be quite awful to be forced to control mixers, tape decks, processors and amps with a mouse and a keyboard.

melmyers
I've thus far avoided the investment in the operating system and monitors that moving to touch would take, but I understand why it might be nice. After all, didn't most of us learn our craft by actually touching control boards and outboard gear? Back in the day we would have considered it to be quite awful to be forced to control mixers, tape decks, processors and amps with a mouse and a keyboard.

Very true Mel...
 
I do not deny the comfort of directly controlling an item with my hands.... That's why touch is more intuituive than using a mouse... but also far less exacting in many situations...
 
We work differently now than we did then. We used to have a number of people with each handling certain controls during a mixdown as there was no such thing as automation...
 
Now I do far more all by myself as it no longer requires being handled in real time...
 
Learning our new tools is what this is all about. Sometimes the old is better and sometimes the new.... and sometimes neither is good enough! ;-)
 
I'm all for having touch available, but I don't like it coming at the cost of losing other tools... For me, the loss of some visual items far outweighs the gains of touch... I spend far more time needing to look at the screen to understand what I need than I need to use touch to accomplish it...
 
That said, I'm really all for the future and new, improved tools... I'm hoping the Bakers are first at finding the perfect blend of abilities!
 
Keni