mettelus
Being premastered, the tracks sound good just being exported for the most part. The cymbals still dominate, and in some passages the lead guitar is being overshadowed by the rest of the mix (~1:15 area).
I think to clarify the "babbling" out of my earlier point might be better stated with, "This thread is of interest to many folks as it goes beyond the "nuts and bolts" of X3 and more into "application" of X3. Many of the threads here are more technical, and less "art" so this one attracts attention (for good reasons)."
What would be most interesting to me would be to have Danny do a simple master of this and walk us through the "how and why." (Of course that is far-fetched and presumptuous, but would help many). Actually to that same point, Craig's thread about doing a video may run down this same path (I am hoping anyway).
If I mastered it, I'd still fail. Could I make it better? Yeah, but Beeps would make it even better if the mix is handled the right way. We have compression on the entire mix making the cymbals last longer than they should and this is a no no to me.
Next, if I low passed the entire mix to try and take some of the sssssssss out, though it would make a major difference for the better, our snare drum loses all its crack as it has none as is and is very dull and boxy, our bass guitar will turn to "more felt than heard", the guitars may get too boxy.....there are just a whole slew of things that get jacked by trying to fix a bad mix. I can't uncompress regardless of what some of those tools claim they can do....and I don't have any control over the instrumentation.
So I'd not fair well here and Craig creating a video doesn't help either. As much as we all love and respect the guy for all that he has given us past and present, the benefit of a video from him would show people "you can master in Sonar" and would show others "here are are a few ways to go about it."
What that DOESN'T do for the people that shouldn't even be watching a mastering video at this point.....is it doesn't tell them "your mix needs work, stay away from mastering right now. Learn how to mix, use the tools you have and learn how to create music that doesn't need to rely on anything before you decide to dive into the mastering realm."
That would be my advice to anyone and everyone. If you can't mix a song that sounds good everywhere without attempting to master it, work on your mixing skills. My little Evergreen clip could use mastering, but it doesn't cry for it if I'm a bedroom recording guy just trying to have fun making music. In beeps case, mastering ruined his mix further and wasted more of his time. That is not a cut on beeps or anyone in his position.
What that tells us is....people are running and jumping around too fast and miss the obvious. I hear songs on the songs forum everyday that are ruined because people are just trying too hard to master them and make them loud. They are bringing in artifacts, bad distortion, clipping artifacts that may not trip off their meters, dulling of the material due to buying into these analog gizmo's that sound like @ss and other things that are just degrading music way more than people can believe.
If I shared some of my personal stuff with you guys and showed you my templates as well as the effects I use, I think you'd be pretty surprised at how little can give you an acceptable sound. Mind you, I'm NOT any great engineer nor am I getting major label quality and I'm harder on myself than you can believe. But I'm consistent and put out acceptable material whether it be on a stock Dell using a Realtek and ASIO4ALL drivers, or my full recording rig at my studio. This is where we all need to be for starters. To be able to put out acceptable material that does not have blatant errors. No one has to rival a major label. When we can say something subjective about a mix, that means the mix is good. Saying "I don't like that guitar sound" or "your drum sound is not to my liking" isn't a bad thing if the mix is presentable, see my point?
When we get into subjective verses blatantly obvious and annoying, subjective means "pass" no matter what to me. I can't stomach some of the old YES mixes. I love the guys, love their playing...but man, some of those Steve Howe guitar tones are like nails on a chalk-board with the dirtier stuff. That doesn't mean it's bad and I may be the only person alive to feel that way. It's subjective, yet sort of blatantly obvious to my sensitive ears. But that still doesn't make it bad.
Now if a majority of people all report the same thing, there is cause for investigation at all times even if you may not agree with what was said. This is when the person being critiqued may need to be taught what to listen for. Even if we can tell/show them why something may annoy us. They may not realize it...yet once they do, they learn. I had a guy for the longest time confuse high end in a guitar sound for distortion. He just didn't know that there was a difference between distortion sizzle and high end sizzle.
So anyway, I think it will always be in the best interest of this forum on the whole, to always go after the best mix possible before they consider any mastering. 9 out of 10 times, the mastering people are doing around here is killing their material. I keep on saying....when you export a song that is a finished mix, how do you even know what to do to master it? What do you do, look at a graph and try to make it look nice? This is where everyone is missing the boat with mastering.
I'm not saying it can't and shouldn't be done. I'm saying, 95% of the DIY's don't know how to tell what to master and how much to master it. If the song needed work, would you press the export button?
"Well, ok smart guy, how do YOU know what you need Danny? You listen to the same song 3000 times like the rest of us...you recorded and mixed on the same speakers....when you have that export in your hands, where do you start?"
I hate when you guys question me....grrr! LOL!!! :) The truth there is....
1. I'd most likely never master my own material that will be for sale.
2. When I master my own stuff, I do NOT listen to it on the monitors it was recorded and mixed on. You have no idea how much of a difference this can make for the better. As a matter of fact, sometimes I master at my studio if I have recorded something at my house and vice versa. The other set of monitors I master on are as good as the ones I recorded and mixed on and every bit as accurate. This is huge at determining what you may need.
3. I get my mix to the point of being so close to what I want, the little bit of eq, compression and limiting I put on my own stuff is so minimal, the only difference you might notice on one of my songs from pre to post would be a little more low end, a slight sparkle of highs and a bit more volume. I go for a neutral mix so when I master my stuff, it's like using the fine tuners on a Floyd Rose. You know....you tune a guitar with the tuning pegs as close as you can, then you lock the Floyd nut, then the fine tuners take over. That's how I look at my mixes and masters. For clients, it depends on what I hear when they send them to me. But I never use the same rack of mastering tools. I base my decisions on what they have given me.
To Beeps: in a sense, you're getting an old sound with all the high end. That's not a bad thing...but low passing cures this mix right up due to the cymbals. BUT...low passing will affect the cut of the snare and the guitars. Meaning, the snare will be too flat sounding and boxy...which is what may happen to the guitars. So my advice would be to try lowering the cymbals a bit, low pass the cymbals a bit....try working on the snare by removing some mids or adding a little high end depending on what sounds better so the snare doesn't go all boxy....low pass the guitars and they should be fine. The kick could use a little more thump, but that will depend on what you want your bass to do.
If you want a clicky kick, you can have a bass with more low end push in it. If you want a more percussive bass with a bit more high end clack, you can go with a kick that has more low end thump. You'll need to decide where you want the thump frequencies to be on those instruments. Other than that, do away with the pumping on the mix. Even though the pump isn't too bad, the compression or whatever that is...is making the cymbals resonate longer than they should. This is one of the artifacts of parallel compression over-use which makes me hate that technique so bad in the wrong hands. I'm not saying you p-comped, I'm saying this is one of the artifacts people get if they use too much of it.
Hope some of this helps....keep at it and don't be hard on yourself. We all have to learn....props to you for putting your stuff out there to create a discussion such as this. This thread alone is worth some big bucks if you look at all the info everyone has given from a consulting stand-point. Proof of how great this forum and it's members are. :)
-Danny