First of all, let's look at the  various sources of info, then we can see how they conflict:
 
#1. CWBRN-1336 - Multiple MIDI bugs, all related to VSTi MIDI output

• This is the problem report I filed on 02/24/2009 that links to this website where I explain the issue. It specifically talks about:
  • Stuck notes
  • MIDI output from a VSTi bleeding into the input of an unrelated track that is recording from an external keyboard.
  • Short ghost notes being recorded before each note recorded from an external keyboard
  • It also mentions crashes when there are multiple VSTis with Enable MIDI Output turned on. However this last point was added afterwards and I don't remember how long afterwards since this was almost 5 years ago.

 
 
#2. CWBRN-2504, Bugs related to the "Enable MIDI Output" functionality

• This one was filed on 03/22/2010 and specifically talks about crashes with multiple VSTis like Catanya with Enable MIDI Output turned on.

 
 
#3. SONAR X3b Update, Fixes and Enhancements (see here)

• Stability:
  • Resolved a crash when using direct MIDI output with multiple VST Instruments simultaneously, such as multiple instances of JamStix or Catanya (CWBRN-5781, CWBRN-2504, CWBRN-2564, CWBRN-1739)
• MIDI:
  • Resolved an issue where direct MIDI out from VST Instruments could cause hung notes (CWBRN-1336)

 
OK, so according to the X3b release notes, both the MIDI crosstalk and crashing have been fixed. I also received emails a few days ago stating that both CWBRN-1336 and CWBRN-2504 have been fixed. Since I have not been using Sonar since X1 because of these bugs, I was out of the loop and wanted get more info regarding these fixes.
 
 
#4. Next up is what Ryan Munnis wrote here:

Yesterday I closed out a CWBRN as "fixed" which notified you of it. Our Dev and QA team returned this as fixed as part of the X3b and X3c updates, I was just behind with closing out the CWBRN report.

 
So another confirmation that it is fixed in X3c.
 
 
#5. However, we also have this from Noel: 

The original crash was definitely addressed - I reproduced and fixed it myself and tested with Jamstix. This is another variant that was not in our system. It probably won't make it into X3C due to time constraints but we'll definitely do our best to address it for the next update since its an important fix. Sorry for the delay but there have been a several lot pressing issues to address before this one.

 
I'm not sure what this "another variant" is referring to here. I read the whole thread but couldn't determine what this other variant is. CWBRN-1336 and CWBRN-2504 covers a lot of variants so I'm not sure saying "it was not in our system" is correct.
 
 
#6. Then there is this from Lance Riley:

I gave Catanya a test and found settings to reproduce the crash with multiple instances that is happening.

 
So according to the above, the crashing has not been fixed in X3c.
 
 
#7. Next up, we have swamptooth saying here in response to asking whether these issues have been fixed:
 

No - not completely fixed. I see that my video comparison of reaktor midi outs in sonar and studio one has been reposted in a couple of these threads and that behavior still exists in x3c.

 
I searched for the video mentioned but I'm not sure which one he refers to. From this post I'm assuming he is talking about the MIDI crosstalk.
 
So to sum up, it seems neither the crashing nor the MIDI crosstalk have been fixed in X3c. If so, can CW please go ahead and re-open both CWBRN-1336 and CWBRN-2504? It seems like the right thing to do.
 
Can CW please clarify this issue?
 
Also, is there an X3c demo or something I can try out? I'd really like to see for myself what has been fixed and what has not.

Those threads were an interesting topic for me, so going from memory...  I believe that the crash was resolved specifically with Jamstix, and that the variant was Catanya; i.e., that there's something different about the way each plugin was causing a crash that required two different (but possibly related) fixes.
 
I don't recall whether stuck notes had come up in those discussions.
 

SteveC, that's interesting because to a host a plugin should just be a black box that supports some subset of a fixed list of features, and it either sends out MIDI events or not. So I'm not sure why a different fix would be required for different plugins. They all follow the same spec and other hosts have no problem with this.
 
Anyway if Noel is saying that he used Jamstix to test it and of Catanya "This is another variant that was not in our system", once again I have to take issue with that. I'm trying not to get negative about this but it is hard not to when I read stuff like this. CWBRN-2405 specifically talks about a crash with multiple Catanya instances. I don't know how much clearer I could have made it. That info was certainly "in the system" since 03/22/2010 already which was when I filed the problem report. Also of interest:
 

Hello, when a bug is filed it is entered into a database and will get reviewed and prioritized for fixing once its established to be a bug. From the time its logged until the time its investigated it could certainly be several months and we don't normally contact the user who logged it unless more information is required. We even mention this in the problem report form.

We appreciate the the detailed information you provided and we will investigate this in due time. Our development process goes through a phase where we are fully focussed on bug fixing and that is when issues such as these are investigated.

What is the tracking number that was assigned to this bug by the way?

Noel, July 12 2009
 

Noel,
Thank you for the response. The ref number of the bug is CWBRN-1336, and it was logged on 2/24/09.

Me, July 12 2009
 
Then in the very same thread:

I know your initial report on this was ages ago, but I wanted to confirm that I've run into identical and related issues to what you've described.  (Thanks for the thorough coverage).

In addition to the MIDI echo bug, I've been running into nasty crashes when running multiple MIDI-enabled VSTi's at the same time.  For example:

Catanya + Eloquence(now called Thesys) = Crash
Catanya + Catanya = Crash
Thesys + Thesys = Crash
JamStix + ____ = Crash
etc.

greysound, Sept 14, 2009
 
It is a bit disingenuous to claim multiple instances of Cataya to be "another variant that was not in our system".
 
So 5 years later and it still isn't fixed even though every possible attempt was made to get CW's attention regarding this. Not just that, but now the problem reports have been erroneously closed as fixed. CW can you at least re-open CWBRN-1336 and CWBRN-2504 please.

I wonder if their testers have a copy of reaktor? That would be a great one to test with since it's so popular.

I feel your pain, I've been waiting for this for a long long time. When i first discovered it I found your website and was blown away that it was documented so well.

The lack of midi routing is my number one thing with sonar. I imagine it's an extensive painful fix to implement and so it gets pushed to the side.

[Deleted naughty picture might never live it down]

BTW initial reaction ... I can totally understand this... Believe me I get it.... I mock and totally understand at the same time.
 

I suspect you have a simplistic, (though very reasonable) view of the interactions between daws and plugins.
 

SilkTone
SteveC, that's interesting because to a host a plugin should just be a black box that supports some subset of a fixed list of features, and it either sends out MIDI events or not. So I'm not sure why a different fix would be required for different plugins. They all follow the same spec and other hosts have no problem with this.
 
 

Mystic38
I suspect you have a simplistic, (though very reasonable) view of the interactions between daws and plugins.
 

 
You probably don't know this but I've been writing VST plugins for many years, and doing software development for even longer (25+ years). So my view is anything but simplistic, I just didn't want to go into technical details.
 
From a developer's point of view, the plugin is following the VST specification, and as such if it sends out MIDI notes, it is doing it within the VST specification using the buffer format as specified in that spec. Because of this, the host should not need to have different fixes for different plugins (this is what I mean with black box). If Sonar needs different fixes for different plugins in order not to crash, there are bigger problems than any of us suspected.
 
I eluded in some older threads about "spaghetti code". I'm not saying Sonar is spaghetti code, just that if it is isn't architecture in a well-defined, modular way, then this is the kind of problems you run into. You fix one thing and something else breaks. Simple bugs become difficult to fix. Complex bugs become impossible to fix. Once again not saying Sonar is this way, just observing the symptoms from the outside here...

Isn't it the case that despite there being a standard that some developers don't stick to it as strictly as others. Hence the variations in interaction between plugins in the same or different hosts.

mudgel
Isn't it the case that despite there being a standard that some developers don't stick to it as strictly as others. Hence the variations in interaction between plugins in the same or different hosts.

 
Yes that is very true. However these same plugins work fine in other DAWs so they can't be that far off.
 
I think more common is that some plugins use different parts of the spec for which the host has not been tested very well. A good example is the MIDI out feature. It is not that common (as say, audio out), which is why I don't think CW did that much testing with it. It doesn't help that CW say in their problem report instructions not to include 3rd party plugins. This makes it very difficult to impossible to file bugs of this nature because you can't reproduce it without 3rd party plugins. At the same time it makes it easy for CW to say it is buggy 3rd party plugins, which has been the standard response for many years.
 
It did take me a while to realize the bug is in Sonar and not the plugins. But while I was searching around the web back then looking for solutions to my problem, I remember finding a plugin developer's website where they stated something along the lines of "Sonar's MIDI implementation is a mess". That pretty much confirmed it for me. I looked for that website later again but could not for the life of me find it again. I should have created a link.