Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
Please don't sit here and insult our IQs and suggest we're thinking our users are idiots. This doesn't help us dig into issues together. It's extremely hard to help someone when they're insulting your IQ instead of just providing a clear set of steps of what they're doing. I noticed you didn't insult the other forum members here? Why treat Cakewalk staff any differently? Why not just reply to person you were working with and let him know you think he's mistaken versus coming here and trying to humiliate him publicly without their knowledge?
 
Perhaps it's just me, but I'm actually having a hard time understanding the steps you specifically are taking and what your expectations are. I'm not saying there's not an issue here, it's just this entire thread feels a bit ambiguous to me. What synth are you using? What exact steps are you taking? What is your routing set up like? I'd like to know the exact context to put it in for the sake of being able to understand more accurately, not to be a pain.
 
I think perhaps what we should do is start over and redefine exactly what you're doing and exactly what isn't working. Also we should stop paraphrasing what support has or hasn't said. It's a bit misleading. If there's a bug, let's bug it up.
 
Edit for typos.

Ryan, this particular issue has been around for 5+ years and some of us have been trying to get CW to see the problem for almost as long. I'm really really glad this is getting so much attention now because I got tired of being told it is user error. I've spent so much of my time on this issue and have been so frustrated by it that I eventually gave up on Sonar and moved to another DAW.
 
Part of the frustration is that every time this issue comes up, people either don't understand it and insists it is user error, or that it is a buggy plugin. Once CW finally realized there is really something wrong with Sonar's MIDI implementation, the fix for it has been set on the backburner for years. Instead CW spent time on X1 which introduced a pile of new bugs that took priority over anything else, so I realized it wasn't going to get fixed.
 
So when you ask for "clear steps", it is insulting those of us that have been talking about this bug for many many years. Let's look at what I've done to get CW's attention, then you tell me how clear steps weren't provided almost 5 years ago:

• CWBRN-1336 -Multiple MIDI bugs, all related to VSTi MIDI output (filed on 02/24/2009)
• CWBRN-2504 - Bugs related to the "Enable MIDI Output" functionality (this refers back to 1336 and gives additional info on how to reproduce it)
• CWBRN-2534 - Can't record from two MIDI keyboards at the same time 
• CWBRN-2533 - MIDI notes cut short when a different source sends notes
• Created a web page in Feb 2009 that details clear steps, including:
  • A VSTi that reproduces the issue, including source code
  • A Sonar project used to reproduce it
  • Very clear steps on how to reproduce it
• A very long email discussion with Willey Jones regarding this issue where I provide great detail on reproducing it. All I got back was empty promises that it will be fixed.
• Endless threads about this issue, usually met with arguments how this really isn't a bug, just user error. See here, here, here, here. There are more.

Yes I got really angry about this issue in many threads, but given how hard I tried to get CW to realize it has serious MIDI routing problems has been super frustrating. I eventually left for another DAW because I felt I spent too much time and money on this. As I said, I have a $99 CW credit, but even so I'm not willing to spend $1 on CW software since I always bought "the next version" hoping this bug would be fixed in that release, only to find out I've been fed yet another empty promise that it will get fixed.
 
It still amazes me that Sonar can go so many years with having such a serious MIDI routing bug that causes MIDI crosstalk and crashes. Crosstalk belongs in old analog mixing consoles, not in a "professional" DAW, especially not MIDI, holy cow!
 
So once again, it is insulting to those of us that put in all that fruitless efforts to get this issue acknowledged when you say "...instead of just providing a clear set of steps...". Clear steps have been provided for almost 5 years now.

SilkTone

Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
Please don't sit here and insult our IQs and suggest we're thinking our users are idiots. This doesn't help us dig into issues together. It's extremely hard to help someone when they're insulting your IQ instead of just providing a clear set of steps of what they're doing. I noticed you didn't insult the other forum members here? Why treat Cakewalk staff any differently? Why not just reply to person you were working with and let him know you think he's mistaken versus coming here and trying to humiliate him publicly without their knowledge?
 
Perhaps it's just me, but I'm actually having a hard time understanding the steps you specifically are taking and what your expectations are. I'm not saying there's not an issue here, it's just this entire thread feels a bit ambiguous to me. What synth are you using? What exact steps are you taking? What is your routing set up like? I'd like to know the exact context to put it in for the sake of being able to understand more accurately, not to be a pain.
 
I think perhaps what we should do is start over and redefine exactly what you're doing and exactly what isn't working. Also we should stop paraphrasing what support has or hasn't said. It's a bit misleading. If there's a bug, let's bug it up.
 
Edit for typos.

Ryan, this particular issue has been around for 5+ years and some of us have been trying to get CW to see the problem for almost as long. I'm really really glad this is getting so much attention now because I got tired of being told it is user error. I've spent so much of my time on this issue and have been so frustrated by it that I eventually gave up on Sonar and moved to another DAW.
 
Part of the frustration is that every time this issue comes up, people either don't understand it and insists it is user error, or that it is a buggy plugin. Once CW finally realized there is really something wrong with Sonar's MIDI implementation, the fix for it has been set on the backburner for years. Instead CW spent time on X1 which introduced a pile of new bugs that took priority over anything else, so I realized it wasn't going to get fixed.
 
So when you ask for "clear steps", it is insulting those of us that have been talking about this bug for many many years. Let's look at what I've done to get CW's attention, then you tell me how clear steps weren't provided almost 5 years ago:

• CWBRN-1336 -Multiple MIDI bugs, all related to VSTi MIDI output (filed on 02/24/2009)
• CWBRN-2504 - Bugs related to the "Enable MIDI Output" functionality (this refers back to 1336 and gives additional info on how to reproduce it)
• CWBRN-2534 - Can't record from two MIDI keyboards at the same time 
• CWBRN-2533 - MIDI notes cut short when a different source sends notes
• Created a web page in Feb 2009 that details clear steps, including:
  • A VSTi that reproduces the issue, including source code
  • A Sonar project used to reproduce it
  • Very clear steps on how to reproduce it
• A very long email discussion with Willey Jones regarding this issue where I provide great detail on reproducing it. All I got back was empty promises that it will be fixed.
• Endless threads about this issue, usually met with arguments how this really isn't a bug, just user error. See here, here, here, here. There are more.

Yes I got really angry about this issue in many threads, but given how hard I tried to get CW to realize it has serious MIDI routing problems has been super frustrating. I eventually left for another DAW because I felt I spent too much time and money on this. As I said, I have a $99 CW credit, but even so I'm not willing to spend $1 on CW software since I always bought "the next version" hoping this bug would be fixed in that release, only to find out I've been fed yet another empty promise that it will get fixed.
 
It still amazes me that Sonar can go so many years with having such a serious MIDI routing bug that causes MIDI crosstalk and crashes. Crosstalk belongs in old analog mixing consoles, not in a "professional" DAW, especially not MIDI, holy cow!
 
So once again, it is insulting to those of us that put in all that fruitless efforts to get this issue acknowledged when you say "...instead of just providing a clear set of steps...". Clear steps have been provided for almost 5 years now.

You're digging up and old thread and taking it out of context. You're replying to the first of my posts and not the ones following up.
 
Yesterday I closed out a CWBRN as "fixed" which notified you of it. Our Dev and QA team returned this as fixed as part of the X3b and X3c updates, I was just behind with closing out the CWBRN report.
 
The topic in this thread is not quite the same. Why don't we start a new thread about the issues you've identified on your website and let others chime in on what is and isn't working so that we don't go down the wrong path again this time.

Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]

SilkTone

Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
Please don't sit here and insult our IQs and suggest we're thinking our users are idiots. This doesn't help us dig into issues together. It's extremely hard to help someone when they're insulting your IQ instead of just providing a clear set of steps of what they're doing. I noticed you didn't insult the other forum members here? Why treat Cakewalk staff any differently? Why not just reply to person you were working with and let him know you think he's mistaken versus coming here and trying to humiliate him publicly without their knowledge?
 
Perhaps it's just me, but I'm actually having a hard time understanding the steps you specifically are taking and what your expectations are. I'm not saying there's not an issue here, it's just this entire thread feels a bit ambiguous to me. What synth are you using? What exact steps are you taking? What is your routing set up like? I'd like to know the exact context to put it in for the sake of being able to understand more accurately, not to be a pain.
 
I think perhaps what we should do is start over and redefine exactly what you're doing and exactly what isn't working. Also we should stop paraphrasing what support has or hasn't said. It's a bit misleading. If there's a bug, let's bug it up.
 
Edit for typos.

Ryan, this particular issue has been around for 5+ years and some of us have been trying to get CW to see the problem for almost as long. I'm really really glad this is getting so much attention now because I got tired of being told it is user error. I've spent so much of my time on this issue and have been so frustrated by it that I eventually gave up on Sonar and moved to another DAW.
 
Part of the frustration is that every time this issue comes up, people either don't understand it and insists it is user error, or that it is a buggy plugin. Once CW finally realized there is really something wrong with Sonar's MIDI implementation, the fix for it has been set on the backburner for years. Instead CW spent time on X1 which introduced a pile of new bugs that took priority over anything else, so I realized it wasn't going to get fixed.
 
So when you ask for "clear steps", it is insulting those of us that have been talking about this bug for many many years. Let's look at what I've done to get CW's attention, then you tell me how clear steps weren't provided almost 5 years ago:

• CWBRN-1336 -Multiple MIDI bugs, all related to VSTi MIDI output (filed on 02/24/2009)
• CWBRN-2504 - Bugs related to the "Enable MIDI Output" functionality (this refers back to 1336 and gives additional info on how to reproduce it)
• CWBRN-2534 - Can't record from two MIDI keyboards at the same time 
• CWBRN-2533 - MIDI notes cut short when a different source sends notes
• Created a web page in Feb 2009 that details clear steps, including:
  • A VSTi that reproduces the issue, including source code
  • A Sonar project used to reproduce it
  • Very clear steps on how to reproduce it
• A very long email discussion with Willey Jones regarding this issue where I provide great detail on reproducing it. All I got back was empty promises that it will be fixed.
• Endless threads about this issue, usually met with arguments how this really isn't a bug, just user error. See here, here, here, here. There are more.

Yes I got really angry about this issue in many threads, but given how hard I tried to get CW to realize it has serious MIDI routing problems has been super frustrating. I eventually left for another DAW because I felt I spent too much time and money on this. As I said, I have a $99 CW credit, but even so I'm not willing to spend $1 on CW software since I always bought "the next version" hoping this bug would be fixed in that release, only to find out I've been fed yet another empty promise that it will get fixed.
 
It still amazes me that Sonar can go so many years with having such a serious MIDI routing bug that causes MIDI crosstalk and crashes. Crosstalk belongs in old analog mixing consoles, not in a "professional" DAW, especially not MIDI, holy cow!
 
So once again, it is insulting to those of us that put in all that fruitless efforts to get this issue acknowledged when you say "...instead of just providing a clear set of steps...". Clear steps have been provided for almost 5 years now.

You're digging up and old thread and taking it out of context. You're replying to the first of my posts and not the ones following up.
 
Yesterday I closed out a CWBRN as "fixed" which notified you of it. Our Dev and QA team returned this as fixed as part of the X3b and X3c updates, I was just behind with closing out the CWBRN report.
 
The topic in this thread is not quite the same. Why don't we start a new thread about the issues you've identified on your website and let others chime in on what is and isn't working so that we don't go down the wrong path again this time.

 
Well I'm pointing out the irony of you believing the users are insulting the IQ of CW support, yet what is really happening as that CW is insulting the IQ of their own users. Why? Because 2.5 years after filing CWBRN-1336 (which includes providing the web page with painstaking details, a VSTi plugin with source code, and a Sonar project) and asking for a status update, I get this response from CW support:

Thank you for contacting Cakewalk Technical Support. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. We were unable to create the issue with the steps provided.
 
Please submit this issue to our problem reporter within the link below...
 
http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/ProblemReporter/
 
Some things to remember... 
1. Provide your instructions starting with a blank SONAR project. 
2. Please only use/reference plugins that are included with SONAR (no 3rd party plug referenced please). 
3. Include every step, even the ones you'd think to be obvious (there are many ways to get to the same results, I'd like to make sure we're both following the same workflow).
 
Thank you for choosing Cakewalk!

 
So who is more dysfunctional? CW or Sonar users?

SilkTone, it is my understanding that we resolved the cases you reported. Each CWBRN is closed as fixed. Last time we resolved a case in the context of the case you argued with us about the facts. Unfortunately at the time there were still issues that were unresolved. We had lengthy discussions about how we resolved a specific CWBRN and you were upset that it didn't resolve every issue. Keep in mind, that as we mentioned before, bug resolutions are always specific to the information contained within the report. Anyhow, we DID resolve additional issues this time around.
 
You're replying to a completely unrelated thread on a topic that has nothing to do with yours and Cakewalk's correspondence other than it just so happens to hit a similar area of the application. I asked the OP for specifics because things were resolved and specifics were needed, which if you read the rest of the thread perhaps you'll understand. It sounds to me like you're being quick to jump into an argument without actually having a conversation about whether or not the bug in your report was resolved.
 
There is actually another thread that is more in line with the issues you previously reported that might prove to be more helpful for you. This is here: http://forum.cakewalk.com/Enable-Midi-Out-VSTi-Issues-Attention-Ryan-Munnis-m2927852.aspx
 
I have no interest in arguing with you over us trying to be helpful and resolve cases. I'm not sure why this is your focus versus just talking about the program. It feels a lot like you're just shooting the messenger and picking on someone who was trying to help another customer to get some facts straight for everyone.
 
As I mentioned, if you want to have a discussion about the issues on your website it seems a new thread might be the best course of action.

Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
SilkTone, it is my understanding that we resolved the cases you reported. Each CWBRN is closed as fixed. Last time we resolved a case in the context of the case you argued with us about the facts.

 
Yes you guys fix bugs in such a timely fashion! Especially for example such minor ones where Sonar can't get basic MIDI routing right.
 
Anyway, my reply was in direct response to you saying customers are insulting CW support IQ. I was pointing out the irony, and giving an example where dealing with your support is like pulling teeth. I used to be really nice guy on these forums but dealing with that level of support quality has made me jaded and bitter.
 
And just for the record, the "MIDI Crosstalk" bug that was fixed that you elude to originated from one of the many reproduce steps I provided to show the issues with Sonar's MIDI implementation. It did turn out to be a different bug, but at the time it surely sounded like CW fixed the MIDI routing issues and I was once again duped into paying for yet another broken upgrade.

SilkTone

Ryan Munnis [Cakewalk]
SilkTone, it is my understanding that we resolved the cases you reported. Each CWBRN is closed as fixed. Last time we resolved a case in the context of the case you argued with us about the facts.

 
Yes you guys fix bugs in such a timely fashion! Especially for example such minor ones where Sonar can't get basic MIDI routing right.
 
Anyway, my reply was in direct response to you saying customers are insulting CW support IQ. I was pointing out the irony, and giving an example where dealing with your support is like pulling teeth. I used to be really nice guy on these forums but dealing with that level of support quality has made me jaded and bitter.
 
And just for the record, the "MIDI Crosstalk" bug that was fixed that you elude to originated from one of the many reproduce steps I provided to show the issues with Sonar's MIDI implementation. It did turn out to be a different bug, but it at the time it surely sounded like CW fixed the MIDI routing issues and I was once again duped into paying for yet another broken upgrade.

The sarcasm isn't exactly helpful. We fix a bug you reported and this is the response we're getting? I don't understand.
 
Quite frankly you don't know the other side of the story here and I don't really understand your point in trying to antagonize me. If you want to have a discussion on MIDI Crosstalk, start a new thread. If you just want to patronize then I'm sorry but we're done here. There is no point in having this discussion publicly any longer.
 
Sorry for anyone else reading along :/