• SONAR
  • Frustrated, Explanation and apology below. (p.6)
2013/07/30 21:04:12
wcedgar
That's right.
I'm such a hands on person that I need to see someone doing this and then be able to ask why they did what they did a certain way.
 
I really do appreciate some of you wanting to help me get to where I'm going, I'll see if I can find someone in my regional area that uses this stuff and see if I can get some private instruction.
Thanks again
2013/07/30 21:29:17
chuckebaby
wcedgar
That's right.
I'm such a hands on person that I need to see someone doing this and then be able to ask why they did what they did a certain way.
 
I really do appreciate some of you wanting to help me get to where I'm going, I'll see if I can find someone in my regional area that uses this stuff and see if I can get some private instruction.
Thanks again


your best friend is you tube right now.
cakewalk is also having a really great sale on video tutorials.
one is only like 7.99 and that explains all the vst plug ins in sonar.
it might be a little too much but that's okay, take it slow  :)
 
this video is pretty basic, explaining basic midi.
now this might not be what your looking for but youll get an idea on how things work.
I've made a few vids for beginners just starting out because I have been asked the same questions so many times I figured why not just make a tutorial.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juIu9Rlt6v8
 
ive learned quite a bit from tuts on you tube.
even some of the ideas of people who have no idea what they're talking about can sometimes inspire you to learn something new from they're mistakes.
IMO, that's learning.
 
 
and if your really serious, hang out here buddy, youll be learning stuff in no time with some of the experts that hang here..
you got some of the best replying right now.
I guess what im saying is, it doesn't matter your knowledge level, you can learn so much just reading and replying, asking questions right here.(and videos)
welcome to the family  :)
2013/07/31 00:22:27
pianodano
To the OP,
 
I wish you lived here near the Beach. I would welcome the opportunity to work with you. It appears that you have been around the block a few time also but find these new fangled methods a bit daunting. You probably already know all of this but;
 
The skilled recording engineer is part perfected craft, part art that is developed after many years and 1000's of studio hours of trial and error, experimentation and learning what works and what doesn't.  Regardless of what people say today, you are right that the console and tape imparts it's own special character into the recording. That's part of the reasons why different studios had different sounds and they were chosen by the producers for their sound and sometimes the musicians they had waiting by the phone for work. It is also why developers today spend hundreds of hours modeling those analog circuits trying to create in the digital realm what made gold in the analog and hoping they can capitalize on those sounds. They a getting closer a little bit at the time, year by year.
 
 As an aside, it's also true that part of that sound came from the room, but as the recording art form developed, engineers did every thing they could to eliminate the room sound through close micing.  Some room character was still added and in some cases utilized, as in the famous case of the exact position the mic was placed for Karen Carpenter at A&M beside the control room window to catch those reflections, but mostly the room sound was undesirable and engineers relied of the console, tape bump and outboard hardware to get the sound.
 
That console is really the big part of the magic. It was and still is almost organic. All that iron in the transformers in the input and sometimes output stages. The magic imparted by a particular console was part of what made a studio choose a particular board. It gave what BECAME the trademark sound of that place.
 
The tape recorder also imparted it's sound. There where more hits recorded on a MCI JH24 than probably anything else. It was and still is a huge sound with, in my mind, a glassy shimmer in the high end that's still unobtainable in the digital realm no matter the bit depth, sample rate or how much you pay for convertors. Certainly it was used at Muscle Shoals, Memphis American Sound Studios, and Criteria among others. Hit after hit came off those machines. It was the radio sound we are still trying to achieve.
 
The characteristic openness of and sizzle on top of a vocal recorded with a U47 or 87 is unmistakable  but mostly never even noticed by the average listener. They just know it's great. But it is a large part of what made any recording a great recording. Conversely, a RCA 44bx will make any voice sound absolutely huge, in your face right there, with no shrillness at all and fantastically open and  it's perfect for a song that calls for that sound - and especially for a nasally voice. 
 
There is to this day nothing that I am aware of that can put a vocal just on top and keep it on top like a Universal Audio LA-2a leveling amplifier. It is magic when it does what it does. And a Manley Varimu will glue a mix together it a way that cannot be described - it just does what it does perfectly.
 
Problem is, all that stuff, just as John said, was and still is, very expensive. I am nobody at all for sure but having spent most of a adult life in recording studios  (I am old) and carefully studying, analyzing and listening while doing my music thing, I have seen both sides. Analog is amazing. Digital is amazing and it is getting better all the time. Except for my home, I have also spent most nearly every dollar I have ever earned trying to capture that elusive sound. It sure is a hard road to hoe, to use a old saying.
 
If I were really looking for the character that is added by that well chosen gear in analog the realm while remaining in the digital, I would start by investing in UA plugs. Those folks really care about modeling and they have a unmatched heritage to live up to. I have nearly all their stuff and it is astounding how good it really is. But even with those, I still keep a real UA-LA-2a on a vocal track, a real Symetrix 525 on the stereo drum channels and the list goes on. There are just some thing that hardware does better.
 
For quite sometime I used a Tascam digital mixer with Sonar. I adored the audiophile quality I was obtaining although it had that characteristically  annoying (to me in a minor sense) high end shrillness, but it lacked character. None. What you put in, you got out. So when Malcom Toft announced around 6 or 7 years back that he was going to build a smaller/less expensive  version of the Trident console, I leapt at the opportunity to own one. I can't even begin to think of the astounding records that were made on Tridents. I'll probably never have a hit, but at least I have the sonic character of a hit. Sonar is more than capable of doing it's part  too. My 16 track machine sits idle over it's corner, day after day, synchronizer on, timecode running and all ready to go. But with the sound coming from my personal selection of assets in the studio and out of Sonar, I see no point.
 
I don't know how long it will be before the younger guys will be able to really emulate the sonic character imparted by analog gear, on the records my generation grew up with and loved. I don't know if they will even want it or appreciate it when they hear it. I suspect most average listeners won't. And that is sad. But I do know that today, just like days of old, to purchase and own the hardware stuff is expensive. I feel blessed beyond belief to have such fabulous tools available. I cannot comprehend why young folks are not standing in line to intern and  learn the process. But there is no interest.
 
DAW's have at last made it possible for someone to set in their bedroom and attempt to emulate what just a few years back required dozens of folks to do. Highly skilled people. From Composers, A&R directors, copyist, arrangers,  producers, studio engineers, a select few tested studio musicians  that knew what would work on the radio such as the Swampers, Wrecking Crew, American studio band in Memphis, or the Funk Brother, Memphis Horns, backup singing groups galore, Mix engineers, Mastering engineers, and the list goes on and on.
 
Music recording was an entire industry with thousands of people adding there particular talents to the process. And it was damn expensive.
 
Basically, you can get close to analog if you really dig into Sonar. I know that Cakewalk touts the modern hits made with it so I am sure it is possible today to make music with it that will be accepted and with the "modern" sound. But regardless, it is a steep learning curve. Greg Henderschott, the originator of Cakewalk recognized early on that as the software became more and more complex that it was going be able to do a lot of things some people had no interest in and add increased difficulty in understanding it. He was a very forward thinking person and I miss him.
 
But if you hang in there, you will be pleasantly surprised at how quickly you will pick up tid bits here and there, a sense of comfort will be reached with the software and after a period of time, it will start to come together.
 
Good luck and keep up posted.
2013/07/31 00:28:45
wcedgar
Thanks much, some of the best tutorials I'm finding are on the X1 and that's a great start.  Don't think I'll ever record through it, just use it to mix and master my stuff before I release it. 
I plan on being too busy playing 'live' dates to get that far into it.
 
Regards
2013/07/31 00:41:56
spacealf
Perhaps should get the equipment correct first.
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According to this link and if this is the unit you have:
http://www.alesis.com/hd24

"Two hot-swappable media bays provide convenient access to recording drives and allow data backup in minutes. You can edit tracks internally or easily transfer to computer via an Ethernet connection."

24-bit recording at 44.1 and 48 kHz sample rates.

"HD24 can be upgraded to HR24XR with the EC2 module. This user-installable option replaces the A/D and D/A converters with the renowned AKM converters used in the acclaimed MasterLink. EC2 improves performance at all sample rates and also expands analog and digital-input compatibility to include 88.2 and 96 kHz sample resolutions."
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According to the website, you start out with a 40gB drive and second bay is empty.
 
We have just been through this with or about this with an older ADAT Alesis tape machine and how to get it into the computer.
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Signal-Routing-Question-m2844046.aspx
which I suppose is not really relevant for your machine, since it is 24 bit and you have an Ethernet Connection.
 
I suppose that be the easiest way in (but then I am not familiar with that).
 
Only thing I think I do know, is that if you record in (and you have AD to DA conversion in the machine already) then sending it out over the Ethernet Connection I think will send it out analog, and sending it out through the ADAT connections would keep it digital. Of course sending it out of the ADATs connections and having an interface card in the computer would cost more, but the signal would be AD (analog to digital)(inside your machine) and keep it digital (out through the ADAT connections of your machine) into the computer. If not then through the Ethernet connection I think it would be analog so you would have AD into your unit back to DA out of your machine into the computer which is digital. The only reason I mention this is that if you wanted to end up with it on your HD24 again to record it after working on it in the computer you have two choices. Spend some extra money and make it AD and digital into the computer and back out of the computer in digital to your HD24 in digital but recording the final product on your HD24 to your machine to output perhaps with the analog outs then. Otherwise, once in the computer in analog form, then having a sound card in your computer you can play it on that which is the DA conversion from the digital from the computer.
 
Well, perhaps something to think about. And if having a soundcard in the computer than Sonar has to be set up for that doing the audio test first before doing anything. Next the individual tracks (on which the recording is going to happen) have to be set up for the input of whatever you are going and how you are going to send it into the computer.
 
I wonder if Ethernet Connection keeps the individual tracks separated, maybe someone else knows about that. (or it can be looked up perhaps on the Internet).
 
Maybe you are way ahead of where I am thinking, but then I did not see that mentioned.
 
 
2013/07/31 00:47:55
wcedgar
I send it to the PC with my Alesis Fireport 1394
Once  I have it to the PC there isn't any reason I'd ever want it back on the HD 24.  
I'm 100% happy with the way I am going this and just use the Sonar to mix and master.  
Thanks
 
2013/07/31 06:12:06
gswitz
WC Edgar, I started using Sonar (Cakewalk then) the exact same way you are. I had used another recording system for years and I continued to use that to capture the original recordings. The Tascam 2488 was silent for all intents and purposes and NEVER crashed. :-) I still use it sometimes.
 
Then I would move the wave files into Sonar and Mix them. This was a great way to get introduced to Sonar.
  • It didn't matter how loud my computer was because it wasn't on when I was recording.
  • The Tascam did a better job than my first interface (M-Audio Fast Track Ultra)
  • I was never re-recording or punching in
  • I only needed to learn to mix the tracks, greatly limiting a lot of the complex aspects of Sonar from my field of view. I didn't need Midi. I didn't need Input Echo. Latency didn't matter at all.
  • VST Effects and automation envelopes were the only things in Sonar I used for that first year.
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