2014/05/10 02:30:09
Steve_Karl
Moshkiae
Hi,
(long and detailed)
NOTE: This might be way too far, and thought of as not helpful. Essentially, an artist has to decide if he/she is going to be an artist or a copy of something else. END OF STORY!
 
If, otherwise, then press on. If you study the lives and history of the artists, in any discipline, you will learn quickly that many of them fought way too hard to be able to do what they did ... and this is something that you have to define for yourself.
 
When it comes to music, emotion and getting that emotion across to the audience is the most important thing to me...

 
This is good to a point. By the time you catch Iggy Pop and others, who are basically insane on stage, it makes you wonder where emotion ends and insanity starts. Then you can hear a Peter Hammill crying and screaming in his material and you ask yourself ... if he is really hurt ... and he is ... that's the way he does it, though he is older now.
 
There is a good side to that and a bad side to that. The good side, is that (usually) that person is a fairly good student of expression, or they are not capable of doing any of this. However, there is a more recent development of things, in the "metal", progressive and otherwise area, where I seriously think that this is about the cookie factory and not the ability or the talent behind it.
 
...  I feel that if practically no one interprets any music I create the way I do and it just comes out as something that is either completely different to anyone else (has a different feel to everyone else than what I feel from it), and/or has no emotion to anyone else but me, then I will be all alone with my own interpretations.

 
YOU ARE all alone with your interpretation!
 
I DO NOT see the same thing that you do, and vice versa!
 
See?
 
And you, or me, expecting the audience to understand and "know" what you are doing and thinking, is pretentious and will get you thrown out a few times before you find out that in the end, this is called "the fourth wall", and that is something that you have to learn to let go.
 
Concentrate on your work! Forget what is outside the wall, because if you don't you will LOSE everything that you want to do, and I guarantee you that you will quit!
 
... music theory just involves you learning about scales, note lengths, etc. and does explain the emotional (psychological aspects) of music to a certain degree. But it does not fully explain the psychological aspects. ...

 
The "idea", which no teacher I have ever met tells you, is that you can bend, shape, turn, those scales, notes and other details to express yourself better.
 
But this is not "simple", and should NEVER be put into a generic bullmerde type of thing like major is happy and minor is sad, which Bach showed is not true at all! It is an illusion that has a tendency to make you conform to something that is not there ... that you are supposed to feel this, when in fact you got an erection instead! It's important you see that rather neanderthal way of defining music is for the dogs, cats and monkees of the world, not you or I!
 
But remember that DAW's are making this harder to define, by using sound effects instead of "expression". The effects themselves become an expression because it might give you a feeling that you can not define or understand.
 
In general, this confuses the issue a lot more than it helps, specially if the music is a bunch of confusion anyway, and no one does anything except play around with another toy! Which is supposed to define something for you?
 
Right!
 
... This is obviously where music psychology would come in handy. It would be a book/teaching that explains the psychology behind knowing what combinations of notes/rests/instruments to use, etc. in order to portray the exact feeling that you want. ...

 
Incorrect. (In my book!)
 
This is where you want to define yourself and your expression better!
 
You need to get off pop/classical/anything music to do this, because the best expression is not on the air/tv, and it looks like it is buried and hidden and occult (old day's expression!), but it is not. It's out there, but because it is so individualistic, most people, tend to stay away from it, because they get somewhat scared that someone takes things this far! AND they can't, for whatever reason!
 
When you come to grips with those expressions, it will take a little time, but you can bring out yours. You might already have it, but because you are comparing things so much to scales, notes and professors, there is no way that you will EVER find yourself in there. Because it is in YOU, not them!
 
Remember that!
 
... It would be interesting to know if my musical interpretations are illogical and false and don't follow any given musical logic according to music theory and music psychology ...

 
It is (All), way too subjective to be discussed, and things like this tend to come off a bit like ... therapy ... because you will find way too many moments where you think/feel that you have to look in the mirror again and figure out things again.
 
It's not, EVER, about figuring out anything.
 
Take a hint from your dreams ... and how wild and off kilter they can be, and that should give you a hint. However, society thinks that it is all about "control" of those "primitive" ideas, and this is where the majority of "emotion" and the details that you are looking for reside. NOT, necessarily, in your ideas! For it to be effective, it has to come from the soul. If you just want pop music, then any words will do and no one will give a damn about it's meaning but they will walk around like a zombie! And make sure you pay your $100 bux to go see your favorite star!
 
Again, this is about "you", not music. When you arrive at that conclusion, the rest will be a piece of cake, and you will enjoy it, too!
 
Hope this helps ... I had more to say, but I had to trim it down as it was already way too long.




Excellent post!
2014/05/10 02:53:25
sharke
Moshkiae
According to the guy that teaches the perfect pitch thing



You're not talking about the guy with the really high pitched voice whose perfect pitch training course (available on 10 handy cassette tapes) was advertised in every guitar mag in the late 80's/early 90's? 
 
2014/05/10 03:06:39
craigb
I've got that course.  Both actually (Perfect Pitch and Relative Pitch).  Someday I may actually finish them! 
2014/05/10 03:55:15
Mozart Link
Steve_KarlYou say: "When it comes to music, emotion and getting that emotion across to the audience is the most important thing to me."
That is most certainly the fasted path to the dark side you can ever choose!
The only really truly great music is written by the composer and for the composer, alone.
To care what anyone else thinks about what you do is a grave mistake.
To lust after their praise is an even greater mistake.
Those 2 mistakes will lead you to empty hollow meaningless expressions not fit to be called music.
(You have to earn the ability to do the 2 above by having an equally strong heart to balance that kind of  ego / stupidity.)

Now before I answer this, go ahead and read my previous post if you haven't read that already.  But as for my answer here, different people pursue things for different reasons (they can be good or bad).  In my case, it's not because I just seek self-glorification, it's because it is a form of emotional communication.  Expressing yourself and communicating is your personality.  So to me, composing music (expressing and communicating emotion) is a superior personality.  And plus, I just really want to share the music I hear in my head.
 
Since my inspiration is from a videogame known as Zelda (which is a game that is mystical and god-like), I feel that by me creating music that is Zelda-style (mystical and god-like), I have given myself a mystical god-like personality that is far superior to my normal typical human personality that I use to engage in normal human activities such as conversations/ etc.  If I communicate as a normal human being would, that's how I would feel (normal).  But me communicating through music makes me feel superior (just in terms of myself--I do not glorify myself above others).
 
But let's pretend that no one else is on this planet but me, I just wouldn't find any point in making music just for me alone to enjoy.  The desire of my music is to communicate to others.  It engages in an emotional communicating world that I feel is superior for me and is about glorifying this world of Zelda that I like so much with my own created music.  I wish to glorify and amplify the emotion of the world of Zelda even greater than what it already is because of how much inspiration it has given me.
 
 
2014/05/10 05:29:07
Steve_Karl
Mozart Link
Expressing yourself and communicating is your personality.  So to me, composing music (expressing and communicating emotion) is a superior personality.  And plus, I just really want to share the music I hear in my head.


I see no separation, no fractured self. It's all integrated. I see no superior or inferior. It's just a vibration when I actually stop the judgment and evaluation of self.
That suspension of judgment is essential to me getting anything done that is satisfying.
2014/05/10 07:50:14
jamesg1213
Since my inspiration is from a videogame known as Zelda (which is a game that is mystical and god-like), I feel that by me creating music that is Zelda-style (mystical and god-like), I have given myself a mystical god-like personality that is far superior to my normal typical human personality that I use to engage in normal human activities such as conversations/ etc.  If I communicate as a normal human being would, that's how I would feel (normal).  But me communicating through music makes me feel superior (just in terms of myself--I do not glorify myself above others).

 
Yep. it's the 'Colly Jolly' guy.
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com...-my-song-m2715349.aspx
2014/05/10 11:11:03
spacey
Everything you've experienced and learned in life is "in your head".
 
In the conscious state of mind much of that information is not thought about but it's there.
 
As a musician one creates from their experience and knowledge of music but the issue of
awareness from the conscious and subconscious state of mind is still there.
 
IMO the conscious state of mind can and does get in the way of creating music to a very large degree.
It's when a musician "draws" not only from the conscious but doesn't let it "get in the way" of letting
them create from the "well" of feelings and information about music they may have.
 
If that makes sense- then the musicians abilities to create and express the music they may hear in their
head may happen without "thinking" getting the way and it also explains why one that can achieve that is
all the better having been exposed to music training.
 
 
 
 
 
 
2014/05/10 11:59:29
paulo
jamesg1213
Since my inspiration is from a videogame known as Zelda (which is a game that is mystical and god-like), I feel that by me creating music that is Zelda-style (mystical and god-like), I have given myself a mystical god-like personality that is far superior to my normal typical human personality that I use to engage in normal human activities such as conversations/ etc.  If I communicate as a normal human being would, that's how I would feel (normal).  But me communicating through music makes me feel superior (just in terms of myself--I do not glorify myself above others).

 
Yep. it's the 'Colly Jolly' guy.
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com...-my-song-m2715349.aspx





 
 
2014/05/10 12:27:28
Moshkiae
Hi,
 
I actually have all the patience and will necessary to learn all that is needed to translate what's in my head.  When I was talking about music psychology, I wasn't looking for another way out--I was just looking for an added addition that would be ideal for really helping me out.  But, of course, it doesn't exist.

 
It could exist. I never doubted it. The problem is that I hear things in my dreams that are likely to be instruments that will be created and played 200 years from now, if a synthesizer effect does not come up with the sound before then!
Translating what is in your head, FOR ME, is not hard, but the more you do the better it feels and the strogner it gets, until one day you put together a set of notes, lines, or words, that clicks big time. When this comes is not an issue, but if it comes really early, it is harder to learn backwards in my experience.
 
Now in terms of translating what I hear in my head, there is also another major problem which is that when I do attempt in creating the notes, I cannot even tell if the notes I've created match with what's in my head as I do not have a means of direct comparison between the notes in my head and the notes I've created....

 
I don't think this is as much about the "note" (or chord) as it is the context that it is placed in, and the notes/chords around it. This has been my experience in writing, and the main reason why I make sure I keep the movie going and write as fast as possible and worry about little details later. One interruption has the unffortunate effect of stopping it all completely, or simply change the course of events.
 
But, as is the case in poetry with "pregnant pauses", or what I call "thinking pauses", I tend to space things out, but some folks think that my use of ... (dotdotdot) is stupid and does not help their reading and comprehension. But it is the only thing I know to use at that moment ... basically we need to take a deep breath ... a sort of Pinter pause without the smoke rings, you could say!
 
Therefore, I cannot tell if the song I created has the same feel as the one in my head or if it's a completely different song with a completely different feel.

 
In my experience, this means there was an interruption in the process that broke the stream of consciousness.
 
Therefore, I would have to rely on a trial and error process in which I present the song I've created to the audience and see if they agree that it portrays the feelings that I've described (the feelings I've described for the real song in my head).

 
I don't. I go back to the "source", and try to define it better. The only issue/problem here is that these inner seconds can be VERY fleeting and it is too late for you to go back and try to make them come alive again. Usually, they only have one optimum time span for it to happen, and when the thinking mind gets involved, some of it loses its freshness and what appealed to you in the first place!
 
I go back to the "source" and "moment" if I can. If not, that is not exactly a moment that is ready to "come down the stairs" as I like to say. If not, then we start somewhere else and it is a new experience.
 
I, again, understand that everyone feels differently about music.  But there are, in fact, songs that do successfully portray emotion across to the audience.

 
I would suggest that you not compare what you are trying to learn to anyone else. It's good to "know" and "appreciate" these emotions when you find and see them, but comparing yourself to them is too confusing and will stop/destroy your ability to define your own.
 
It's a similar thing in spiritual exercises like meditation, which I would suggest to you to help define/work the inner vision better, when you finally get to the point where you can see and feel the light and there is a massive moment in there ... do you just want to observe it, or do you want to try it and be "in it". Most folks are too self-conscious to try something this difficult and deep. The funny thing is that it is one of the finest experiences, that teaches you so much more about artistry than any word ever will in your life.
 
Once "inside", you no longer need explanations and definitions. And your hands accidentally find the right notes, and you will surprise yourself.
 
... I completely feel that the songs in my head have generalized feelings to them that will get through to the audience and that how I feel about these songs in my head are not just my own interpretations. 

 
I try not to judge whether Mick Jaeger or Madonna or Rhianna are true with their words or not. ANYONE's expression is anyone's expression and that's that. I tend to not spend time in a lot of this, because there is too much out there, that can distort the whole thing badly.
 
The only thing that comes to my mind is that I can see some nifty colors when I hear some folks sing, or play. In other cases, there is no "color" for me, and I tend to think that their playing is way too mechanical for it to flow, although there are some folks that absolutely magical with their mechanics. Guitarist Jon McGlothlen is one such excellent example. At this point things blur a bit, but one has to appreciate the musicianship involved.
 
... But weren't famous composers such as Mozart and Beethoven successful at doing this?

 
I don't know, and sometimes I doubt it. I don't think that they had as much appreciation in their time as we do a lot of popular artists. Remember that there was no "media" to carry the music across the oceans, and most of it that did would be off a manuscript of some sort, as long as the Catholic Church in Europe did not get their hands on it.
The history of music, and any art, has been about people that CHANGED things, and did something different. It could/should be stated that they were capable of seeing something else and they learned how to translate their own vision into music. But we have to be careful with this ... as understanding the inner side of these things is not about "understanding" as it is about our own feelings and emotions, and that is way too subjective to put down as a "process", and we need to accept that we're all different.
 
Btw, I do not consider, progressive and experimental music as "songs". To me it is all MUSIC, and deserves the credit and consideration. There is far better rock music and jazz music these days, than there is contemporary classical music, that is not yet being accepted because we're stuck on old academic models.
 
The mind is not a "model". It is a person. And it does not fit a "mold".
 
So you either study your own abilities and forget the others, or you will end up confused in the semantics of it all. It does not mean, however, that these other folks can not be appreciated. There are a lot of very good folks out there, that do things in a very interesting way.
2014/05/10 12:31:50
jamesg1213
paulo
 
 
Yep. it's the 'Colly Jolly' guy.
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com...-my-song-m2715349.aspx





 
 




I have no words.
 
Nor does he.
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