I've got nothing against subs.  I've used one off and on over the last 10 or so years (I'm currently in "off" mode).  And while YMMV for me I mix better in my room without one.  Perhumps if I ever finally "shoot my room" with my JBL MSC thingy I might change my mind.  And, kind of like this blog, I don't "really" have any tech specs to bolster my argument.  But I'm in the HPF bunch and the critical listening bunch and the don't mix so dang loud bunch.  A subwoofer, placed incorrectly or used incorrectly can potentially do as much damage as good.  That's my story and I'm stickin to it.  Or am I?

Zo


For me the subwoofer is a real must !! and it's not a must until you tried it !!

ARC frop IK helped me alot !! 

ARC and my Adam sub was pivotal in improving my mixes.

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
] 

May I also ask this? What is with the level of cynicism and mistrust that finds its way into just about everything here?...

Yeah we're trying to sell subs so we pre-empted with a blog post about subs. C'mon - that's silly. 

+1

Lately, I've found the level of cynicism here so bad that I literally have to mentally prepare myself to visit the Cakewalk forums. This year for the first time ever I've even start adding people to the 'blocked list'. Some solely because of the absurb amount of negativity that they seem to be capable of generating, regardless of the topic.

-e.B

panup


You need subwoofers to check there's no rumble in the mix? Curious reason. Blog poster, use HPF - it's built in the ProChannel and it will save your money. 
If you add subwoofer to your system, it's not as straightforward as adding a new plugin to a mix. Subwoofers require good, well tuned room or they make your listening environment unpredictable, if not totally unusable. 

I mix on Genelec 8040A  nearfields + 7060A sub but my control room is big enough, well treated and measured  by Genelec engineers. I don't remember any mix over the years I would have saved because subwoofer made me hear rumble. If that is your main concern, dear Mr. Cakewalk blog poster, I'd suggest you to use your money on your tracking room isolation.  Meanwhile, just add 2nd pass HPF to each track that is not bass or kick drum.

There's so much more to this than "some rumble" and it can't be fixed with filters if you want information down there. Yes with acoustic instruments you can filter out unwanted low frequencies, but it's hard to make bass-centric music without hearing what many of your listeners will be hearing.

Eric Beam


It's a valid blog post & I don't see any "marketing" involved. 2.1 setups for music can be ideal for home/project studios. I've tuned post production/music rooms for many years now & have used subs for along time. No nearfield is going to push any significant amount of air below 40hz. Lucky if they handle below 80hz with flat response.

What the post could of added was a simple setup procedure if room tuning isn't an option. Subs are easier so setup then most people think.
Ideally you would use an RTA but it's not needed for personal use.

1. check the specification of your nearfields & based on frequency response decide on a crossover point.
2. Set sub to the estimated crossover point.
3. Play a selection of music to know VERY well & adjust sub level until it hits that "sweet spot". Trust your ears, you know what sounds good. Don't worry if it's technically flat, this room is for you to mix by. As long as you have referenced it to known content you can make informed mix decisions. Simple as that.

Excellent points and advice Eric.

(FWIW: I think Mike, the blog author, was just trying to spark a conversation and get people thinking about subs for mixing and possibly consider it for their own system. I don't think it was meant to be a white paper or the final authority on all information regarding subwoofers in the studio.)

I think it's great we're having this conversation here though.

Another thing about subs. A lot of people equate sub with "loud" or "loud bass". On the contrary, having a sub can allow you to actually mix at lower levels. Smaller monitors often need to be pushing quite hard to generate the lowest frequencies they are capable of. Having a sub takes the stress off the smaller drivers and allows them to work more efficiently and at arguably lower mixing levels.

I feel it also, and it's one of the reasons I don't visit here much or rarely post. This forum has a nasty reputation, and it seems that if you really cared about how your product is perceived, you would do something about it. I know I'm not the only one that's sick of it. The cakewalk forum seems to be the 4chan of audio sites. 

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk

]

May I also ask this? What is with the level of cynicism and mistrust that finds its way into just about everything here? Why is it curious that employees offer opinions and insights into what they think is important, or just cool/fun/etc,  in today's world of recording? It's a blog post. Some see evil machinations in everything. If anything it's only to call attention to the blog and inform about Cakewalk and recording in general. It's intended to be useful information for the reader, whether a SONAR user or not.

Yeah we're trying to sell subs so we pre-empted with a blog post about subs. C'mon - that's silly.

I liked that HP Workstation...

On my behalf I was not cynical but in my opinion there are better alternatives for hobby mixers to control low end than just adding a subwoofer.  It will not give you immediately better results because you'll have to learn mixing with subwoofer first.  Subwoofer is almost useless until you have a good, well treated room with enough space; you can hear if there is "a lot of" or "not so much" low end but you're not able to hear anything accurately. 

Of course it's not possible to make a comprehensive presentation of low end mixing in one post. That's why discussion continued here; to give alternative opinions and points of view. 



It's not just a blog post. It's Cakewalk's blog post! It gets more attention than some anonymous blogs from unknown sources. Cakewalk means recording knowledge and professionalism. 

The next blog post subject could be room treatment and setting up monitoring system. It has far more influence on the mixes than any plugin you use. New brickwall limiter or $$L compressor may improve your sound in the last 0.1 dB but a few acoustic panels in the right spots may improve mixes 9 dB.  

Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]

There's so much more to this than "some rumble" and it can't be fixed with filters if you want information down there. Yes with acoustic instruments you can filter out unwanted low frequencies, but it's hard to make bass-centric music without hearing what many of your listeners will be hearing. 

You're right, Brandon. I just want to add that subwoofer is not the only piece of equipment you need. Good room and bass traps make HUGE influence because you need to achieve tight, controlled bass sound, not just more low end in general. 

I think it's great you open discussion about these kind of subjects. :-)