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Cactus Music
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Re: monitors 2017/06/02 01:27:40 (permalink)
Forget the Genelec's they are rear ported too. Not to be set back in my plans I started do a little reading about rear ported speakers, I thought this dude I pasted below did a good job of explaining, from a Hi Fi forum. On the Yamaha web site they mention the selection switch which can compensate for room placement. I'm going to a rehearsal at my friends studio tonight and will look closer at his rig. 
 
 Copied from here :https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/rear-ported-speakers-backs-to-wall
 
Speaker placement will be all the more important with tuned port speakers, which have their own non-linear resonances. You would probably be better off with a sealed box: a design which will be more forgiving on placement.

Placing speakers anywhere close to a rear wall will boost base response by a few db, but will also cause a frequency dip from rear reflected base frequencies that cancel the forward radiating energy. This can be as much as a 20db hole in your frequency response in the base. As you place the speakers closer to the wall you will move this interference upwards in frequency and make it more evident. (This problem does not affect mid and higher frequencies as they radiate almost entirely forward from the speaker and not backwards)

If you can get your speakers 1.8 Meters from the rear wall (measured from front baffle) then you will have a dip at 50Hz ....this is a good distance to use for linear sound quality but obviously impractical in most rooms! It also means you lose a few db in base response as the reflected energy does not add to the forward radiating energy.

If you place your speakers at 50 cm from the rear wall (measured from front baffle) then the problem will occur at 170 Hz: a problem! 

At a mere 25 cm from the wall then the hole in LF frequency occurs at 340 Hz: a definite problem!

Generally this means that almost no practical home speaker setup will be immune from this problem; a fact which many audiophiles are unaware of, but one of the principle reasons people keep struggling with speaker placement. Of course, some source material brings out the problem more than other material, but it is hardly practical to keep moving speakers according to what you are listening to!! 

The formula for where your frequency dip/cancellation will occur is 340 / (4 * distance from front baffle to rear wall in meters).

A base trap on the wall behind the speakers can help but the only way to completely eliminate this problem is to soffit mount the speakers - just as they do in studios. This is what I have done at home.

Johnny V  
Sonar Platinum Lifetime and Home Studio 
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Roland A49 - Yamaha DTX 400- Yamaha NMS 10's
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#31
kawika
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Re: monitors 2017/06/02 04:30:32 (permalink)
Yea....I think if I stay away from the rear port, most of the suggestions will be fine. As mentioned above and  before ---it's all about learning how the gear behaves in the studio. thanks
#32
kawika
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Re: monitors 2017/06/02 05:35:10 (permalink)
Thanks for the info Johnny. Just did some follow-up reading...I learned a new word and a new concept  "soffit". Have you heard any negative things about the Yamaha MSP7?.......or perhaps, just not enough positive remarks? thanks...
#33
Cactus Music
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Re: monitors 2017/06/02 14:40:13 (permalink)
That's the thing , I've now been in 2 home studio's with the HS8's and I also demoed them in a store once where I got to compair with a bunch of other top selling brands. By far the worst that day where those yellow coned Rockets. I found many monitors where way to bass heavy.  I've just never seen or heard the MS series. They look totally different and they are not as powerful
 but who knows, they might be great,, I would have to demo them. 
 
 I get a magazine called Professional Sound and they review one or two Canadian studios each issue. You see the Genelecs and the Yamaha's HS series a lot. Of course you see more of the NSM 10's too as well as little Auratones.
 
FYI soffit mount speakers are not near field. They are BIG speakers and made to crank it up. That only works in a REAL control room with the traditional layout with the listening position mid room. I sort of have the same idea with my Alto TS 112 PA speakers up on stands. I proof my backing tracks with those.
 
The original idea of a Near Field Monitor was they go on what was once called the meter bridge which was of course mid room so always at least 3' to the glass wall looking into the live room. I would guess this was to avoid listening fatigue from the mains. 
 
Don't rule out rear porting speakers just yet. I'd did a lot of reading yesterday and lots of people using rear ports and some very close to the walls. I looked at my friend set up last night and his HS8 are about 16" from a very very dead wall. His mix position is in a 8' wide space and the front wall and sides walls for about 6' are 4" rock wool covered with loose knit fabric.  
 
I found a few threads on Gear Slutz with the topic. Plenty of people using Genelecs and HS-5 or 8's near walls. Most had treated the walls. I was going to treat my wall anyhow.  
Another comments I read - many found with the smaller speakers, like the HS5 the  bass enhancement was actually welcome and these people were having no issues at all with mixes translating to other playback systems... the bottom line with monitors. 
 
So myself I am not turned away with my choice of the HS8. But I might even look at the HS 5 as being more appropriate replacement for my NSM 10's. 
 
And I will look at other monitors when the time comes, but after that first test I did I will want to repeat that in a store again. Trouble is each store in Vancouver carries only some brands. 

Johnny V  
Sonar Platinum Lifetime and Home Studio 
Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Tascam us1641
My Build i5 quad core 16 Gigs RAM  W10 
Roland A49 - Yamaha DTX 400- Yamaha NMS 10's
Musician since 1964, Studio since 1984, Cakewalk since 2004.  
http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
https://soundcloud.com/john-vere/tracks
 
#34
scook
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Re: monitors 2017/06/02 15:21:51 (permalink)
Cactus Music
 they are not as powerful

would you clarify what you mean?
#35
Cactus Music
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Re: monitors 2017/06/02 16:29:16 (permalink)
Well take the MSP 5 = 40 Watts and the HS 5 = 70 watts. 
40 watts seems pretty wimpy.. I've always had at least 70 - 120 watts powering my NMS 10's. 
I realise these are all bi Amped and class D is different but the MSP series is almost half the power for same size LF driver power. 
 
I will certainly be looking at the MSP's as Yamaha has done me well over my 40 years of owning gear. If I could have afforded to, I would have bought the Yamaha DXR 12" boxes instead of the Alto's, but the Alto's were half the price so I took the chance and it's worked out 100% so far. 
post edited by Cactus Music - 2017/06/03 02:45:01

Johnny V  
Sonar Platinum Lifetime and Home Studio 
Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Tascam us1641
My Build i5 quad core 16 Gigs RAM  W10 
Roland A49 - Yamaha DTX 400- Yamaha NMS 10's
Musician since 1964, Studio since 1984, Cakewalk since 2004.  
http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
https://soundcloud.com/john-vere/tracks
 
#36
scook
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Re: monitors 2017/06/02 16:49:57 (permalink)
May want to double check you information.
 
The MSP5 is biamped with a 40 watt amp for the woofer and a 27 watt amp for the tweeter. The HS5 uses a 45 watt amp for LF and 24 watt for HF.
 
You were originally talking about HS8. In that case, the LF amp is 75 watt and the HF is 45 watt. Compare that to the MPS7 which has a 80 watt amp for LF and 50 watt for HF.
 
I think from a power perspective, similar driver configuations are pretty close. Aside from the obvious cabinet difference, the differences between the HS and MPS drivers are more notable than power. AFAIK, the HS series were designed to capitalize on the popularity of the NS-10. The MPS series were designed as studio monitors.
 
#37
Cactus Music
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Re: monitors 2017/06/02 19:18:47 (permalink)
The Yamaha website is a little buggy and I can't pull up a compair between the HS and MS series but note there is the MSP 5 studio as well as just the plain MSP5A they don't seem to have specs for the Studio. 
 
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/music-production/speakers/msp_studio_series/?selected=43547_43544_219980_&mode=compare
 
MSP5A - 
 LF: 40W at 400Hz, THD=0.02%, RL=4 ohms; HF: 27W at 10kHz, THD=0.02%, RL= 6 ohms 
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/music-production/speakers/hs_series/?selected=626718_626730_626725_&mode=compare
 
HS 5    70W (LF:45W, HF:25W)
 
So yes they are pretty close in power it's just a bit confusing how Yamaha posts the specs. 

Johnny V  
Sonar Platinum Lifetime and Home Studio 
Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Tascam us1641
My Build i5 quad core 16 Gigs RAM  W10 
Roland A49 - Yamaha DTX 400- Yamaha NMS 10's
Musician since 1964, Studio since 1984, Cakewalk since 2004.  
http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
https://soundcloud.com/john-vere/tracks
 
#38
scook
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Re: monitors 2017/06/02 19:54:22 (permalink)
This may be easier to read, includes the HS and MPS studio series
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/compare.php?items=(HS5,MSP5stu,HS8,MSP7stu)
 
#39
kawika
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Re: monitors 2017/06/02 21:41:27 (permalink)
Thanks to both of you. I just read your remarks---which were helpful.
#40
kawika
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Re: monitors 2017/06/03 00:05:42 (permalink)
Just called 4 local gtr centers in hopes of hearing the MSP7. None have it in stock. Is it an older model than the HS-series? On a positive note: ordered my computer from Jim Roseberry today. Did it over the phone---seemed like a knowledgeable patient guy.
#41
Cactus Music
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Re: monitors 2017/06/03 02:48:20 (permalink)
No they are all the latest models. Retail store often only seem to stock what sells the most. Rare you can walk in and try every model of any particular brand. 
One thing you can do is order from Sweetwater and return them if your not happy. 
That doesn't work for me in Canada. I have to pay duty at the border and it's a hassle to get that part back from the Feds. 
 
Thanks once again Steve, Your correct that that comparison shows everything very clearly. You figure Yamaha would have a better web site.. I don't even see links for the owners manuals which is something I often download while shopping. I was curious what Yamaha say's about rear port distances, but I thing you've sold me on looking at the MSP series. 

Johnny V  
Sonar Platinum Lifetime and Home Studio 
Focusrite Scarlett 6i6 / Tascam us1641
My Build i5 quad core 16 Gigs RAM  W10 
Roland A49 - Yamaha DTX 400- Yamaha NMS 10's
Musician since 1964, Studio since 1984, Cakewalk since 2004.  
http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
https://soundcloud.com/john-vere/tracks
 
#42
scook
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Re: monitors 2017/06/03 12:38:19 (permalink)
Yamaha Manuals and other downloads here http://download.yamaha.com/top/?site=usa.yamaha.com&language=en
 
#43
bitflipper
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Re: monitors 2017/06/03 16:09:31 (permalink)
Guitar Center retail stores are the worst place to buy recording gear. As Johnny notes, they are the 7-11 of music stores, stocking many inexpensive products with large margins that appeal to the gullible. Of course, you can get pretty much anything from their online store, as well as from their sibling Musician's Friend. (They are not your friend, btw, but they often have the lowest prices.) Check around and see if there are other local retailers that maybe you don't know about; you might be surprised. 
 
If buying from a local retailer isn't possible, Sweetwater is highly recommended. I've only had a couple issues over the many years I've been a customer (e.g. a keyboard case that didn't fit my synth and cost me $93 to ship back) but overall they've been helpful and customer-oriented.
 
But I still recommend trying the used market first. Guitar Center does have a used gear section on their website that you might want to check out. Craigslist is another avenue, Reverb.com is another.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#44
kawika
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Re: monitors 2017/06/03 21:03:02 (permalink)
Thanks!  By-the-way, here is some (bench-test)  info on MSP7: You may need to type url.
 
https://www.resolutionmag.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Yamaha-MSP7-Studio.pdf  
 
#45
kawika
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Re: monitors 2017/08/12 23:27:15 (permalink)
Follow-up. I bought the Yamaha MSP7s and was missing lows (sans subwoofer) and also missing something in the mids. That's ---just me.
 
I ended up settling on AdamA7Xs and love them.
 
 Sweetwater is always so nice, I don't think I'm gonna ask to return them (MSP7)   (8 weeks late, though they do bend the rules)...so, they are for sale.
 
thanks again for your input guys!
#46
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