"Why the 'beta culture' will have to change"

Yep.

I've been monitoring the issues with 8 waiting to jump and 8.0 seemed not tested much at all in the real world before taking orders. There is no way some of the fixed issues would have escaped the beta testers. This was either not beta tested before release or the testers were ignored. The early adopters of 8 were doing most of the testing. The situation was similar when 7 came out but is worse this time around.

Nothing Cakewalk would say would change my mind about this.

Good article, and thanks for bringing it up. With Sonar, I've always been a late adopter - partly because I'm cheap, and (in the past) there have been good discounts in the 2-3 months prior to the release of a new version, but also because what I buy will be about as debugged as it can be.

But, as I read about what seems to be many issues with Sonar 8 that could have been avoided with more testing and refining... I'm really leaning toward staying put with 7PE. It does anything that I as a home-studio hobbyist might want and then some. I can't think of a good reason to spend the money right now.

In the meantime, hopefully enough folks will hold off on an upgrade and this will motivate the Bakers to tighten up the QC aspect of production.

My .02 worth.

Cheers.

Nothing new here. I doubt the failing economy is likely to improve anything in the software development cycle as the article suggests. The only lesson to be learned here is that in a rapid growth economy bad business practice drives out good business practice. Banks that took insane risks with speculative derivatives could deliver high returns so long as they could draw investmenst, conservative banks could not deliver those returns and hence could not draw investment. So to stay in business banks had to become insane. Software developers that depend on selling new units for operating cash have to rush product to market in order to draw revenue, in order to pay programmers to fix unfinished products. Making credit hard to get will only force cuts in staff and make the release of new and less complete products more necessary. Selling fewer units will only make the survival of the company less likely, not improve the quality of the product. Failure of small software companies will only produce large companies with no competition who have no need to create finished products before release because there is no alternate source for software. If sitting on a pile of cash would result in good software, Microsoft would have not have been one of the leaders in releasing unfinished software.

ORIGINAL: daveny5

Nothing Cakewalk would say would change my mind about this.

Not a very Christian comment for someone with a fish as an avatar. Maybe you should hear their side of the story.

This has nothing to do with Christianity---Cakewalk is a commercial company- their job is to provide reliable products.

I can't understand this CW fanboy stuff at all----I wish people would save their loyalty for things that matter---family, friends--------Personally I despise this whole culture of corporate loyalty---they are there to provide what you pay for---nothing more nothing less

Personally I despise this whole culture of corporate loyalty---they are there to provide what you pay for---nothing more nothing less

I can see where you are coming from, but for me it is the little extras that make the difference, because Cakewalk staff come and participate in this forum, IMO it feels like that although Cakewalk is run as a commercial operation, it seems that they care about the product within those confines.

Cakewalk are not my family or close friends, but it feels like they are people I would like. That to me is worth something

ORIGINAL: R!Soc

Well,

You can have it fast,
You can have it bug free,
Or, you can have it inexpensive.

Pick any two.

For everyone who b!tches about the bugs, I doubt you'd be willing to pay the price of bug free software in a timely manner.

Bug free bug free bug free

I would be willing to pay more for a program that was stable--- I am a professional and have no issue with paying a professional price.

I'm happy to use stuff like brian moore guitars, mesa amps, lexicon revebs etc. I never have a problem with this stuff--I would like the same sense of reliability from CW

I can totally understand everyone's arguments in this one....honest I can. Though I wouldn't consider myself a "fan boy", I would consider myself loyal to the company. That said, I'd be willing to wait extra time for a release that is as bug free as possible and I'd be willing to spend a little more for it. Let's all be realistic for one second....just one. LOL!! There are so many configurations, so many different systems, hardware etc...this to me, is impossible to test in 1 years time. Seriously! They either need more beta testers, or more time and more beta testers....those are the only altenatives really.

Now, playing on the other argumentive side of the fence, I find it extremely unprofessional that 2 versions of Sonar 8 were completely unusable for me. This is unacceptable, period. Those of you that didn't experience the 5 second pause or the other issues some of us experienced, I'm truly happy you didn't have to deal with that. The majority of us want to puchase something, and use it that day without a hitch. Now, maybe this is why our upgrade prices are so cheap? Ever think that may be the reason? To me, S8 (no matter what went on in the internal creation of it) is still a modded version of 7 for me other than 4-5 options. For how "I" particularly use Sonar, this is how I feel. For those of you that use it differently than I do, I'm sure you can list 10 new features or more. But for me, I could live without it really and this to me is important as to whether I upgrade something or not.

If I would have known ahead of time that there would be no real difference in 8 to 7, I wouldn't have spent the upgrade price to get a version of Sonar that was basically a modded version of 7 that didn't even work right for me until 8.02. That sounds harsh, and I can hear Noel gritting his teeth if he's reading this...but this is how *this* Sonar user feels. S5-7 worked fine for me (other than 7 still gives me errors recording V Drums) to where I've always gotten my work done. The enhancements made from 5-8 in my humble opinion, didn't merit $180 a year per upgrade. Seriously. Sure there were some cool options implemented, but if you're me, was it worth nearly $600 to me to purchase versions 6, 7 and 8? Were those additional options really that necessary to where if you took S6-8 away from me that I'd be upset that I'd be stuck with 5? Not one bit really. My point in all this is, it really depends how we as individuals use this product. There are probably 300 Sonar capabilities in the program that I do not use. Yet, I can still get my work done and at the end of the day, this is all that matters to me. If we can't get our work done because of issues, it matters not how many cool options or softsynths or awesome new implementations are there. This is where this whole topic in my opion, becomes entirely subjective, ya know?

Though I'm playing a little Devils advocate here, I see this to probably be true within most of us. We love the product or we wouldn't be here using it and talking about it on a daily basis. We know it's one of the best programs ever made for recording, and we know that deep down inside, no matter what we say about the Bakers that frequent this forum, they really do care if we are having issues. I sincerely believe these guys go home with headaches every night trying to please us and some of what we see is probably not upto them. They feel our pain, I can just tell. This also may be why we don't see them getting involved much. Why defend something if they are truly feeling the way we are? They are human too, ya know? Granted, sometimes we go a bit nuts with our posts due to frustration. I'm as guilty of that as the next person. We want what we paid for to work, and we don't really care what it takes to make it work, as long as we feel we got what we paid for. But...knowing what I know now with all the differrent possibilities a program like this can bring on, I've learned to be a bit more patient because as I've said in the past, go browse the other forums of our competitors. You'll see how many unanswered posts there are and how the tone of their forums are much different than ours. If another Sonar user can't get you a work-around or a possible fix on this forum, you either have a legit issue, or you have no business using the software. That's how I see it. :) I'll take my chances on Sonar and continue to lean on you guys for support and work-arounds. I just hope the Cake dudes use this S8 experience to make some changes for the future because parts of this release were definitely not handled right. Just my 0.2 though. :)

ORIGINAL: artsoul

Bug free bug free bug free

I would be willing to pay more for a program that was stable--- I am a professional and have no issue with paying a professional price.

I'm happy to use stuff like brian moore guitars, mesa amps, lexicon revebs etc. I never have a problem with this stuff--I would like the same sense of reliability from CW

Cool,

Put your money where your mouth is. Hire a team of programmers, and have them develop the software you really want.

Let me know the cost when all is said and done.

Something tells me you're not really ready to spend what it would take.

Personally, I have no intention to spend anywhere near what it would take to satisfy all my needs and wants with DAW software. So, until I win the lottery, I've decided to spend a couple hundred bucks on Sonar each year. It's certainly better that any alternative I've come across.

ORIGINAL: artsoul

ORIGINAL: daveny5

Nothing Cakewalk would say would change my mind about this.

Not a very Christian comment for someone with a fish as an avatar. Maybe you should hear their side of the story.

This has nothing to do with Christianity---Cakewalk is a commercial company- their job is to provide reliable products.

I can't understand this CW fanboy stuff at all----I wish people would save their loyalty for things that matter---family, friends--------Personally I despise this whole culture of corporate loyalty---they are there to provide what you pay for---nothing more nothing less

Separation of Church and Cake

ORIGINAL: R!Soc

ORIGINAL: artsoul

Bug free bug free bug free

I would be willing to pay more for a program that was stable--- I am a professional and have no issue with paying a professional price.

I'm happy to use stuff like brian moore guitars, mesa amps, lexicon revebs etc. I never have a problem with this stuff--I would like the same sense of reliability from CW

Cool,

Put your money where your mouth is. Hire a team of programmers, and have them develop the software you really want.

Let me know the cost when all is said and done.

Something tells me you're not really ready to spend what it would take.

Personally, I have no intention to spend anywhere near what it would take to satisfy all my needs and wants with DAW software. So, until I win the lottery, I've decided to spend a couple hundred bucks on Sonar each year. It's certainly better that any alternative I've come across.

This was un-neededly nasty and cheap---typical of this place and the attitude within it.


Yes I would pay more for a professional version of sonar, I happen to like the program and want it to work---I paid for sonar and for it to this buggy IS unprofessional.

ORIGINAL: R!Soc

Well,

You can have it fast,
You can have it bug free,
Or, you can have it inexpensive.

Pick any two.

For everyone who b!tches about the bugs, I doubt you'd be willing to pay the price of bug free software in a timely manner.

As a business application developer for over 30 years now, I've known this rule to be absolutely true. Management will say it's wrong and when faced with the facts that you cannot get all three, they say "Well you just don't know how to do it". Then they bring in a new project manager and the cycle starts all over again. I've seen it time and time again.

UnderTow says I'm wrong cuz he had a project (that in bitflipper's and my opinion was small in nature) that did accomplish all three. On a small enough scale this can be true. But not on the scale of a DAW (JMO).

ORIGINAL: daveny5

Why should CW's side of the "story" be relevant at all---the OP bought the software in good faith. This isn't some altruistic arrangment we have here-they sell us the thing as working and to a lot of people it doesnt.

There are an infinite number of possible computer hardware and software combinations and its impossible to make products that will work on every one of them. Also, some people are not as skilled or experienced with computers and software as others. Some of the so-called bugs may simply be conflicts with other drivers or hardware.

If you're dissatisfied with the product, by all means, you should return it for a refund and use something else.

I agree with you on some problems being user error, most are not---I have seen as lot of long term users having major issues here (which i don't recall from before).. the fact remains that the development cycle is too fast and sonar is unstable as a result (If its for PC then it should work on PC's full stop)

(If its for PC then it should work on PC's full stop)

Perhaps in a perfect world, but you know as well as I do that there is a lot of cheap junk hardware out there with lousy drivers.

Not a very Christian comment for someone with a fish as an avatar. Maybe you should hear their side of the story.

< Message edited by daveny5 -- 11/25/2008 12:03:09 AM >

Dude, Are you serious ????????????????????????

Another problem with "stability" as it applies to DAWs is the unavoidable interdependency that is required to run one. Audio interface, particular MOBO, third party plugs, etc... It's a bit much to expect any one of those links in the chain to work perfectly in any and all random combinations with the others. That said, there should be some fundamental baseline of stable operation on any platform under any conditions. I think Cake is doing a fair job here. But It's also self evident that there are certain problems that are ubiquitous across all systems and should have been dealt with BEFORE releasing any "new" version. Now that Cake and Roland are so chummy perhaps we'll see a complete hardware/software solution that will actually run glitch free, 24/7. Such are the dreams of man.