realistic sounding midi?

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droddey
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RE: realistic sounding midi? 2007/06/12 15:57:02 (permalink)
I do definitely go through it by hand and tweak the velocities. It's the best way to get exactly what you want. It's a little tedious but worth it. Way better than using a quantize function. Mostly I do this on the BFD drums, since that's always the most intricate MIDI stuff I have to deal with. In the process of doing all that editing, I've gotten reasonably good at just drawing in notes where I need them, so I don't always have to go back and punch in stuff. If I need a drum fill at some point that I didn't actually play, I can usually now whip it in easily by hand.

In some patches, like with a SAX, the velocity really is controlling attack, not volume, so you can do a lot to get a realistic sound by adjusting the note to note velocities. In Dim Pro it also provides up/down movement blending, which controls the blending from one note to another as you move to a higher or lower note and that can help a lot also, to adjust those settings appropriately for single line instruments.

Dean Roddey
Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
www.charmedquark.com
#31
ParanoiA
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RE: realistic sounding midi? 2007/06/12 16:13:29 (permalink)
You've definitely delved into it deeper than I, droddey. That up/down movement blending sounds interesting too. But, you know, I just hated all the tedious work to get the realism I wanted. I would rather track a real bass and spend hours recording and re-recording than all the clicking. Plus, I've noticed I actually "write" parts when I'm holding the instrument and playing it rather than clicking and adding note values. I think my bass tracks sound soooo much better now. Too bad I can't do that with woodwinds and the rest of the strings...

However, I did accidentally write the coolest piano part of my career by drawing in notes...well I was actually kinda slap happy, late in the morning, and got frustrated with the slow progress and just started going crazy with the mouse for a second, just clicking randomly in the staff view. Played it back and it sounded awesome. But it was only like 3 seconds long...
#32
droddey
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RE: realistic sounding midi? 2007/06/12 17:26:40 (permalink)
I do play real bass and guitar via a POD as well, though I'm actually using a piano for a bass on my current piece. But all the other stuff I have to do via MIDI. Drums are the biggest one and are at the foundation of any rock/pop music, so I really have to spend a lot of time on them to get them really right. Being a software developer, I don't find it all that big a deal to vegetate in front of the computer for hours and tweak MIDI performances. That's my natural state of being anyway.

Dean Roddey
Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
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#33
shreaded_teddy
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RE: realistic sounding midi? 2007/06/20 18:08:19 (permalink)
this is much more feedback than i expected but i guess i didn't explain my question clearly enough. i was just hoping to find something to use for midi playback that doesn't require setting up any plugins or anything. like microsoft GS Wavetable or midi mapper that sounds alot better and possibly a master tuner option. any sugestions?
#34
jacktheexcynic
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RE: realistic sounding midi? 2007/06/20 21:37:48 (permalink)
someone mentioned soundfonts - if you have a soundblaster you can just load them using the SB's soundfont console or whatever it is now. or you can use 'sfz' by rgcaudio which is a simple VST plugin for soundfonts. you basically load up the soundfont that you want and as long as the soundfont itself is GS compatible you're good to go.

here's a site with the most free soundfonts that i'm aware of: http://hammersound.net/index.html

here's a link to rgcaudio's sfz download: http://www.rgcaudio.com/sfz.htm

again, if you have a soundblaster it should come with vienna soundfont studio and you can edit the soundfonts and put together the best samples from each one. you can also download it from here:

http://www.soundblaster.com/soundfont/downloads.asp

i don't know if it works without a SB card, i'm pretty sure it didn't the last time i tried.

i'm sure that this lengthy thread wasn't what you were looking for but there's a lot of good information here that you would do well to consider. i spent years getting better and better soundfonts that sounded more realistic but i eventually realized i'd never be satisfied with them. so now i write music that requires them as little as possible while i try to make contact with people who have better sounding VSTs than me (or real instruments).

- jack the ex-cynic
#35
lawnranger
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RE: realistic sounding midi? 2007/06/24 16:11:49 (permalink)
I have been playing around with Garritan, mostly strings and some woodwinds. You have to pick and choose, some of them sound pretty decent and some do not. I am also a fan of PC Drummer Pro for drum sounds (bit of a mess getting them into SHS 6 tho). One of the features of PC Drummer Pro is the ability to adjust the hit levels and timing to a more human sound. Good luck

PS Anyone know where to get a good bagpipe sound?
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jamesg1213
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RE: realistic sounding midi? 2007/06/24 16:43:12 (permalink)
a good bagpipe sound?


Now there's an oxymoron! (just kidding..)

Actually, that's nigh on impossible, way too many nuances & variables to reproduce successfully...I tried to get somewhere near Northumbrian pipes earlier this year....gave up, just sounded like wasps inside a drainpipe.

 
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#37
jacktheexcynic
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RE: realistic sounding midi? 2007/06/24 16:50:37 (permalink)
i had a short 'celtic' phase and tried to find some decent uilleann pipes, no go on that either. the more expressive the instrument, the more impossible it is to fake.

- jack the ex-cynic
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jamesg1213
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RE: realistic sounding midi? 2007/06/24 16:57:35 (permalink)
uilleann pipes


Love that sound...have you heard any of Davy Spillane's work?

Here's one of him playing with Aly Bain on the fiddle - another superb player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPeoXH_Vw20

 
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: realistic sounding midi? 2007/06/24 17:07:57 (permalink)
that was pretty awesome. you can't beat the pipes for pure emotion. i've never heard davy spillane, i actually heard the uilleann pipes first on a few albums by a guy named michael card. he did christian inspirational music back when it was still allowed to have some kind of intelligent lyrical content, nuanced instrumental work and a variety of musical styles on the same album. he wrote some powerful songs but the ones i remember the most had the uilleann pipes in them...

- jack the ex-cynic
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Steve_Karl
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RE: realistic sounding midi? 2007/06/26 03:51:51 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: MandolinPicker


ORIGINAL: jamesg1213

it's all in the editing of the MIDI, not necessarily in the sound itself.


Any good sources on how to edit MIDI for realism? I can find a bunch on how to do MIDI recording, but nothing yet on how to nuance MIDI into sounding real.


Listen to the real thing.

Steve Karl
https://soundcloud.com/steve_karl
SPLAT 2017.01
#41
jacktheexcynic
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RE: realistic sounding midi? 2007/06/26 18:48:18 (permalink)
humanizing is important, getting a groove even more so. randomize velocities too. lengthen the midi note durations so they overlap with the next note, it can make the transitions between notes sound better. if you are any good at playing the keyboard you should play the parts but don't quantize too much.

i usually edit note velocities, start times and durations by hand (sometimes i'll start with a pre-existing groove, sometimes not) until the midi-based parts lock in with the rest of the music. if you are doing all midi work, this is harder but playing with note timings is a great way to start getting a feel for it.

- jack the ex-cynic
#42
Beagle
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RE: realistic sounding midi? 2007/06/27 09:25:45 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: MandolinPicker


ORIGINAL: jamesg1213

it's all in the editing of the MIDI, not necessarily in the sound itself.


Any good sources on how to edit MIDI for realism? I can find a bunch on how to do MIDI recording, but nothing yet on how to nuance MIDI into sounding real.

Here's a good tutorial on how to create orchestral instrument sounds in MIDI:
http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=77

http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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#43
MandolinPicker
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RE: realistic sounding midi? 2007/06/27 20:50:48 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Beagle
Here's a good tutorial on how to create orchestral instrument sounds in MIDI:
http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=77


WOW!! That's WAY more than a tutorial! That is like an entire semester or more for FREE. Thanks!

The Mandolin Picker
"Bless your hearts... and all your vital organs" - John Duffy
 
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#44
Roflcopter
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RE: realistic sounding midi? 2007/06/28 02:18:02 (permalink)
That is like an entire semester or more for FREE. Thanks!


And, even if you cannot understand it, there's a few great track symbols

[very handy link - bookmarked, thx]

I'm a perfectionist, and perfect is a skinned knee.
#45
deiseldave
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RE: realistic sounding midi? 2007/07/03 17:36:34 (permalink)
a good bagpipe sound?

Now there's an oxymoron! (just kidding..)


Funny. I heard a guy say once, that perfect pitch is the sound of an accordion crushing a banjo as you chuck it into a dumpster.

Back on topic. In my experience, since I am neither a drummer, nor a keyboardist, a certain amount of midi editing is demanded in order to add a little life to those type tracks. I have had pretty good luck with good soft-synths and samplers like BFD, B4, Bosendorfer 290, etc. But, like I said. Editing is required.
Here are a few thoughts that have shaped the way I handle these things, and helped minimize the amount of "soul destroying" midi tweaking I have to do. I have broken it into separate paragraphs for drums and keys, because I approach both differently, and so anybody who is set in thier approach for either, can easily skip that info.

Drums:
For now I play my parts on a DrumKat with sticks (but will move soon to a Korg Pad Kontrol with fingers). I focus on specific parts of the kit, and record real time midi in stages. For example, I'll record kick & snare in a pass (no fills yet), then hihat & cymbals, then toms, etc. I always play to a scratch track with vocals (acoustic guit & vox) so, my accents and feel are primarily supporting the vocals, and chord changes. Later, after bass guitar, and other instruments are added, I'll add or subtract drum stuff to finalize the drums role in the entire arrangement.
On the first pass (kick & snare), I'll set up pads for: kick, two separate snare hits (for flams), snare drag, and snare rim. I play this track for the best dynamic control I can muster. Even if it means sacrificing some timing. Then I quantize it. Then I manually correct any dynamic stuff that I could have done better. I'm shaping the tones of the snare and kick now by allowing them to be hit harder and softer. I tolerate the stiffness of the quantized timing for now, and will manually move some kick and snare notes later so that it feels good with the final tracks. But for now, I move on.
Second pass (hihat & cymbals). Here, I'm hoping for good dynamics and timing, because I don't want to quantize these. Perfectly quantized hihat and cymbals sound way too machine like to me. So I shoot for good timing first, and dynamics second. I'll punch in corrections until I have met my limitations, and then manually correct a few "out of bounds" velocities and hits (timing) in piano roll mode. No quantization.
At this point, I usually save toms, various fills, and subtle kick/snare groove adjustments until the rest of the songs tracks have taken shape.
Now, because you have a good dynamic range and feel built into your midi timing and velocities, your should be getting the subtle tonal changes that a multi-layered sampler like BFD offers. so when you have a soft snare drag, it's intimate, and a loud snare crack exites the room mics, etc. You should be able to mix your mic outputs, and process a bit (eq, compress, de-ess, distortion, whatever you like), and have a decent (though incomplete) drum track taking shape. At this point, I freeze the synth and move on (for now).
After the rest of the tracks are working good. I add in fills that work with the song, and re-examine the groove. This usually requires the most attention to detail in order to avoid a machine-like quality. So I will play my best on fills, and still have to tweek quite a bit (velocity and timing). But I'll hang in there until it's all grooving good (assuming my other tracks are grooving ok).
I then go through and correct anything a real drummer wouldn't play (hihat, tom, & snare at the same time, etc).
Usually I have a decent sounding drum track with about 8 hours of total investment. It's about as labor intensive as multitracking guitars, doing harmonies, etc.
Lastly, I burn a track of just drums, and ask one of my drummer friends to critique it, and offer pointers. This does two things. It helps me think more like a drummer, and starts the ball rolling in case I want to hire the drummer himself to play it down the road.

Keys:

Piano: This (to me) is the hardest of the keys to get to sound decent, and I avoid piano as an arrangement choice unless the song is just screaming for it. Here's what I've learned about sampled piano so far. Use the best samples you can afford. I use the Bosendorfer 290. It's probably not the best, but it was the best I could afford a few years ago (I'm probably due for something new... suggestions are welcome.)
I don't quantize piano. I will play what I can, pencil the rest in (in piano roll), and tweak velocities and timings until it sounds decent. When it sounds right, each note of a chord will typically have different velocities and timings, usually centered "around" the beat. With all the effort sampled piano takes, it never sounds like a real piano player at a real piano. But then, neither does a recording of a real piano player, playing a real piano (to me anyway).
So, I just try to get a decent "recorded" piano sound, and if I work my butt off, and don't set my expectations too high, I usually end up with a fairly beleivable track that, in the mix, usually doesn't make my skin crawl (too badly).
OK. I'm getting too tired, and can hear the thoughts of some readers willing me to shut up.
I do have a different approach to organ-esque stuff (particularly B4), that, if anyone is interested, I can post later on. Let me know, and I will. Otherwise, I'm shuttin' up here, boss !
Oh, before I shut up, can I just say one more thing ?? I try to think like a drummer, or a piano player when I'm putting together those types of tracks. If I'm putting together a piano part, I think, "how would Ray Charles sound playing this", or on a drum part "how would Ringo sound...", etc. Then, I just do my best to make that sound develop. It sounds like an over simplification, but that type of thinking has helped me a lot.
Oh! Oh! Before I shut up, shuttin' up, can I say just one more thing ? Just one more thing, and then I'll shut up. Here it comes....
Shut up !
post edited by deiseldave - 2007/07/03 17:42:46
#46
jamesg1213
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RE: realistic sounding midi? 2007/07/03 17:52:41 (permalink)
Drums:
For now I play my parts on a DrumKat with sticks (but will move soon to a Korg Pad Kontrol with fingers). I focus on specific parts of the kit, and record real time midi in stages. For example, I'll record kick & snare in a pass (no fills yet), then hihat & cymbals, then toms, etc. I always play to a scratch track with vocals (acoustic guit & vox) so, my accents and feel are primarily supporting the vocals, and chord changes. Later, after bass guitar, and other instruments are added, I'll add or subtract drum stuff to finalize the drums role in the entire arrangement.
On the first pass (kick & snare), I'll set up pads for: kick, two separate snare hits (for flams), snare drag, and snare rim. I play this track for the best dynamic control I can muster. Even if it means sacrificing some timing. Then I quantize it. Then I manually correct any dynamic stuff that I could have done better. I'm shaping the tones of the snare and kick now by allowing them to be hit harder and softer. I tolerate the stiffness of the quantized timing for now, and will manually move some kick and snare notes later so that it feels good with the final tracks. But for now, I move on.
Second pass (hihat & cymbals). Here, I'm hoping for good dynamics and timing, because I don't want to quantize these. Perfectly quantized hihat and cymbals sound way too machine like to me. So I shoot for good timing first, and dynamics second. I'll punch in corrections until I have met my limitations, and then manually correct a few "out of bounds" velocities and hits (timing) in piano roll mode. No quantization.
At this point, I usually save toms, various fills, and subtle kick/snare groove adjustments until the rest of the songs tracks have taken shape.
Now, because you have a good dynamic range and feel built into your midi timing and velocities, your should be getting the subtle tonal changes that a multi-layered sampler like BFD offers. so when you have a soft snare drag, it's intimate, and a loud snare crack exites the room mics, etc. You should be able to mix your mic outputs, and process a bit (eq, compress, de-ess, distortion, whatever you like), and have a decent (though incomplete) drum track taking shape. At this point, I freeze the synth and move on (for now).
After the rest of the tracks are working good. I add in fills that work with the song, and re-examine the groove. This usually requires the most attention to detail in order to avoid a machine-like quality. So I will play my best on fills, and still have to tweek quite a bit (velocity and timing). But I'll hang in there until it's all grooving good (assuming my other tracks are grooving ok).
I then go through and correct anything a real drummer wouldn't play (hihat, tom, & snare at the same time, etc).
Usually I have a decent sounding drum track with about 8 hours of total investment. It's about as labor intensive as multitracking guitars, doing harmonies, etc.
Lastly, I burn a track of just drums, and ask one of my drummer friends to critique it, and offer pointers. This does two things. It helps me think more like a drummer, and starts the ball rolling in case I want to hire the drummer himself to play it down the road.




Phew...Dave, put some years back on your life and call this guy

http://www.michaelsharps.com/

 
Jyemz
 
 
 



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#47
deiseldave
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RE: realistic sounding midi? 2007/07/04 08:55:44 (permalink)
Phew...Dave, put some years back on your life and call this guy

He's probably very good. But $1K per 10 songs is money I'd like to save. Plus, I like having a drummer who does, pretty much exactly what I say (BFD). Like I said, I have drummer friends that would do the job, but it's been my experience that communicating all the nuances that you want, and rehearsing will easily eat up more time than tweaking out BFD.
I probably have control issues, and should talk to someone. Perhaps the $1K I save on the next 10 songs by doing my own drum tracks will help finance a phone call to Dr. Phil.
No doubt, the good Doctor would simply say "how's that workin' for ya ?", and then hand me off to a secretary for bill processing.
#48
fep
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RE: realistic sounding midi? 2007/07/04 14:29:47 (permalink)
Dave,

I also like the approach of playing in your midi parts, like playing in the drum parts as you mentioned. You automatically get it 'humanized' that way, and at the same time you improve your understanding of drum parts, and you improve your rhythm chops. There's a lot of repitition in music anyways, so I usually spend most of my time on just a few measures, do some copies and then later add some fills. I use a keyboard controller but have some type of drum controller on my wish list.
#49
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