running two M- Audio delta 1010's?

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leftcoastproductions
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2005/04/01 16:09:42 (permalink)

running two M- Audio delta 1010's?

wondering if anyone here has done this and if so how do they like it? and does the M-audio patchbay work for both 1010's?

I mainly would like to have another 1010 to be able to run more of my outboard gear......
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    glazfolk
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/01 20:25:55 (permalink)
    Hello leftcoast,

    I don't have two Delta 1010s myself, but one of the studio computers has one. I can verify, however, that people have worked successfully with two quite successfully.

    You have to use the "multi" inputs and outputs when you're selecting these in Sonar, I'm not sure exactly how the patchbay wokks ... but your Delta Control Panel will list both cards over on the right (just below the Save, Load buttons).
    Maybe someone else can tell you more if I post this reply and bump it up the list for you....
    post edited by glazfolk - 2005/04/01 20:26:26

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    Hawky
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/01 22:33:43 (permalink)
    Yes, I have just installed 2 M-Audio 1010 cards and they work fine with SONAR using ASIO drivers that the book tells you doesn't work. There is a good set up description on the M-Audio web site. I really like it... Check it out.


    Hawky
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    leftcoastproductions
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/01 22:38:54 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Hawky

    Yes, I have just installed 2 M-Audio 1010 cards and they work fine with SONAR using ASIO drivers that the book tells you doesn't work. There is a good set up description on the M-Audio web site. I really like it... Check it out.


    Hawky


    yea I checked that out on M Audio's site.....looks great......they dont' however say how the virtual patchbay works? also I heard its hard to distinguish which track is which? did you have to find certain IRQ's to make them work well eachother? how is your latency?

    thanks
    Brock
    #4
    whattarush
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/02 01:48:41 (permalink)

    your Delta Control Panel will list both cards over on the right (just below the Save, Load buttons).


    Yes, this is where you can select which 1010 that the control panel edits. Just select the button to the left of the listed device. I have two 1010,s and they work perfectly. You must use WDM drivers though in order to use them simultaneously.

    "When your moving in the positive, your destination is the brightest star"!!! www.elmarqrecords.com/ www.reverbnation.com/label/elmarqrecordsllc" www.facebook.com/pages/ElMarq-Records/160103362281 "Never look down on anyone UNLESS you're picking them up!"
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    DonM
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/02 08:13:42 (permalink)
    Hawky and whatarush:

    I'm confused - your posts seem to contradict - one says ASIO dual cards works (which I heard will never work) and another post says you must use WDM - are both answers right. If so that is very cool and how does it happen?

    let me know


    -D
    #6
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/02 08:55:36 (permalink)
    Hi,
    I recently helped a studio roll their ADATs out the door .. and they
    went with 3 Delta 1010LTs. Aside from wiring up the horrific
    squid cables off the back of the 1010LT, we had absolutely zero
    trouble with Sonar using the WDM/KS driver. We tried the ASIO
    driver to see if it had any lower latency, but we experienced
    no appreciable differences between the two drivers.
    We decided to use WDM/KS because: you don't have to bring
    up the M-Audio panel to change frequently altered settings and
    WDM/KS is much kinder for multi-app setups.
    Regarding the question of ASIO with multiple cards... you can
    have multiple cards with ASIO .. if the same driver supports it.
    What you cannot have is multiple ASIO drivers resident. So, if you try
    a vendorA ASIO driver with a vendorB ASIO driver ... not going to
    work ... if your vendorA driver supports multiple vendorA cards / boxes,
    then you're good.

    Hope that helps .. oh .. and download the latest M-Audio driver for the 1010 ..
    I think it's version 48a or something like that (if your 1010 didn't ship with
    that on the ROM) ... there are some notable bug fixes which you will
    probably wish to have.

    jeff

    ps: since you're in the bay area, if you get stuck, shoot me an email (via
    profile) .. having just been through the exercise, it's fresh in my mind ;-)
    post edited by jmarkham - 2005/04/02 09:10:17
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    Steven Bell
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/02 10:13:22 (permalink)
    they dont' however say how the virtual patchbay works? also I heard its hard to distinguish which track is which? did you have to find certain IRQ's to make them work well eachother? how is your latency?


    I have been using two delta 1010's for several years now. The 2nd is slaved to the first via S/PDIF.

    I don't know what you mean by "virtual patchbay". There is a control panel which you use to configure the units and to do a certain amount of signal routing.

    You cannot route audio from one unit to the other.
    You cannot route/mix the inputs to anything other than h/w out 1/2. You can route the input of a port to its output, but there is no volume control.

    Using the standard installation it can be difficult to tell on which unit a given port is.
    I have posted steps on this forum for shortening these port names as well as having the name start with the unit name (I use "A" and "B").

    Latency is great. Using the smallest DMA buffer size, latency is only 1.5ms.

    If you have a modern motherboard and use Windows XP, IRQ's will not be an issue.

    Steven Bell
    Owner, Chief Engineer
    Top of the Hill Music
    http://www.topofthehillmusic.com/
    #8
    DonM
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/02 10:53:16 (permalink)
    Jeff:
    Thanks for the very informative reply.

    -D
    #9
    leftcoastproductions
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/02 12:12:36 (permalink)
    very good info here! thanks Hawky,Jeff and Steve for your thoughts

    Hawky do you have yours setup via spidf if not which way are you running?

    in regards to the virtual patchbay I was talking about how one might use it........it seems like it would be ideal if your running the Delta's for processing audio that is in the box and have hardware(compressors,Eq,etc) setup in a loop I don't know maybe I'm missing something

    Steve your getting 1.5ms of latency? I barely get 5.8ms and often have to bump up to 11.6,17.4,and 23.2 when I start adding vst's........I try to make it a habit if I have a desired sound with a vst to clone it then bounce it archiving the original just in case I need it back.....then again Spectrasonics,Moog Modulars,and Waves Reverbs are not very picky when it comes to eating up your ram

    #10
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/02 13:56:42 (permalink)
    The 2nd is slaved to the first via S/PDIF.

    If this is for clock sync, I was told this was unnecessary by M-Audio .. they said
    that if the 1010s are hosted on the same computer, they will sync clocks through
    the driver/bus. I believe this is the case, otherwise, we would have experienced the
    usual and very noticeable jitter.
    jeff
    #11
    keith
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/02 14:10:45 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: jmarkham

    The 2nd is slaved to the first via S/PDIF.

    If this is for clock sync, I was told this was unnecessary by M-Audio .. they said
    that if the 1010s are hosted on the same computer, they will sync clocks through
    the driver/bus. I believe this is the case, otherwise, we would have experienced the
    usual and very noticeable jitter.
    jeff


    I believe that's the case as well. You need to select the "multi-card synch" option on the hardware tab.

    regarding ASIO: m-audio is kind enough to run multiple m-audio cards under a single ASIO driver, so you can run up to 4 cards (I believe even different models) under ASIO.

    - Keith
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    MKS
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/02 14:14:27 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: keith


    ORIGINAL: jmarkham

    The 2nd is slaved to the first via S/PDIF.

    If this is for clock sync, I was told this was unnecessary by M-Audio .. they said
    that if the 1010s are hosted on the same computer, they will sync clocks through
    the driver/bus. I believe this is the case, otherwise, we would have experienced the
    usual and very noticeable jitter.
    jeff


    I believe that's the case as well. You need to select the "multi-card synch" option on the hardware tab.

    regarding ASIO: m-audio is kind enough to run multiple m-audio cards under a single ASIO driver, so you can run up to 4 cards (I believe even different models) under ASIO.

    - Keith


    Wow, let me make sure I'm understanding this correctly. I have 3 1010's in my PC. I do NOT need to connect them via SPDIF cables to have them synced? I would check them myself, but I'm currently 800 miles away from my gear.
    post edited by MKS - 2005/04/02 14:15:06

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    #13
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/02 14:51:46 (permalink)
    You need to select the "multi-card synch" option on the hardware tab.


    Exactly .. and that's why you're going to want that 48a driver as well ....

    and MKS, unless we were remarkably luck and M-Audio lied to us too, I'm virtually certain
    you can reserve your S/PDIF I/O for it's higher purpose....

    One other tip ... in the Options->Audio->Drivers section, we unchecked the
    "Multi" input and output drivers ... they're not worth the hassle .. and clutter up
    the input and output popup in the audio track.

    And .. while I'm on the subject .. Cakewalk, can we please be able to label
    the I/O to something that we'll remember like you can in PT?
    "M-Audio Delta 1010 L 1/2 -1 Multi" doesn't have that catchy jingle
    to it for me and I'd prefer to rename it. ... Maybe if the user could label the
    I/O, installing a new audio device wouldn't mess up every project/template one has
    created too.

    jeff
    post edited by jmarkham - 2005/04/02 14:54:37
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    keith
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/02 16:59:18 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: jmarkham
    and MKS, unless we were remarkably luck and M-Audio lied to us too, I'm virtually certain you can reserve your S/PDIF I/O for it's higher purpose....


    Here's what the m-audio confusionbase... er, I mean knowledgebase says about synching multiple cards:


    Q: How do I configure Multiple Delta Series cards to run together?
    A:
    - You will need a 75 Ohm S/PDIF COAX Digital Audio cable for the external synchronization.
    - Define one of the Delta Series cards as the card running in Word Clock Master mode. Best would be to choose the card that doesn't share an Interrupt (IRQ) with any other device (check the Device Manager for IRQ sharing). When using a Macintosh Computer running MacOS 9, choose the card in the lowest PCI slot as the Word Clock Master. (Delta Multi-card setups are not yet supported in MacOS X).
    - Set the selected Word Clock Master card to "Internal Xtal" in the Delta Control Panel's "Hardware Settings" tab. In the Patchbay/Router tab, set this card to "Monitor Mixer" for the "HW Out S/PDIF". Activate "Single and in sync".
    - Connect the digital output of this card with the digital input of the second Delta Series card. Set the Master Clock of the second card to S/PDIF ("Hardware Settings" in the Delta Control Panel). Activate Multicard Mode.
    - If you are using three Delta Series cards, the second card should also be set to "HW Out S/PDIF" for the "Monitor Mixer" in the Patchbay/Router tab.
    Make the same settings for Delta card #3 and # 4.

    If Delta Audiophile 192 card is part of your setup, make sure to use this card as the last device in the synchronization chain.

    The Operating Systems Windows 2000/XP support "KernelSync" and do not necessarily need the external connection using S/PDIF. Delta 44 can only be stacked in these Operating Systems, since this card does not have a S/PDIF connector. For this type of Operation, all cards have to be set to "Multiple Card Sync".


    They always mention synching through spdif. Why not word clock? Or is that not the intent of the word clock connectors?

    The highlighted section is what Jeff was talking about, but it's not really clear whether that's for all driver models, or WDM KS only. I think it's for all driver types, and I've been running ASIO drivers with no external synch connectors for a while.

    I've run a simple multitrack test recording 4 tracks of a 440Hz sine across two 1010s for like 10 minutes, using ASIO. The waves stay in synch for the entirety, so I assume that means the input devices are "in synch". Is this a valid test? Is there a better way to measure potential drift differences between the two devices?



    One other tip ... in the Options->Audio->Drivers section, we unchecked the "Multi" input and output drivers


    Another point of confusion -- it was never clear to me what the "mult" drivers were for. The documentation seemed to imply they are required for certain things (perhaps multi-card or multiclient), and depending on who you talk to on one of these user forums they're either preferred or not preferred. In any event, I've never used them.


    And .. while I'm on the subject .. Cakewalk, can we please be able to label the I/O to something that we'll remember like you can in PT?


    You can do this in samplitude as well. Very handy.
    #15
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/02 17:57:52 (permalink)
    I've also wondered why the WordClock wasn't the recommended synching method ..
    the BNC and shielding is much better .. so you'd think clock be
    cleaner .. that's why I kind of think the knowledge base is out-of-date.

    And the multi-card clock sync worked just fine with the WDM/KS driver ... no jitter
    at all ... (well ... that's a relative statement.. but none that I could
    detect).

    My understanding was the "multi" was for multi-app/client .. but that scared
    me, so we didn't use 'em ;-( I havent't noticed what the difference is, they
    seem pretty much synonomous.

    But .. it worked .. and I'm not asking too many questions ;-)

    jeff
    post edited by jmarkham - 2005/04/02 17:58:20
    #16
    MKS
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/02 18:02:57 (permalink)
    All I can say, this thread has made me very happy. Thanks for the info.


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    #17
    Lerker
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/02 19:47:12 (permalink)
    I synced two 1010s via spdif for a few years--there were folks running "drift" tests at that time and it was widely accepted that it needed to be done.
    I now use BNCs, and the difference is quite audible to me. Take it for what it's worth...
    #18
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/02 20:21:09 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Lerker

    I synced two 1010s via spdif for a few years--there were folks running "drift" tests at that time and it was widely accepted that it needed to be done.
    I now use BNCs, and the difference is quite audible to me. Take it for what it's worth...


    Out of curiosity, was that before the driver had Multicard Sync option? I believe that's a fairly recent addition
    in the driver family ... maybe not .. but I don't remember seeing it until relatively recently.

    And I'm a big believer in BNC for clock transmission too....

    jeff
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    tazman
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/02 20:28:50 (permalink)
    I have been running 2 Delta 1010's since Sonar 2XL. They run great together. I have them connected via BNC. I set one to use BNC (Wordclock) as master clock and select single on both of them.
    post edited by tazman - 2006/04/10 22:02:17
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    tazman
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/02 20:30:08 (permalink)
    it's been there since .27, since that is what I am runnig and it's there.
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    tazman
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/02 20:31:30 (permalink)
    How do you do that? Do you just connect them via BNC, out one into the other one and that's it or do you have an external clock?

    Thanks,
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/02 21:54:15 (permalink)
    out one into the other one

    yea .. exactly .. just take the word clock out from one to
    the other in and set the second to take it's clock from the
    first ..

    that said, I still don't think it's necessary on the same host ;-)

    jeff
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    Hawky
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/03 04:06:12 (permalink)
    Well, I started out using WDM drivers and eveyting worked okay until Microsoft Loaded SP-2 on my computer then it started acting funny. The message from Microsft said it was a driver issue. Sooo, I changed to ASIO and everything has worked fine since. So, I don't do anyomore Microsft upgrades...

    Hawky

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    Hawky
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/03 04:12:05 (permalink)
    Yes, I am set up using SPIDF all the way. It was a little confussing at first because the First Card to receive SPIDF shows up as Card # 2 when I assign outputs to a track. And when I assign MIDI it seems reversed as well. However, everyting works okay; knocking on a woody here...


    Hawky

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    b3gsus@msn.com
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/03 06:26:59 (permalink)
    Jeff & Keith, I use & have used Wordclock with 2 M-Audio Cards with very little problem.... The Wordclock is by far the more stable of all for syncing your entire Studio.... I've upgraded to the Fireface 800 which offers it's own proprietory Sync Clock & it is very stable but ultimately the dedicated Wordclock is the Best way to go.....
    NOTE: I did have 2 RPC-1 cards & a Audiophile 2496 card all working together in Harmony until I upgraded my Computer & then the magical workaround that the M-Audio Support Team originally set my old system up with to run all 3 M-Audio Soundcards in ASIO,,,,, suddenly became an, "UNKNOWN" & neither Roland or M-Audio could/would pursue helping me to get them all jive'n together again.....Roland has Discontinued the RPC-1s so they are defaulting any/all support back to M-Audio who developed the cards for Roland..... NC Wildman
    ORIGINAL: keith


    ORIGINAL: jmarkham
    and MKS, unless we were remarkably luck and M-Audio lied to us too, I'm virtually certain you can reserve your S/PDIF I/O for it's higher purpose....


    Here's what the m-audio confusionbase... er, I mean knowledgebase says about synching multiple cards:


    Q: How do I configure Multiple Delta Series cards to run together?
    A:
    - You will need a 75 Ohm S/PDIF COAX Digital Audio cable for the external synchronization.
    - Define one of the Delta Series cards as the card running in Word Clock Master mode. Best would be to choose the card that doesn't share an Interrupt (IRQ) with any other device (check the Device Manager for IRQ sharing). When using a Macintosh Computer running MacOS 9, choose the card in the lowest PCI slot as the Word Clock Master. (Delta Multi-card setups are not yet supported in MacOS X).
    - Set the selected Word Clock Master card to "Internal Xtal" in the Delta Control Panel's "Hardware Settings" tab. In the Patchbay/Router tab, set this card to "Monitor Mixer" for the "HW Out S/PDIF". Activate "Single and in sync".
    - Connect the digital output of this card with the digital input of the second Delta Series card. Set the Master Clock of the second card to S/PDIF ("Hardware Settings" in the Delta Control Panel). Activate Multicard Mode.
    - If you are using three Delta Series cards, the second card should also be set to "HW Out S/PDIF" for the "Monitor Mixer" in the Patchbay/Router tab.
    Make the same settings for Delta card #3 and # 4.

    If Delta Audiophile 192 card is part of your setup, make sure to use this card as the last device in the synchronization chain.

    The Operating Systems Windows 2000/XP support "KernelSync" and do not necessarily need the external connection using S/PDIF. Delta 44 can only be stacked in these Operating Systems, since this card does not have a S/PDIF connector. For this type of Operation, all cards have to be set to "Multiple Card Sync".


    They always mention synching through spdif. Why not word clock? Or is that not the intent of the word clock connectors?

    The highlighted section is what Jeff was talking about, but it's not really clear whether that's for all driver models, or WDM KS only. I think it's for all driver types, and I've been running ASIO drivers with no external synch connectors for a while.

    I've run a simple multitrack test recording 4 tracks of a 440Hz sine across two 1010s for like 10 minutes, using ASIO. The waves stay in synch for the entirety, so I assume that means the input devices are "in synch". Is this a valid test? Is there a better way to measure potential drift differences between the two devices?



    One other tip ... in the Options->Audio->Drivers section, we unchecked the "Multi" input and output drivers


    Another point of confusion -- it was never clear to me what the "mult" drivers were for. The documentation seemed to imply they are required for certain things (perhaps multi-card or multiclient), and depending on who you talk to on one of these user forums they're either preferred or not preferred. In any event, I've never used them.


    And .. while I'm on the subject .. Cakewalk, can we please be able to label the I/O to something that we'll remember like you can in PT?


    You can do this in samplitude as well. Very handy.

    NOTE: DON'T BELIEVE ALL THE PRINTED DOCUMENTATION INCLUDED WITH M-AUDIO & CERTAINLY CHECK ANY/ALL OTHERS!! as I've been informed by the M-Audi Techies that some of the original Documentation was indeed, "FICTIONAL"
    post edited by b3gsus@msn.com - 2005/04/03 06:31:34

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    #26
    Steven Bell
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/03 13:32:46 (permalink)
    in regards to the virtual patchbay I was talking about how one might use it........it seems like it would be ideal if your running the Delta's for processing audio that is in the box and have hardware(compressors,Eq,etc) setup in a loop I don't know maybe I'm missing something

    Steve your getting 1.5ms of latency? I barely get 5.8ms and often have to bump up to 11.6,17.4,and 23.2 when I start adding vst's........I try to make it a habit if I have a desired sound with a vst to clone it then bounce it archiving the original just in case I need it back.....then again Spectrasonics,Moog Modulars,and Waves Reverbs are not very picky when it comes to eating up your ram


    Brock,

    The delta control panel will not help you route your hardware outboard gear.

    Unless I am recording a soft synth or using input monitoring, I keep the latency around 20ms. There is no need for low latency otherwise.

    Steven
    #27
    Steven Bell
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/03 13:36:31 (permalink)
    If this is for clock sync, I was told this was unnecessary by M-Audio .. they said
    that if the 1010s are hosted on the same computer, they will sync clocks through
    the driver/bus. I believe this is the case, otherwise, we would have experienced the
    usual and very noticeable jitter.


    This is news to me. Sounds like some testing is in order. I read the M-Audio information (lower in this thread) with interest. Like others have said, their documentation is not always reliable.

    And I've heard more than once that it is best to use "single and in sync" (even if you have more than one card).

    Steven
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    MKS
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/03 13:44:26 (permalink)
    It amazes me how much info is contradictory in this thread.

    THIS SPACE FOR RENT
    #29
    Steven Bell
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    RE: running two M- Audio delta 1010's? 2005/04/03 13:47:04 (permalink)
    One other tip ... in the Options->Audio->Drivers section, we unchecked the
    "Multi" input and output drivers ... they're not worth the hassle .. and clutter up
    the input and output popup in the audio track.

    And .. while I'm on the subject .. Cakewalk, can we please be able to label
    the I/O to something that we'll remember like you can in PT?
    "M-Audio Delta 1010 L 1/2 -1 Multi" doesn't have that catchy jingle
    to it for me and I'd prefer to rename it. ...


    Actually, if you record more than one track at a time, you'll want to use the "multi" ports rather than the others.
    They are coded to provide closer sync and also work more efficiently than when recording multiple tracks with the non-multi ports.

    I've posted step-by-steps instructions on this web forum on how to rename your delta ports.

    Steven
    #30
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