sm57 for recording acoustic guitar

i'm thinking about getting an sm57 for recording my ovation guitar (perhaps in tandem with direct recording from the preamp). i already have an sm58 which i use for vocals but tends not to sound so good with the guitar (also, i can't seem to get enough quiet gain to make it worthwhile). i've searched a bit through the forum and m.f. reviews found the following bits of information:

1. the sm57 is a great all-around mic.
2. people use it to record acoustic guitar, but the result sounds better in a dense mix than a light one.
3. it (like many dynamic mics) needs a lot of quiet gain (thus, a good preamp) to get a good signal to noise ratio.
4. people are generally divided on how it works with vocals.

i have a presonus tubepre and a mackie 1202vlz mixer which i could use for a preamp. the tubepre is a step in the right direction but it's not exactly the quietest thing ever at high gain. the mackie seems to be a little quieter.

my recording environment isn't the quietest place so i don't think a condenser would be a good idea, plus they are a bit more expensive than i'm willing to buy at this point. i record my own vocals and acoustic and electric guitars, and that's it. i use a line6 pod for the electric, don't even have an amp (live in an apartment). budget is fairly tight so "get such and such preamp for $1000" is not going to help me.

my recordings generally have at least drums/bass (soundfonts or vst), a couple guitars and my own vox, but the acoustic gets it's share of solo time. i know i can't do pro-level stuff where i'm at right now, so that's why i'm leaning toward the 57. if i decide to get a small electric amp i could use it for that as well.

basically i need to know: in this situation, would you recommend a sm57 or wait until i can afford a decent preamp and a couple entry-level condensors?

thanks in advance.

One mic to consider, and save up for, Shure SM-81. Small diaphram condenser, but cardioid, leaves more of the room sounds out. Sounds the best IMO on acoustic.

ORIGINAL: TheFingers

One mic to consider, and save up for, Shure SM-81. Small diaphram condenser, but cardioid, leaves more of the room sounds out. Sounds the best IMO on acoustic.

yeah pretty expensive though. =) maybe i can find a used on ebay... thanks for the info.

ORIGINAL: Monkey
I use a cheap entry level condenser with a cheap entry level mixer for phantom power (both Behringer), and it's a great learning tool that probably cost me $220 total. My theory is that if you can make great recordings with these, you'll be in heaven when you move up to something more pro or semi-pro. A 57 will do the job though, and it's always good to experiment using the "wrong" microphones for different applications.

which behringer condensor do you use? if it's in the sub-$150 range i might just get it. i'm mostly concerned that i won't be able to get enough gain out of the sm57 (with my current equipment) to make it useful for acoustic guitar, based on my experience with the sm58.

I'm not divided on anything regarding the SM57

the SM57 is a great vocal mic and I have recorded more than a few "keeper" vocal tracks with it. I don't care what anyone says. It's a great workhorse vocal mic and works well in a variety of situations. I find it to be a secret weapon for those whisky voice singers. Condesor mics are sometimes a little too revealing.

And it works well for acoustic guitar. Frankly it works well on anything. There's really nothing it doesn't work on. Nothing. Would it be my first choice for situation xyz? maybe not but I'll bet I could record an entire album using nothing but SM57's and it would sound great. Look, this is already way too much debate about a $100 microphone. You could probably find one for $50 on Ebay. You need one in your arsenal for no other reason than it's an industry standard. It'll serve you well for years to come.

I have a Shure SM57 I have had for 33 years. Replaced the cartridge once. All around great workhorse. I use it for live micing of acoustic guitar and Resonater. But it usually is what I use to mic my 18 watt Boogie when doing large rooms. I would recomend everyone own at least one 57........................

I think you shuold just go ahead and get the 57. While you can get a condenser in the same price range it isnt going to be a terribly good condenser. With the 57 you can rest assured that some of your favorite bands of all time had at least one of these on "that" record.
On acoustic it may be a little thick sounding. Whcih may be good or not for your style? You might also consider getting the beta57. Its a little brighter than a normal 57 and a little louder signal strength. Also about $40 more, but Shure has a rebate going on right now!
PS stay away from shure PG series
PPS for good condensers check out Oktava's. They are pretty cool for the $$

ORIGINAL: deiseldave

i already have an sm58 which i use for vocals but tends not to sound so good with the guitar (also, i can't seem to get enough quiet gain to make it worthwhile).

If you don't like the 58 on acoustic, you probably won't like the 57 either. They are pretty similar in tone.
I normally use small diaphragm condensers for acoustic guitars. Rode NT5 is my "bang for buck" pick.

I'd agree. The SM58 and SM57 both use the same mic element. The differences are in the windcreens and the mic bodys. If you want something to sound different from an SM58, you probably won't have better luck with an SM57. I would get a condenser mic, just so that you have the option of something more sensetive with higher output. Better yet get a condenser mic AND an SM57, cause the 57 is probably the one mic I and some other people would pick if they had to pick just one mic to own.

* condenser mics in this range are going to be cheap-sounding, fragile, or both.

The MXL 603s is an outstanding, and very inexpensive small-diaphragm condenser mic. Compared to the SM57 it will deliever a more detailed, crisper, less powerful, more nuanced sound, not as bold as the SM57, but smoother and more delicate, more "hi-fi" sounding.

* i don't have a quiet environment (apartment, with fridge nearby, and dell precision workstation not exactly dead quiet), so a condenser may pick up more than i want.

The SM57 is one of the best mics for useful background noise rejection. It's a very forgiving, very easy-to-use mic for close-mic situations. It has an intuitive, musical directionality and proximity effect, and it has a very high-contrast sort of "technicolor" sound that seems to magically bring out what you do want, and downplay what you don't. There is a reason why it is the most widely-used mic in the world. It's great for quick and easy point-it-at-the-source-and-go recording. Condenser mics will generally tend to be less forgiving about background noise, but that increased sensitivity is part of what makes them good at what they do.

the beta57 adds a bit more top end response (16khz vs 15khz), could be better than the 58 for my vocals, which could use some more high end.

the primary thing that makes the SM57 an "instrument" mic is not its frequency response, it's the tight directionality-- you can get some awesome vocal sounds with an SM57, especially with "power" vocals, or singers with more character and resonance that you want to pull up front (think Tom Waits, Louis Armstrong, Joe Cocker). But if the singer moves their head around while singing it could be a problem. The SM57's directionality is highly prized for isolating individual sources on a busy, noisy soundstage, but most "vocal" mics have a somewhat wider pickup pattern to allow for head movement.

The beta 57 is marketed as sort of a more "high end" version of the conventional SM57, but it's safe to say that the regular 57 is far and away the more widely-used of the two, even in very high-budget situations. The beta 57 is kind of "in-between" the ballsy, out-front sound of the SM57, and the more sensitive, detailed "studio sounding" condensers and ribbon mics. I think it is most useful as a live mic where you want to reproduce some of the intimate, airy sound of studio recordings while still having the easy live useability and durability of a 57. It wouldn't be my first pick for a studio mic, but who knows? Everybody's different, and it's all a matter of taste.

a 57 is a standard, i'll want one eventually.

The 57 is not merely a standard, it is quite possibly the best all-around microphone ever made. There are plenty of knowledgable people who would pick it as their "desert island" mic, regardless of budget. In fact I think it's safe to say this would top the list if you polled professional audio engineers. Maybe not with a majority vote, but with a strong plurality. The fact that it happens to be inexpensive is just a bonus. You read tons of reviews where somebody says that some $300 LD condenser sounds almost as good as their U47 or whatever, but the SM57 is the SM57 and nobody even bothers to review the knockoffs. Chances are that half the mics used on half of your favorite records were SM57s, even on million-dollar records where they could easily afford to U87s on every instrument and drum kit piece. You might never own a Neve console or an AKG C12, but the SM57 sits right up there as a world-class piece of equipment.

my acoustic is an ovation (shallow body), so lots of mids and highs to begin with - a little thickness would be nice for solo work and fingerpicking.

Actually, lots of mids and highs are kind of the order of the day for popular acoustic guitar sounds. Most modern rock/pop/R&B/metal acoustic tracks are heavily low-cut and high-boosted to cut through today's dense, hyped, compressed mixes. Looking for extra "meat" in your acoustic guitar is not a bad thing, but it's going to be a move away from the popular contemporary trend.

Finally-- SM57 would be a great pick for powerful, ballsy, jangly acoustic rock (think Pete Townsend or Neil Diamond). It might be a little uncooperative for more modern, expressive, string-squeaky, subtly resonant acoustic sounds. For these you would want a condenser or a ribbon mic.

Cheers.

thanks yep for the detailed reply. the only question i have left is whether i'll be able to get decent signal to noise ratio out of the 57. right now, with my 58, it's near impossible for me to get the kind of signal i want without the noise coming in. i realize that the 57 will be better as it rejects more noise but i'm still wondering if it will be a problem. i know in other threads it has been mentioned that the 57 needs quite a bit of gain to pick up enough signal.

i'm tempted just to buy it right now though and find out. =)

thanks again everyone for your replies.

ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic

thanks yep for the detailed reply. the only question i have left is whether i'll be able to get decent signal to noise ratio out of the 57. right now, with my 58, it's near impossible for me to get the kind of signal i want without the noise coming in. i realize that the 57 will be better as it rejects more noise but i'm still wondering if it will be a problem. i know in other threads it has been mentioned that the 57 needs quite a bit of gain to pick up enough signal.

i'm tempted just to buy it right now though and find out. =)

thanks again everyone for your replies.

The SM57 (and its Beta version) is very directional and needs some help in the output stage from a level standpoint...It also has a lot of proximity characteristics (close miking results in better low end response...distant miking will result in a "thin" sound)...It's a great mic for certain vocalists, live performances, miking amps, and close miking snares & toms...I still contend that it's not a good choice for acoustic guitar (as the primary mic)...

Should you have a few SM57's in your mic cabinet? Absolutely! But, would you want to use them to record a string section or a grand piano? No (unless you're looking for a REALLY strange sound)...The SM57 is, without a doubt, a staple in almost every major studio in the world, but it is NOT the "go-to" mic for instruments such as acoustic guitar...

ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic

thanks yep for the detailed reply. the only question i have left is whether i'll be able to get decent signal to noise ratio out of the 57. right now, with my 58, it's near impossible for me to get the kind of signal i want without the noise coming in...

What kind of "noise" are you talking about? Background noise, like the dishwasher and the neighbors, or hiss, hum, or some other kind of noise?

"Signal/noise ratio" commonly refers to the latter.

The SM57 is one of the best out there at rejecting background noise, and it has very respectably low self-noise. If you're getting hum or hiss those are totally different problems than getting traffic sounds from the street.

Cheers.

ORIGINAL: yep

To anyone who's thinking of getting a Beta 57, I would suggest instead picking up a used SM57 and an inexpensive SD condenser, like the MXL 603s. Should be about the same price.

Cheers.

there was a time when musician's friend was throwing in MXL's for free for anything over
$250 or so. i got a couple of them ... and they sat in the box for a while while i figured what
to do with them. i needed an extra mic to mic an amp and grabbed on of the MXL's and
was pleasantly surprised with the sound. they're a little on the bright side .. but they
sound pretty damn good considering what they cost ... in my case .. nothing. i wonder
if they're still giving 'em away?

jeff

ORIGINAL: Rev. Jem

ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic

i'm tempted just to buy it right now though and find out. =)

Go for it, Jack - you'd be mad not to.

As an aside, did you get your crossing delay problem fully fixed ? No further word in that thread.

yeah i need to update that thread - chaz's recommendation helped quite a bit though. the mono sound is still a bit metallic sounding but i think it's passable now.

ORIGINAL: yep
What kind of "noise" are you talking about? Background noise, like the dishwasher and the neighbors, or hiss, hum, or some other kind of noise?

"Signal/noise ratio" commonly refers to the latter.

The SM57 is one of the best out there at rejecting background noise, and it has very respectably low self-noise. If you're getting hum or hiss those are totally different problems than getting traffic sounds from the street.

Cheers.

i am talking mostly about hiss and hum. mostly hiss though. through random selection i've finally gotten my signal chain to the place where hum is not a problem. however there is also some background noise which unfortunately cannot be eliminated, mostly my workstation. however i don't have a problem recording vocals (probably because of proximity). i obviously can't get quite as close to the guitar with the 58 as my mouth, and the guitar is a quieter instrument (particularly since it is an ovation).

i'm sure a grace preamp would solve the problem but they are a little out of my league. =)

as an update, i've ordered both the 57 and the mxl603 with shock mount off amazon, got both new for $210 (including shipping).

thanks again for the replies - i'll let everyone know how the mics work out.