scottfa
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Midi Learn Improved?
I have had a lot of trouble with the Midi Learn for a lot of VSTis etc. Waves GTR is one. It could all be user error I suppose, but if not, is there an improvement in X1?
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yorolpal
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/05 21:57:42
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First they have to stop making us "configure as synth" any effect we want to control with midi learn. Let's hope they done something in this area.
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/05 22:23:14
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Have you tried using ACT?
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scottfa
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/05 22:40:44
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Nope......I bet you could elaborate  I have no idea how that would work. Is there a page number in the manual? I suspect from that reply that no work has been done in this area from 8.5, correct? Thanks
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yorolpal
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/05 22:59:30
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You shouldn't have to use ACT Seth, ol pal. All you need to do is pass midi to an effect in the same way you do a synth. It seems archaic now to have to configure and run an effect like FabFilter Timeless 2 say as a synth in order to get it to respond to it's very extensive midi learn capabilities. You should just be able to route midi to it transparently. Pardon me if I dream big dreams. But Sonar is lagging in this area IMHO.
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/05 23:37:17
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ACT is Active Controller Technology and is used to dynamically map any controller to control any plugin or synth. MIDI Learn was the predecessor to this, but it is not and never will be dynamic. In other words, if you learn Knob 1 on your controller to Frequency 1 on your EQ then that knob will always control that parameter, no matter which plugin is in focus. ACT takes this to the next level and dynamically maps your knobs/ sliders/ etc. to whichever plugin/ synth is in focus (i.e. clicked on). Within ACT there is a learn function (that's what the ACT button on every plugin and synth is for). With ACT Learn you can remap your controls to take over whatever parameters you want on a given plugin or synth, and that mapping is permanent so every time you open your favorite EQ the same knobs and sliders control the same parameters each and every time. So, you could say we updated MIDI Learn, but we did that way back in SONAR 6 when we introduced ACT.  Some controllers, like the A-Pros, VS-700, VS-100, etc., have their own dedicated ACT plugins. For a generic controller without a specific ACT plugin, like an Axiom or EMU controller ... 1. Create a new Control Surface in SONAR 2. Select the Generic ACT MIDI Controller 3. Choose the appropriate In and Out 4. In SONAR open the CS property page form the CS toolbar 5. Choose a preset which matches your controller, if there is one, and also put your controller's memory to the same bank listed in the ACT preset name 6. If you have a controller not listed as a preset then choose one which closely resembles what you have and learn each control to the ACT Property box by clicking in each ACT cell and moving your knob. slider to learn it to ACT, one by one. Then save as a preset HTH
post edited by Seth Perlstein [Cakewalk] - 2010/11/05 23:39:40
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ba_midi
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 00:07:23
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yorolpal
You shouldn't have to use ACT Seth, ol pal. All you need to do is pass midi to an effect in the same way you do a synth. It seems archaic now to have to configure and run an effect like FabFilter Timeless 2 say as a synth in order to get it to respond to it's very extensive midi learn capabilities. You should just be able to route midi to it transparently. Pardon me if I dream big dreams. But Sonar is lagging in this area IMHO.
With all due respect to Seth, he didn't really answer the question here. But in another thread, the basic answer is there's been no change (if I read that thread correctly). I'm hoping we hear differently, but I suspect this was not in the current X1 spec, unfortunately. And, ACT sounds simple but doesn't always work out quite so well. This is especially true for the part about not having a preset to match already. Then it's like the wild west. But I DO hope we're just seeing the "initial" out of the gate release of X1 with the other goodies to come in point releases. As I said in another thread, I'm very much lowering my expectations because I think the Bakers want to see how the very intensive GUI changes and other changes (such as menus, skylight, new tools) fly - and probably want to shake some new bugs out before going for the other stuff we've all be asking for. Just the GUI update alone must have been/is a HUGE undertaking, so I accept we can't get a TON of new / better features beyond the few we know about without potential major headaches. So I'm giving them some headroom on this. At least we DO have ways to handle MIDI Learn (although OP may not realize it) so it's not like we can't work in the meanwhile. I think this X1 starts a new day/new direction for Sonar (I hope) that will, as time goes on, be a major plus for all of us. Fingers crossed.
post edited by ba_midi - 2010/11/06 00:09:14
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Treefight
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 00:42:01
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yorolpal
First they have to stop making us "configure as synth" any effect we want to control with midi learn. Let's hope they done something in this area.
Hey yorolpal, would you mind elaborating on this a bit? I've dived into ACT and drowned; I've gone the Automap route and find it finicky as well. What you said made me think or Reason or other Daws where you just right click a control and the MIDI learn message pops up, you move the controller, and you're good to go. Maybe not "dynamic" like ACT and Automap, but maybe also relaible, easy to use, and in fact better because it isn't "dynamic" as ACT and Automap have problems recall "default" mappings and the like. I guess I'm wondering if/how one uses "midi mapping" in Sonar without ACT/Automap/whatever. Thanks in advance...
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TheOrginalGrumpster
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 00:59:24
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You can right click on some controls and select "Remote Control", then click "Learn", in the way you describe by moving your controller.
You can also use Assign Controls in the Synth Rack, for vsti and dxi. See help file.
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ba_midi
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 01:18:34
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MIDI LEARN works 'as is' with a synth because it's already got a MIDI signal flow.
The problem Yorolpal and I keep referring to is with FX bins.
You can't simply MIDI LEARN an FX unless it's first configured as a synth (and then inserted into the FX bin as a synth) unless the plugin already has a "fx" dll (many do these days).
SO that's the real problem and one that really should be addressed by Sonar asap.
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scottfa
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 08:43:36
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Thanks for the info Seth:
Well......I use ACT for my Mackie BCF2000 I can't believe that I can find a similar template for Waves GTR. I'll give it a look though.......I seem to remember that the Waves documentation stated something about GTR having a problem with Sonar. Trying to automate controller messages from the Track Inspector drives me crazy. Maybe it is me, but man, it sure does not seem to let go of controls or reassign them consistently.
On another note, does it seem like nothing has changed other than the GUI and Pro Channel? It has been two years(almost) since 8.0............I hope at least for bug fixes.,
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TheOrginalGrumpster
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 09:03:08
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ba midi, I agree, with both you and yorolpal, the midi control of fx could be improved.
I use Guitar Rig and Amplitube with a Berhinger FCB1010 and setting it up was a pita, though when configured it works sweetly and is now saved as a track template.
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 12:43:25
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scottfa
Thanks for the info Seth:
Well......I use ACT for my Mackie BCF2000 I can't believe that I can find a similar template for Waves GTR. I'll give it a look though.......I seem to remember that the Waves documentation stated something about GTR having a problem with Sonar. Trying to automate controller messages from the Track Inspector drives me crazy. Maybe it is me, but man, it sure does not seem to let go of controls or reassign them consistently.
On another note, does it seem like nothing has changed other than the GUI and Pro Channel? It has been two years(almost) since 8.0............I hope at least for bug fixes.,
What do you mean you use ACT for you BCF? If you are using it as an ACT controller you should not need "another template". That's the whole point of ACT...not having to switch templates and muck around. And let's back off Seth here. He has literally no obligation whatsoever to be here talking to people on Friday night or Saturday at all. He does it because he wants to. Show me another company with reps answering question on a Friday night - or in many cases at all. He asked if you'd used ACT. It's a valid question and frankly what you should be using to control plugins.
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yorolpal
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 12:56:55
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Treefight
yorolpal
First they have to stop making us "configure as synth" any effect we want to control with midi learn. Let's hope they done something in this area.
Hey yorolpal, would you mind elaborating on this a bit? I've dived into ACT and drowned; I've gone the Automap route and find it finicky as well. What you said made me think or Reason or other Daws where you just right click a control and the MIDI learn message pops up, you move the controller, and you're good to go. Maybe not "dynamic" like ACT and Automap, but maybe also relaible, easy to use, and in fact better because it isn't "dynamic" as ACT and Automap have problems recall "default" mappings and the like.
I guess I'm wondering if/how one uses "midi mapping" in Sonar without ACT/Automap/whatever.
Thanks in advance...
Go into the Plugin Manager and click on the VST effect you want to use then click plugin properties and then click on "configure as synth". Then save. Now insert that plugin in the FX bin of the track you want the effect to control. Now here's where it starts getting needlessly tedious. Create a new midi track and make it's output your "configured as synth" effect. It should show up in the list along with all your other instantiated "synths". Make the input of that midi track "all inputs...midi omni". Now any controller you have hooked up that Sonar recognizes should be able to send midi directly to that effect. Try it. For instance in the FabFilter stuff you right click any button or knob to pop up the "midi learn" dialog. Then move a knob, fader or button on your controller. Your onscreen knob, fader or button should respond. Viola. You're controlling. I tried ACT also...it's convoluted, sketchy and there's not near enough templates for it IMHO. But that just may be me. Anywhoo, It does puzzle me why ANY VST effect plug can't be set to an omni mode to recieve midi as a default and not have to be configured as a synth. HTH.
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ba_midi
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 13:27:18
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
scottfa
Thanks for the info Seth:
Well......I use ACT for my Mackie BCF2000 I can't believe that I can find a similar template for Waves GTR. I'll give it a look though.......I seem to remember that the Waves documentation stated something about GTR having a problem with Sonar. Trying to automate controller messages from the Track Inspector drives me crazy. Maybe it is me, but man, it sure does not seem to let go of controls or reassign them consistently.
On another note, does it seem like nothing has changed other than the GUI and Pro Channel? It has been two years(almost) since 8.0............I hope at least for bug fixes.,
What do you mean you use ACT for you BCF? If you are using it as an ACT controller you should not need "another template". That's the whole point of ACT...not having to switch templates and muck around.
And let's back off Seth here. He has literally no obligation whatsoever to be here talking to people on Friday night or Saturday at all. He does it because he wants to.
Show me another company with reps answering question on a Friday night - or in many cases at all.
He asked if you'd used ACT. It's a valid question and frankly what you should be using to control plugins.
Just for the record - no one (including me) is jumpin on Seth. I think you may have taken things a bit out of context. And it sounds to me like maybe you need a little rest as well, Brandon. I know you guys are putting in overtime and trying to field questions. And it's appreciated by me - and I'm sure (at leaswt hope) by everyone. I think we all know this is a busy and intense time for everyone as CW as you ready a new version with major changes. Rest is good :) And I thank you both for the extra effort you do put in to help us all stay aware of what's going on, and the overtime you put in to answer questions.
post edited by ba_midi - 2010/11/06 13:39:49
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 14:04:09
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Reading back again to the first response to Seth it still sounds snarky to me, but maybe I misinterpreted and if I did then I do apologize and I should always probably give the benefit of the doubt.
And you're right Billy, rest is good.
(Putting on the Sigur Ros and going to help my daughter with her learning to walk...)
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ba_midi
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 14:12:25
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
Reading back again to the first response to Seth it still sounds snarky to me, but maybe I misinterpreted and if I did then I do apologize and I should always probably give the benefit of the doubt.
And you're right Billy, rest is good.
(Putting on the Sigur Ros and going to help my daughter with her learning to walk...)
Brandon, If you think it was me sounding snarky to Seth, then I apologize here and now to him. SETH - My apologies! Seriously - and you know me enough to know I don't kiss arse -- I apologize because it was NOT meant to be snarky - and you guys ARE working hard I'm sure, and therefor I would not want him (or you) to feel snarked. No Bull. My response to the OP was simply meant to point out that his question wasn't "fully" answered and was in no way meant to disrespect Seth's response. I was adding to it. Again I say I know you are all working hard during this rollout period. And I think I should be more sensitive to that (as best I try anyway). /me extends a handshake to Seth's and sends Brandon off to take care of his daughter :)
post edited by ba_midi - 2010/11/06 14:15:01
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 14:16:08
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ba_midi
Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
Reading back again to the first response to Seth it still sounds snarky to me, but maybe I misinterpreted and if I did then I do apologize and I should always probably give the benefit of the doubt.
And you're right Billy, rest is good.
(Putting on the Sigur Ros and going to help my daughter with her learning to walk...)
Brandon,
If you think it was me sounding snarky to Seth, then I apologize here and now to him.
SETH - My apologies!
Seriously - and you know me enough to know I don't kiss arse -- I apologize because it was NOT meant to be snarky - and you guys ARE working hard I'm sure, and therefor I would not want him (or you) to feel snarked. No Bull.
My response to the OP was simply meant to point out that his question wasn't "fully" answered and was in no way meant to disrespect Seth's response. I was adding to it.
Again I say I know you are all working hard during this rollout period. And I think I should be more sensitive to that (as best I try anyway).
/me extends a handshake to Seth's and sends Brandon off to take care of his daughter :)
No Billy I wasn't directing anything at all to you. Sorry - I should have been more clear.
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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ba_midi
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 14:22:25
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
ba_midi
Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
Reading back again to the first response to Seth it still sounds snarky to me, but maybe I misinterpreted and if I did then I do apologize and I should always probably give the benefit of the doubt.
And you're right Billy, rest is good.
(Putting on the Sigur Ros and going to help my daughter with her learning to walk...)
Brandon,
If you think it was me sounding snarky to Seth, then I apologize here and now to him.
SETH - My apologies!
Seriously - and you know me enough to know I don't kiss arse -- I apologize because it was NOT meant to be snarky - and you guys ARE working hard I'm sure, and therefor I would not want him (or you) to feel snarked. No Bull.
My response to the OP was simply meant to point out that his question wasn't "fully" answered and was in no way meant to disrespect Seth's response. I was adding to it.
Again I say I know you are all working hard during this rollout period. And I think I should be more sensitive to that (as best I try anyway).
/me extends a handshake to Seth's and sends Brandon off to take care of his daughter :)
No Billy I wasn't directing anything at all to you. Sorry - I should have been more clear.
I appreciate that, but I'd rather be earnest and extend the apology even if it wasn't directed at me. You guys are doing a great job and your involvement during this process helps everyone. So I want to be sure you know where I stand on that. Thanks anyway, Brandon. Now go get out of here and be with your daughter LOL!
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Thatsastrat
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 15:02:41
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I would love to be able to use my BCF2000 using act to control things. It bugs me I can not control synths in Mackie mode, but under act I loose automated faders, as I understand it. So that is one main reason I keep it in Mackie mode. I would love it if it all worked under Act and I could select the knob and fader control for plugs and synths.
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ba_midi
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 15:06:56
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Thatsastrat
I would love to be able to use my BCF2000 using act to control things. It bugs me I can not control synths in Mackie mode, but under act I loose automated faders, as I understand it. So that is one main reason I keep it in Mackie mode. I would love it if it all worked under Act and I could select the knob and fader control for plugs and synths.
I use my BCF2000 all the time - and while I'd probably like it to be "all things at all times" too, it just doesn't work that way. But there are so many inexpensive controllers around today (and even some good MIDI keyboards have tons of knobs/rotaries, etc) that it's easy to simply just add a 2nd controller. I actually prefer having a few controllers (I like having options) and it keeps things more organized. I do think many of us think ACT needs a little more "umph" though. When so many users here seem to express having difficulty with something like ACT, I think it's a sign that it needs work.
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scottfa
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 15:24:13
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yorolpal
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 15:27:19
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I've actually got four controllers currently hooked up. Alesis QS8, Alesis Control Pad, Korg padKontrol and a Korg nano. And I use all of them for different things. Keepin it all "under control".
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scottfa
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 15:35:23
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Gheesh....... I sure didn't mean to sound "snarky". I have just never used ACT for anything other than my BCF in Mackie mode. I didn't figure that I could use it to map continuous controllers etc for VSTis.
You know, maybe it is me....but I sure see a lot of people jumping on others in this forum. I stopped asking or replying for a while because of this behavior.
I don't see anything remotely attacking Seth(who actually is one of the more level headed around these parts) in my response.
As a user of Cakewalk since the DOS days, I have never seen the forum like this. I applaud Cakewalk for contributing and it really can be helpful, but I am rapidly coming to believe that if you are a newbee, or someone with a problem, you just have to go elsewhere for answers. I'll find another place to get help.
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ba_midi
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 15:44:04
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scottfa
Gheesh....... I sure didn't mean to sound "snarky". I have just never used ACT for anything other than my BCF in Mackie mode. I didn't figure that I could use it to map continuous controllers etc for VSTis.
You know, maybe it is me....but I sure see a lot of people jumping on others in this forum. I stopped asking or replying for a while because of this behavior.
I don't see anything remotely attacking Seth(who actually is one of the more level headed around these parts) in my response.
As a user of Cakewalk since the DOS days, I have never seen the forum like this. I applaud Cakewalk for contributing and it really can be helpful, but I am rapidly coming to believe that if you are a newbee, or someone with a problem, you just have to go elsewhere for answers. I'll find another place to get help.
Hmm, interesting. If you follow this thread carefully - other than the side trip - there are a number of replies answering the question from a few points of view. Does that not count? And, I would add that this forum, more than most, is extremely helpful to SO many. And, the funny thing is - so many come here to ask questions more about 3rd party plugins than to the forums belonging to those 3rd parties. That says something good too, no? It's the Internot, er Internet. There will be many opinions, many weirdos, many good people, or as the old saying goes: "the good, the bad, and the ugly" (from a movie).
post edited by ba_midi - 2010/11/06 15:46:08
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scottfa
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 15:45:14
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Thanks to all who have suggested another controller.
First, my problem as stated, was with CC's in the Track Inspector and with the Midi Learn function not working properly. Don't see how another control surface would help UNLESS I use ACT(as suggested by Seth). Right now I have an ilock, two Line 6 interfaces, a wind controller, a BCF, and an empty USB slot for a Wireless interface. I really do not have any room physically to connect another controller.
That's OK, I would just like Midi learn to work consistently with an MIDI expression pedal connected through my Line6 Pod X2Live.
Again, thanks for the suggestions.
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 15:47:03
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scottfa
Gheesh....... I sure didn't mean to sound "snarky". I have just never used ACT for anything other than my BCF in Mackie mode. I didn't figure that I could use it to map continuous controllers etc for VSTis.
You know, maybe it is me....but I sure see a lot of people jumping on others in this forum. I stopped asking or replying for a while because of this behavior.
I don't see anything remotely attacking Seth(who actually is one of the more level headed around these parts) in my response.
As a user of Cakewalk since the DOS days, I have never seen the forum like this. I applaud Cakewalk for contributing and it really can be helpful, but I am rapidly coming to believe that if you are a newbee, or someone with a problem, you just have to go elsewhere for answers. I'll find another place to get help.
Scott, I said if I misinterpreted that I was sorry. Can you not see how it could have been misconstrued that perhaps you were complaining that Seth didn't give more of an answer right off the bat or that his lack of answer was intended to suggest nothing has changed etc. Perhaps you can see how it seemed to someone just reading it and not understanding the intent. This is the problem sometimes with just relying on the written word. It's likely I misinterpreted your comments and it was not in fact intended that way. In fact I'm convinced this is the fact. So I apologize for my assumption and I'm sorry it makes you feel that this is not a good place to get help. I should have given you the benefit of the doubt.
post edited by Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk] - 2010/11/06 15:50:44
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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scottfa
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 16:02:32
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Hi Brandon:
Thank you for that. I have the interpretation problem with the Internet all the time. As a math teacher in a high school, I get email from parents that sound outrageous until I talk to them and then the email makes sense. I am also aware of how easy it is too work too hard and too long and type too fast. I know some of this is how I present things , so I take some blame too.
I know that you and others at Cake put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into a release. It must keep you shaking in you boots when you hear negative comments.
Upon rereading that I stated thatthe new version is a GUI and I hope for bug fixes.... it sounds like I expected more, but really, a GUI is important. And this GUI looks like a real improvement. I for one, do not need more synths, plug ins etc.
So keep up the good work, and thanks for responding!
If you want a real story of how I had to grovel BIG TIME PM me :)
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 16:32:10
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Thanks for your gracious reply Scott and for your empathy. Now...let's see if we can get that BCF workin' with Waves GTR. 
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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jungfriend
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Re:Midi Learn Improved?
2010/11/06 18:29:48
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I use Automap and Kore 2. Maybe a solution for you? Gotta be better than jumping through those kind of hoops at this point.
Just a thought anyway, Ol' Pal.
Paul
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