The "realistic" Windows 7 discussion thread

Hey ladies! All the world just turned into Beta testers over night, even those people who didn't master Vista for months and years. So let's have a bit more realistic look on Windows 7 and its improvements for "professional Audio" work.

My own oppinion based on vast Windows experience is that for professional Audio work Windows 7 will not magically improve performance on otherwise bad systems, it may get some slightly more edge out of already good systems by its improved Scheduler.

The main reason for that is that most performance problems are either based on bad hardware drivers (which we RME users are usually spared from) or bad software/DAW implementations. Especially the latter is something that 7 can hardly make better unless it forces developers to write better code by more strict implementation rules. And guess what, that's exactly what Vista did already and hence many developers struggle to properly support it.

Consider this: On my Macbook Pro Ableton Live performs 20-30% worse on OS X compared to Windows eventhough an uncountable number of people claims OS X to be the better OS for Audio/DAW work. So even with the supposely "better Audio OS" the software runs worse. Speculate yourself which one is to be blamed for that and wether Snow Leopard will change anything about Live's performance just by updating the OS!?

Besides: While Microsoft claims that drivers running on Vista should also run on 7 my very first experience with RME Fireface drivers is that Installation fails. That's likely just a problem with the Installer, but it shows that it's not gonna be as hassle-free as Microsoft suggests. That's not a problem for me, but maybe people should stay a bit lower on the hype.

NI Kore drivers on the other hand install without problems, but cannot be configured from inside Ableton Live (you have to run the Configuration App manually). So there will be a timespan where people changing to Windows 7 will experience issues, just like with any other major OS release (albeit one could argue how "major" 7 is away from just a Service Pack release of Vista).

Yes, ASIO is supported. My NI Kore runs ASIO on 7 with Ableton Live, I did not try Sonar yet though. Just like I said, there's nothing "magically" happening, it's still hard work.

I still use XP.

I'm not sure what your point is (to the OP, not Tom).
Was something not realistic about the other reports of the Windows 7 beta?
Did someone say Windows 7 would cure all our ills, or something?
Are first-hand reports not valid?

- zevo

(ps - lots of us have vast computer and DAW experience... I've never understood why people must tell everybody about it, like just that means predicting the future comes from it... some of the worst predictors I've known had too much past experience, and were too set in their ways to separate from it, even in the face of evidence to the contrary)

ORIGINAL: CJaysMusic
Im out of here. This isn't realistic enough for me. I'M going to the other 10 threads on this subject...
Cj

Hehehe.

Besides: While Microsoft claims that drivers running on Vista should also run on 7 my very first experience with RME Fireface drivers is that Installation fails. That's likely just a problem with the Installer, but it shows that it's not gonna be as hassle-free as Microsoft suggests. That's not a problem for me, but maybe people should stay a bit lower on the hype.

I don't recall seeing a single post inferring that Win-7 "magically" configures itself... or will run well on a sub-par DAW

The bottom line is that Win-7 (fundamentally) is far superior to where Vista was when it was released.
ie: Significantly lower DPC latency will translate to good low-latency performance straight out of the gate. (Not having to wait 12+ months for SP1 to make it a viable DAW platform)

Speaking for myself, I know I wasn't shy about mentioning Vista's (initial) poor performance as a DAW platform.
It only seems right to be just as vocal with positive findings.

ORIGINAL: CJaysMusic

Im out of here. This isn't realistic enough for me. I'M going to the other 10 threads on this subject...
Cj

Damn CJ, I just got here. You're "really" gonna leave?

With regard to the failure of the RME drivers, try right clicking on the install icon, choose the first option in the list (--- the program installed or ran on a previous operating system), select vista, then try running it that way, I had to do that to get my edirol audio interface working.

ORIGINAL: CJaysMusic

That's not a problem for me, but maybe people should stay a bit lower on the hype

Censorship is always the best answer..I think someone like to see negative responses more than positive ones, even when warranted. it is what it is, if people want to praise something, let them. not everythnig is doom and gloom

Excuse me? Were did I ask for censorship? I asked for a bit of rationality and maybe less enthusiasm about something as profane as a not even major update from the already well performing Vista.

Furthermore there is no need for "negative" responses, and especially not for doom and gloom. That's exactly what I'm talking about. There is no "PITA Vista := Glorious 7". The likely most impelling reason for Microsoft to quickly publish a "new" Windows is for them to get rid of the "Vista" name that is so negatively associated (for no reason anymore since SP1 aka Server 2008).

The best part about Windows 7 is that Mark Russinovich (aka Sysinternals) is much more involved into its development than he was into the first publication of Vista. He obviously knows what he's talking about and the fact that Microsoft was so wise to get him into the boat speaks for them. I am very sure that his work on the process scheduler will bring us audio professionals some benefit, but only if that's not negated by bad software implementation from the DAW developers side!

ORIGINAL: Timur

Hey ladies! All the world just turned into Beta testers over night, even those people who didn't master Vista for months and years. So let's have a bit more realistic look on Windows 7 and its improvements for "professional Audio" work.

My own oppinion based on vast Windows experience is that for professional Audio work Windows 7 will not magically improve performance on otherwise bad systems, it may get some slightly more edge out of already good systems by its improved Scheduler.

The main reason for that is that most performance problems are either based on bad hardware drivers (which we RME users are usually spared from) or bad software/DAW implementations. Especially the latter is something that 7 can hardly make better unless it forces developers to write better code by more strict implementation rules. And guess what, that's exactly what Vista did already and hence many developers struggle to properly support it.

....

Well, it may have been said above, but I'll say it myself. Who said anything about "magical" performance improvements?

As far as I can tell, the interest in Windows 7 is that some people are reporting that Win 7/ SONAR performs better than XP on the same equipment, as opposed to worse (which is what many have found on Vista). This has nothing to do with bad drivers,or bad DAW implementations because the same drivers and DAWs are being used in Vista and in Win 7 (except for us Fireface users and probably a few others).

I find this legitimately interesting and I would like to check it out myself.

hi timur... i just have to say that normally i am also a big sceptic - thats why i never bothered installing vista since i read a lot of not so fine things about it -- i just installed w7 out of pure curiosuity and boredom one afternoon and i didnt expect anything special - maybe thats why i was so amazed to see how well everything worked...it relly almost felt like i had upgraded my daw...you are right that i could also have tried vista and eventually i could have reported positive things about it - still i think that its not a "duty" of mine to test everything...so my positive review only covers what i tested (w7)
and as already stated it just performs great (i had not a single driver problem - i only had to install the rme card - and all worked perfectly... maybe others experience troubles with it - i cant tell - for me getting this free w7 was very cool

greetz

ORIGINAL: vanceen

Well, it may have been said above, but I'll say it myself. Who said anything about "magical" performance improvements?

It was both a metaphorical expression for the general "hooray" on 7 happening after all the "booing" on Vista and even more important it expresses that current Audio computers and software can already utilize their full potential without Windows 7.

Some people behave as if 7 would give people access to computer performance never known to mankind and that all our precious hardware only had to wait to finally be freed from the oppression of XP and Vista.

You cannot get vastly more performance out of a computer that already utilizes most (if not all) of its potential!

When I am running my DAWs at 100% CPU load then nearly all of that load comes from the Audio driver and the DAW itself. Especially with MMCSS on Vista there is little system overhead getting into its way. Where do you want to squeeze more performance out of that?

One thing I hope for (and still have to do more tests with) is more overhead for low latency performance though. At the moment I can run Ableton Live upto around 65% CPU load at 64 samples via the Fireface 400 on both XP and Vista, less so in OS X. DPCs and Interrupts are very low at this point, CPU load has obviously enough headroom, but still drop-outs begin to happen. Is it the OS though? I wouldn't bet on it, rather on the Firewire driver implementation or the DAW implementation. Tests will tell.

But maybe 7 forces improperly written drivers and applications to behave better, that would be a big improvement. Albeit those drivers and applications should have been optimized by their respective developers anyway, but an OS managing that part is surely a big welcome Plus (hopefully done without additional overhead)!

As far as I can tell, the interest in Windows 7 is that some people are reporting that Win 7/ SONAR performs better than XP on the same equipment, as opposed to worse (which is what many have found on Vista). This has nothing to do with bad drivers,or bad DAW implementations because the same drivers and DAWs are being used in Vista and in Win 7 (except for us Fireface users and probably a few others).

And I still suspect that at the current state of 7 about the same Audio performance can be achieved with Vista using the same proper drivers, at least on a somewhat modern system.

I find this legitimately interesting and I would like to check it out myself.

Absolutely! But some educated comparisons and meaningful numbers are far more useful than THIS IS F$CK§NG GRAND NEVER SEEN BEFORE PERFORMANCE! I LOVE IT, IT'S MARVELOUS AND FINALLY MS HAD DONE THE RIGHT THING! zzzzzZZZZ c'mon, gimme a break.

ORIGINAL: Timur

ORIGINAL: vanceen

Well, it may have been said above, but I'll say it myself. Who said anything about "magical" performance improvements?

It was both a metaphorical expression for the general "hooray" on 7 happening after all the "booing" on Vista and even more important it expresses that current Audio computers and software can already utilize their full potential without Windows 7.

Some people behave as if 7 would give people access to computer performance never known to mankind and that all our precious hardware only had to wait to finally be freed from the oppression of XP and Vista.

You cannot get vastly more performance out of a computer that already utilizes most (if not all) of its potential!

When I am running my DAWs at 100% CPU load then nearly all of that load comes from the Audio driver and the DAW itself. Especially with MMCSS on Vista there is little system overhead getting into its way. Where do you want to squeeze more performance out of that?

One thing I hope for (and still have to do more tests with) is more overhead for low latency performance though. At the moment I can run Ableton Live upto around 65% CPU load at 64 samples via the Fireface 400 on both XP and Vista, less so in OS X. DPCs and Interrupts are very low at this point, CPU load has obviously enough headroom, but still drop-outs begin to happen. Is it the OS though? I wouldn't bet on it, rather on the Firewire driver implementation or the DAW implementation. Tests will tell.

But maybe 7 forces improperly written drivers and applications to behave better, that would be a big improvement. Albeit those drivers and applications should have been optimized by their respective developers anyway, but an OS managing that part is surely a big welcome Plus (hopefully done without additional overhead)!

As far as I can tell, the interest in Windows 7 is that some people are reporting that Win 7/ SONAR performs better than XP on the same equipment, as opposed to worse (which is what many have found on Vista). This has nothing to do with bad drivers,or bad DAW implementations because the same drivers and DAWs are being used in Vista and in Win 7 (except for us Fireface users and probably a few others).

And I still suspect that at the current state of 7 about the same Audio performance can be achieved with Vista using the same proper drivers, at least on a somewhat modern system.

I find this legitimately interesting and I would like to check it out myself.

Absolutely! But some educated comparisons and meaningful numbers are far more useful than THIS IS F$CK§NG GRAND NEVER SEEN BEFORE PERFORMANCE! I LOVE IT, IT'S MARVELOUS AND FINALLY MS HAD DONE THE RIGHT THING! zzzzzZZZZ c'mon, gimme a break.

just in my case i am using exactly the same driver as for xp - still w7 ROCKS - is COOL - AMAZING - KICKS ASS - IS BETTER THAN YOU

ORIGINAL: info@tomflair.com

just in my case i am using exactly the same driver as for xp - still w7 ROCKS - is COOL - AMAZING - KICKS ASS - IS BETTER THAN YOU

i like vista