Master Chief [Cakewalk]
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RE: Quantize MFX Broken - Cakewalk Please Fix !!!
2004/07/07 14:32:24
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This post should stay on top until someone from Cakewalk responds. As others have already noted, this is a known issue in SONAR 3.1.1. Specifically it effects only soft synths, hardware MIDI is immune. The general statement of the problem is if an MFX processor is present which produces MIDI event times that are in the future, then these events will get lost. If the MFX doesn't move events into the future, or if the MFX is feeding hardware MIDI, then the problem won't manifest itself. This will be fixed in SONAR 4. In the meantime we suggest we use Marc's MfxScript workaround.
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jeffn1
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RE: Quantize MFX Broken - Cakewalk Please Fix !!!
2004/07/07 16:03:02
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quote:
This post should stay on top until someone from Cakewalk responds.As others have already noted, this is a known issue in SONAR 3.1.1. Specifically it effects only soft synths, hardware MIDI is immune. The general statement of the problem is if an MFX processor is present which produces MIDI event times that are in the future, then these events will get lost.
If the MFX doesn't move events into the future, or if the MFX is feeding hardware MIDI, then the problem won't manifest itself.
This will be fixed in SONAR 4. In the meantime we suggest we use Marc's MfxScript workaround. Wrong answer. JeffN
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mbncp
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RE: Quantize MFX Broken - Cakewalk Please Fix !!!
2004/07/07 17:15:49
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Hi Russell, Glad it works for you. If you are doing some simple quantizing you may check this script. It's very basic quantizing with an option for random offset (after quantizing). Note that it would be very easy to add some extra parameters, so let me know if you need something special, even something that's not on the default quantize plug. Currently I should be working on the GUI part of MfxScript, so the plugs would have controls to enter the parameters, but instead of working on this, I'm just playing around with an 'arpeggiator-live midi groove sampler' that I created using mfxscript. In the meantime, you can just save the script with different settings under different names in a given folder, so they will show in the preset page of mfxscript, and you are then just a double-click away. Note that a right-click on a 'folder' in the preset tree control will open this folder using window explorer. Now the link: http://mypage.bluewin.ch/ncplus/download/Quantizing.txt PS: Off course, if you use this script don't use the previous one and don't use the default Quantize plug. this is an ALL-IN-ONE 
< Message edited by mbncp -- 7/8/2004 12:47:58 AM >
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mbncp
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RE: Quantize MFX Broken - Cakewalk Please Fix !!!
2004/07/07 18:11:21
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Wrong answer. Well they are two issues. 1) Mfx plugs that create Live events (real-time input) with future timestamps (arpeggiators, echo plug..). When used with a VSTi, the events get fired at the same time (like setting the echo delay to 0 msec) And it's ok with midiout or dxi synth Only workaround here is to use a virtual midi driver. 2) Mfx plugs that move Track events timestamps in the 'past' or in the 'future' (Quantize plugs). If these events are outside of the current processing buffers they will be lost. MfxScript can buffer future events, but not early ones, so the trick is to move the events back (using the time field of the track settings), and push them back at the correct position n the script. To avoid the the 'Time' trick when using the quantize script we could keep the events within the start of the buffer. That means that some of the events (some of the ones you don't hear) would be less quantized or not at all, but a least you would hear them. If someone can understand what I try to say and is interested in such a plug(script), just let me know. And be sure that when S4 is coming out and these two bugs are not fixed, it is not ‘yodel’ that you will hear in the Swiss alps 
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RTGraham
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RE: Quantize MFX Broken (in response to Ron Kuper)
2004/07/11 02:28:47
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I would love to see this thread stay on top until we get a satisfactory resolution. Ron Kuper appears to be promising that the problem will be fixed in version 4, but that means I have to spend money to fix something somebody else broke. I cannot begin to emphasize how frustrating that is!. Fortunately Marc's MfxScript fix works for me, but I just discovered how much more time and effort it is to insert an extra plugin onto all the tracks I want to soft-quantize and set their times back by 960 clicks. Don't get me wrong, Marc - I'm very grateful to be able to handle the problem at all. But Cakewalk still isn't handling their business properly in this case. The thread about SONAR's audio engine versus Nuendo's gets 9 pages worth of hits and posts, as well as direct involvement from Cakewalk's vice president of engineering. In the meantime, this thread, which deals with an issue that actually directly affects my productivity, constantly gets knocked down the list, and the only response I ever received to my technical support email was "we have forwarded your message to our customer service department."
So Ron, I'm afraid I'm not satisfied with the suggestion to use MfxScript until version 4 comes out. I'm not someone who has to have the absolute latest version of something everytime an upgrade is available. I spend my money when I see that the purchase price of the upgrade is warranted for my needs, and that the improvement in productivity will justify the expense. In this case, the investment in version 3 REMOVED features that I use, and now you're telling me to wait until I can spend more money to fix it, and in the meantime use a solution that had to come from a third party, and which, although I am grateful for its existence, takes extra time - time that I would not have to spend on the issue if the product worked properly in the first place! 
I think it's time for me to call Tech Support again this coming week, and send another direct tech support email. This is getting frustrating in light of the issues that get significant attention.
~~~~~~~~~~ Russell T. Graham Keys, Vocals, Songwriting, Production russell DOT graham AT rtgproductions DOT com www DOT myspace DOT com SLASH russelltgraham
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WireRage
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RE: Quantize MFX Broken (in response to Ron Kuper)
2004/07/11 03:09:14
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I'm going to have to agree here and hope Cakewalk changes their decision. I don't think CW should delay Sonar 4 however they should provide a patch for the known issues with Sonar 3.1.1 after the release of Sonar 4.
I would purchase a upgrade because it might offer a new products, conveniences, or services for my trade that I can afford. On the same hand I rather switch software companies if I was forced to purchase a new upgrade just to fix a bug from a previous software version. The only reason not to offer a patch for 3.1.1 after the release of Sonar 4 is because you want want more money from us or you don't care what happens.
I hope enough people become aware of this situation and perhaps maybe CW will comply to offering a update patch for 3.1.1 users after the release of Sonar 4.
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jlgrimes
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RE: Quantize MFX Broken - Cakewalk Please Fix !!!
2004/07/11 09:19:41
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As others have already noted, this is a known issue in SONAR 3.1.1. Specifically it effects only soft synths, hardware MIDI is immune. I did have a problem with my yamaha motif rack never able to start on time with the Quantize mfx. I was using usb instead of midi though.
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ebinary
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RE: Quantize MFX Broken (in response to Ron Kuper)
2004/07/11 10:11:04
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I agree. Between 2.2 and 3, I had a dozen projects including my primary template that simply didn't play half the notes unless the MIDI prepare buffer was at maximum. It essentially made me give up on a lot of 3rd party tools I had purchased for 2.2, through no fault of those tool makers. Sequencers have handled MIDI properly for 20 years, and its pretty poor when a top-of-the-line package can't handle quantization properly. C'mon, we're talking quantization for gods sake - its the feature launched 1000 80s synth pop bands. Where would synth music be if HoJo, T. Dolby or Tears For Fears had dropouts at random intervals? Eric
< Message edited by ebinary -- 7/11/2004 8:31:26 AM >
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JamminFool
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RE: Quantize MFX Broken (in response to Ron Kuper)
2004/07/11 11:17:06
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ORIGINAL: RTGraham
I would love to see this thread stay on top until we get a satisfactory resolution. Ron Kuper appears to be promising that the problem will be fixed in version 4, but that means I have to spend money to fix something somebody else broke. I cannot begin to emphasize how frustrating that is!. Fortunately Marc's MfxScript fix works for me, but I just discovered how much more time and effort it is to insert an extra plugin onto all the tracks I want to soft-quantize and set their times back by 960 clicks. Don't get me wrong, Marc - I'm very grateful to be able to handle the problem at all. But Cakewalk still isn't handling their business properly in this case. The thread about SONAR's audio engine versus Nuendo's gets 9 pages worth of hits and posts, as well as direct involvement from Cakewalk's vice president of engineering. In the meantime, this thread, which deals with an issue that actually directly affects my productivity, constantly gets knocked down the list, and the only response I ever received to my technical support email was "we have forwarded your message to our customer service department."
So Ron, I'm afraid I'm not satisfied with the suggestion to use MfxScript until version 4 comes out. I'm not someone who has to have the absolute latest version of something everytime an upgrade is available. I spend my money when I see that the purchase price of the upgrade is warranted for my needs, and that the improvement in productivity will justify the expense. In this case, the investment in version 3 REMOVED features that I use, and now you're telling me to wait until I can spend more money to fix it, and in the meantime use a solution that had to come from a third party, and which, although I am grateful for its existence, takes extra time - time that I would not have to spend on the issue if the product worked properly in the first place!
I think it's time for me to call Tech Support again this coming week, and send another direct tech support email. This is getting frustrating in light of the issues that get significant attention.
I agree. Serious regressions in the code should be fixed in a maintenance release. NOT PASSED ON TO THE NEXT PAID UPGRADE! The Envelope Bug, this bug, another bug involving broken multiple control surfaces, etc....there are features broken in the current release which users have built habits around using, and then have to interrupt work flow with work-arounds... Look, it happens. We all understand that. But it's what happens next that I am concerned with: Paying for fixes to serious regressions is unacceptable! Such a policy is bad, and regardless of whether the competition is doing business that way, it will only lead to an undermining of the confidence which is at the heart of the relationship with the customer. Come on, Cakewalk! Some regressions are unavoidable. But others are just egg on the face, and how you handle these define the company. Please continue a long history of impressing me by revisiting the release schedule.
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WireRage
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RE: Quantize MFX Broken (in response to Ron Kuper)
2004/07/11 15:11:20
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RTGraham
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RE: Quantize MFX Broken (in response to Ron Kuper)
2004/07/12 02:05:23
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ORIGINAL: JamminFool
I agree. Serious regressions in the code should be fixed in a maintenance release. NOT PASSED ON TO THE NEXT PAID UPGRADE!
... ...
Paying for fixes to serious regressions is unacceptable! Such a policy is bad, and regardless of whether the competition is doing business that way, it will only lead to an undermining of the confidence which is at the heart of the relationship with the customer.
... ...
Please continue a long history of impressing me by revisiting the release schedule.
Well said. As much as I would be disappointed to be forced to pay to fix features that Cakewalk broke, I think I would also be surprised. There are a couple of other MIDI and audio hardware and software companies that I am definitely unimpressed with (no need to name names), and from whom I would just expect, and probably accept, a lack of support. I use some of their products anyhow because I already own them and I've learned to work out the glitches for myself, but my intention of purchasing future products from those companies has dropped to near zero. Until now, my experience with Cakewalk and SONAR has been just the opposite. While I understand that version 4 must be a priority and that there are industry goals and timelines and deadlines, I hope that these pressures won't make Cakewalk lose their character as good supporters of their customers. I'm really waiting for Cakewalk to show us that they are continuing their tradition of quality and support.
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Master Chief [Cakewalk]
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RE: Quantize MFX Broken (in response to Ron Kuper)
2004/07/12 09:22:30
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The fix for the envelope bug is coming very soon, probably this week. It'll be a patch to the VST Adapter, which is actually at fault for this bug.
Right now all of our resources are focused on SONAR 4. In fact any of the 3.1.1 bugs that are getting fixed internally are being fixed within the SONAR 4 development effort. This means that all the testing of these bug fixes is happening in the scope of SONAR 4, too. (This is true even of the VST Adapter patch, but thankfully the adapter is a separate DLL component so have an opportunity to get an update out now.)
That said, we recognize that some of you won't be interested in whatever features are coming in SONAR 4, and will just want to keep working with 3.1.1 with some bugs fixed. So after SONAR 4 is shipped, and only after these bug fixes have been tested and verified as fixed in SONAR 4, can we consider issuing another patch to 3.x.
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RTGraham
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RE: Quantize MFX Broken (in response to Ron Kuper)
2004/07/12 09:59:04
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Thanks, Ron - the info is greatly appreciated, as is your direct involvement in issues on this forum. (I feel so special now. ) Seriously, I think I can safely say that it gives many of us peace of mind to know that support will continue at least one version back, and we won't be forced to shell out additional capital for bug fixes. Thanks again.
~~~~~~~~~~ Russell T. Graham Keys, Vocals, Songwriting, Production russell DOT graham AT rtgproductions DOT com www DOT myspace DOT com SLASH russelltgraham
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Bill OConnell
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RE: Quantize MFX Broken (in response to Ron Kuper)
2004/07/12 10:13:58
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ORIGINAL: As much as I would be disappointed to be forced to pay to fix features that Cakewalk broke, I think I would also be surprised. There are a couple of other MIDI and audio hardware and software companies that I am definitely unimpressed with (no need to name names), and from whom I would just expect, and probably accept, a lack of support. I use some of their products anyhow because I already own them and I've learned to work out the glitches for myself, but my intention of purchasing future products from those companies has dropped to near zero. Until now, my experience with Cakewalk and SONAR has been just the opposite. While I understand that version 4 must be a priority and that there are industry goals and timelines and deadlines, I hope that these pressures won't make Cakewalk lose their character as good supporters of their customers. I'm really waiting for Cakewalk to show us that they are continuing their tradition of quality and support.
So far such companies have appeared to have gotten away with it. If Cakewalk follows suit and adopts such an "expedient" business model, they will have lost a large part of what made them so unique. That being said, the Cakewalk management has been quite visible and responsive in comparison to most other companies. Sometimes you have to make at least a partial deal with the devil just to stay in business. I just hope Cakewalk can continue to walk that fine line that separates them from the competition. For example, if they decided to add C/R, a dongle, or some other intrusive type of copy protection, the last Sonar song may well be "Goodnight, Irene."
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planist
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RE: Quantize MFX Broken (in response to Ron Kuper)
2004/07/12 10:15:23
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(This is true even of the VST Adapter patch, but thankfully the adapter is a separate DLL component so have an opportunity to get an update out now.) yes, please keep the adapter seperate from sonar - i had so mnany problems with the combined things in cubase sx (sometimes the main program wouldnt start because of one plugin!!) jeff
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JamminFool
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RE: Quantize MFX Broken (in response to Ron Kuper)
2004/07/12 22:06:04
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thank you, ron!
that is perfectly acceptable (and much appreciated).
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raja
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RE: Quantize MFX Broken (in response to Ron Kuper)
2004/07/13 10:04:17
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Hey Ron,
So . . . if we're using Dxi plug-ins, or you are using DirectiXer, there are no envelope automation problems?
Roger Windsor
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cmusicmaker
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RE: Quantize MFX Broken (in response to Ron Kuper)
2004/07/17 19:02:01
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ORIGINAL: raja
Hey Ron,
So . . . if we're using Dxi plug-ins, or you are using DirectiXer, there are no envelope automation problems?
Roger Windsor
That is an interesting point...Console is another DXi > VST wrapper (an loads more) but I don't think it solves the problem either.
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planist
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RE: Quantize MFX Broken (in response to Ron Kuper)
2004/07/18 08:11:41
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The fix for the envelope bug is coming very soon, probably this week. It'll be a patch to the VST Adapter, which is actually at fault for this bug. when?
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