A Few Automation Ideas I Have For Sonar

Sup everyone!

The following are a few automation ideas that could improve Sonar's workflow:


1- The ability to automate a plugins' ON/OFF button.

This is most useful when using VSTi effects since there are no audio tracks (unless you bounce it) to insert clip effects into. But even when you have audio clips in your project, they might be chopped off into several pieces and inserting clip FX on each clip is not very convenient either. Sure you could bounce the clip, but I try to avoid doing that as much as possible. Using sends and automating its volume works in some cases but not in others (i.e. if you want that telephone effect on a certain part of the song). Plus this would enable us to use track effects in a different way (i.e. you can have two EQ plugins with contrasting curves on the same track and switch between them almost at will without having to automate a bunch of parameters, just their ON/OFF state). I'm sure there are other great uses for this.

2- Making automation easier with auto-animation.

The idea is to tell Sonar what the starting/ending points are and it will automatically draw the correct automation based on the settings you choose. For example, I want to automate track 1's panning to go 50% left and right at half-note intervals. All I do is go to an automation dialog, set the I/O points, select the choices I want (i.e. type of curve, amount of panning, interval, etc) and click OK (automation is automatically, and perfectly drawn). It could also start with an area on the time ruler selected, or a clip selected so that the I/O points are already set before going into the automation dialog. It could also include the ability to automate several parameters of a certain plugin (i.e. Sonitus EQ's frequency, gain, and Q settings) at once. The current implementation of automation drawing it's not precise so you spend more time fixing it later which is no good.

3- More automation modes.

Sonar only has one automation mode. I'd like to see other automation modes like those found on other DAWs (i.e. Touch, Latch, Overwrite, Jump).

4- Better Hide/Show Automation Option.

Wouldn't it be great to be able to hide/show multiple automations without having to enter/exit the same window over and over again? Cakewalk could implement an Automation Manager similar to the Track Manager. This would be a time/click saver :-)

5- Adding Anchors to the Envelope Nodes.

Think Premier Pro CS4 where you can shape the curves of your envelopes with the anchors that are attached to the envelope nodes. This way you can cutomize automation envelopes any way you want. You could even start with one of the 3 choices we already have in Sonar (Linear, Fast or Slow) and go from there.


Well, that's all I have for now. Let me know what you think or if I'm missing something that can already be done in Sonar.


Take care!

What I want is automation free of any bugs. In particular envelopes are extremely important and need to run perfectly.
I would like to have assignable ranges (I sometimes need to apply more positive clip or track gain than the limited available range allows).
Sonar is not visualizing plugin automation values correctly in many cases (% instead of actual value), I'd like this bug fixed too.
I don't need what you propose (just a personal position). In addition, I think the implementation would be too complex for a relatively minor or narrow usefulness.

> Which version of Sonar are you using?
8.3.1

> could you explain when Sonar displays % values as opposed to actual values?
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1745080

> The automation modes is a very much needed addition too
Where could I see what are these modes?

ORIGINAL: jcatena

> The automation modes is a very much needed addition too
Where could I see what are these modes?

Cubase has some automation modes that Sonar doesn't, i.e. Touch, Latch, Overwrite, Jump. I don't use Cubase but this is how I think they work:

1- Touch: Actually this is Sonar's only mode where automation is written exclusively when the parameter/control is moved.

2- Latch: Extra automation writes are latched onto the existing one.

3- Overwrite: Previous automation is overwritten by the new one.

4- Jump: Not sure how this one works actually :-P.


There was a thread that explained them but I can't find it. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

ORIGINAL: Jose7822

ORIGINAL: jcatena

> The automation modes is a very much needed addition too
Where could I see what are these modes?

Cubase has some automation modes that Sonar doesn't, i.e. Touch, Latch, Overwrite, Jump. I don't use Cubase but this is how I think they work:

1- Touch: Actually this is Sonar's only mode where automation is written exclusively when the parameter/control is moved.

2- Latch: Extra automation writes are latched onto the existing one.

3- Overwrite: Previous automation is overwritten by the new one.

4- Jump: Not sure how this one works actually :-P.


There was a thread that explained them but I can't find it. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Latch mode is the most important mode to add. I can live without the others. In Logic latch mode was very useful I truly miss it in Sonar. It really comes into its own with a CS. If you don't have a CS it may not be as important a mode to have.

Added 4th point to OP.

Thanks Jon!

Yes it means a lot to me considering the amount of response this thread has gotten so far. I thought this would be a hot topic :-(

Where are the people who use automation at?

Hi Jose.

I like those ideas.

Number 2 is especially interesting, and you'd think wouldn't be difficult to implement.

But number 4 is essential IMV. Managing automation in Sonar is way too global and procedural.

Re: the automating the plugin bypass switch, you're probably already aware of this.... With the Sonitus plugins, even through the bypass switch can not be directly automated on or off, it is possible to simulate that using the A/B switch. Basically, set up your main EQ as Setup A. Then use Setup B to zero (default) all of the controls. Sonar AM will then record changes in each individual control's value each time you click the A/B button.

Unfortunately this will leave you with a TON of envelopes in the track, many/most of which will be extraneous, and turning them on/off individually is so inefficient that it's effectively impossible. It gets it bypassing done though. There are other "cleaner" ways of doing it of course that don't actually use automation itself (eg clone the track, set the alternate EQs, distribute the clips according to their EQ needs.... I know... I know....)

Yes! Sonar needs to overhaul how automation is created, displayed, edited, and managed, including how offset mode works. Too primitive.

Hi Jose.

I didn't mean to say that offset in partic was primitive. I was referring to the automation implementation generally, the way it was too global, envelope clutter, etc.

I know what you mean about forgetting that you're in offset mode. And there too, offset mode is global, with the visual indicators either all on or all off. The offset states are too hidden.... similar to how, if you want to de-clutter a track by hiding envelopes, it can be done, but requires too many steps to hide and then reshow them, and you can easily forget that their there.

Overall I think automation needs to be more granular and more transparent, less hidden and less menu-driven.

I'm bumping this because the op has great ideas.

I think it needs more curves, at the mo it only has linear, fast and slow. They are the same ones acid had in version 2, it now has four extra ones including a smooth one which is a linear with a slow attack and release. very natural sounding, Im really missing that one!

ORIGINAL: shakey.oberon

I think it needs more curves, at the mo it only has linear, fast and slow. They are the same ones acid had in version 2, it now has four extra ones including a smooth one which is a linear with a slow attack and release. very natural sounding, Im really missing that one!

You just reminded me of another idea I forgot to include. That's the addition of anchors to the enevelope nodes. This will serve to cutomize the shape of the curves anyway you want (like you can in Adobe Premier Pro CS4). Thanks for reminding me :-)

Hey SongCraft,

I like the idea of having a new envelope toolbar that includes access to Off-Set Mode and Envelope Properties. But why have different color/shape nodes?

FYI, Cakewalk already implemented a way for doing precision editing called Aim Assist Cursor in Sonar 8.


Take care!

Some nice ideas Jose.

Number 1, the on/off thing... would be nice, but i often get glitches when i switch plugins on and off during playback. Things go out of sync etc. It's worse when looping is enabled. Maybe i just need a better computer.

Number 4, hide/show automation... this really should be adressed. I make dance music and it's not unusual for me to have 10 to 15 envelopes on one audio track. This means when i want to edit an envelope, i need to first hide all envelopes and then right-click and show the envelope that i want to edit.
Not the way i want to be working in 2009.

Number 5, anchors... i was amazed when i discovered Sonar didn't even have this function. Soundforge's 'Smooth' curve (S-shape) should be easy enough to implement. We should have that at least.

And for my own input... clip based/pattern based automation. Like when you change the position of a node and it updates the position of the same node in every following bar? Such a simple little thing, but so devastating to my workflow. It's the one single thing that stops Sonar being a DAW ideal for dance music, and if i ever switch to another DAW, i'm pretty sure it will be because i'm not able to link blocks of automation like i can with audio and midi.
When people ask me "what's a good DAW for dance music", i NEVER advise them to use Sonar, because no-one should have to struggle with automation like i do. I just tell them to check out Ableton or FL Studio.