DW_Mike
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Yet Another Envelope Rant
PLEASE, Please, Pretty Please Cakewalk. Can you try and find out what makes your envelope's so damn iffy, touchy and un-predictable. I just got done spending 2 hours on a mix. I was just about finished except I wanted to adjust a node on a volume envelope. When I clicked on the node I got the good'ol crash dump. I didn't even get a chance to adjust it yet. WTF? Lost all my work in the last 2 hours.  Enough already. This is a feature the should be rock solid by now. I know it's been said before but would it be asking too much to get things like this stable before offering some more useless toys in the next version? In the mean time, does anyone know of any 3rd party plug-ins that might be able to offer stable envelopes? I doubt it, but if it means I don't have to deal with the buggy Sonar ones I'm willing to pay. Rant Over! Mike
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Jose7822
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/15 11:47:25
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That's a very unique crash Mike. This sounds like one of those crashes that involves doing some ackward specific steps in order to reproduce it (unless you've been having it occur regularly). I'm saying this because I move envelope nodes all the time without Sonar crashing on me. It could also be a plugin that doesn't like envelopes. Can you reproduce this crash?
P.S. I'm sure you now know why we always suggest to save often :-)
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kcearl
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/15 12:56:52
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I think assigning envelopes is Sonars worst feature...for me it is its largest let down after using Live and trying Samplitude..its an absolute breeze on them Oh and something like Logics Mainstage wouldn't go amiss and a tea making facility Mind you...love the rest of it 
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yorolpal
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/15 13:02:25
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Have to agree with the envelopes being flaky. My pet peeve with them is that many, many times when I try grab a node and move it it ends up moving the entire envelope. Or, worse, throws me into some expanded "selected" view of what I don't know...the expanded envelope view?? Sometime it just won't let me move a node at all until I've taken some other non-related mouse action. I use em all the time...but they scare me. 
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Jose7822
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/15 13:03:22
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DW_Mike
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/15 15:59:58
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Thanks Jose. That's the problem I seem to have with my envelope issues. I can never reproduce them. Sometimes they work fine and sometimes they don't. And it always seems to be something new. LOL and yeah I know about the save and am usually really good with it. Actually I was just going to move that last node and hit save but I was one move too late.  Mike
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arkiruthis
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/15 16:02:30
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I particularly dread orphaned envelopes. Once an envelope is orphaned, I know a crash is never very far away... Also, the selection of nodes seems to go wierd sometimes. If I select a node, sometimes I'll get a couple of others selected as well. If I delete one single node, sometimes 2 others get deleted at the same time. Perhaps time for a fresh implementation of envelopes. With Beziers. 
post edited by arkiruthis - 2009/07/15 16:03:49
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vocalid
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Gregmang
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/15 17:09:54
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yes, envelopes are the weakest part of an otherwise stellar product (S8).
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jb
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/15 17:49:16
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ORIGINAL: yorolpal
My pet peeve with them is that many, many times when I try grab a node and move it it ends up moving the entire envelope. Or, worse, throws me into some expanded "selected" view of what I don't know...the expanded envelope view?? Sometime it just won't let me move a node at all until I've taken some other non-related mouse action. I use em all the time...but they scare me.
Are you using the envelope tool? Making sure you haven't accidentally selected the entire envelope?
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...wicked
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/15 18:06:33
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+1, I find envelopes to have some quirky behaviors too.
Ever since they shrunk the node size, I almost always end up moving a whole envelope at one point. I hate that.
And also agree that they have unpredictable behavior in large projects with a lot of plugs. Sometimes they stop responding, sometimes they stick, and sometimes they flat out crash.
And yah, finally, the lack of good drawing tools has been noted for several versions now. Seems like a great time to rip the guts out and put a better enveloping system in. I use them extensively when mixing, so I'd LOVE to see some new whiz-bang in them, if not simple stability.
=========== The Fog People =========== Intel i7-4790 16GB RAM ASUS Z97 Roland OctaCapture Win10/64 SONAR Platinum 64-bit billions VSTs, some of which work
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Honest_Al
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/15 18:11:49
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PLEASE, Please, Pretty Please Cakewalk. Can you try and find out what makes your envelope's so damn iffy, touchy and un-predictable. +1! ..and Hi Mike, good to "see" you!  Thanks for pushing this (once again)..thx also go to Jose. I tried hard NOT to post here (i'm moving in 3 days and really got to continue packing!) but I couldn't resist - there's too much history to all this ;) At the end of 2005 we finally got freehand drawing (Ron Kuper was kind enough to listen and realize it's needed) and that's after years of complaining here about automation of VST's and envelopes in general.. i was always a complainer, right..  hundreds of posts, many "please please please make it right this time" etc. funny, I found this one now - http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=340600&mpage=1&key=RSI ..there are older ones of course
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Jose7822
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/15 18:14:23
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Wow Sonar 4!
That's some history alright.
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Marah
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/15 18:18:53
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ORIGINAL: jb
Are you using the envelope tool? Making sure you haven't accidentally selected the entire envelope?
Yes it's important to be sure you have the right tool selected. But that gets to a bigger problem, which is that it shouldn't be necessary to switch to separate tool in the first place. The actions of the mouse pointer should be determined by the context of the click. Unnecessary tool switching slows the UI.
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Jose7822
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/15 18:22:16
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ORIGINAL: Marah
Unnecessary tool switching slows the UI.
Actually, it slows me :-P
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Marah
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/15 18:55:02
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ORIGINAL: Jose7822
ORIGINAL: Marah
Unnecessary tool switching slows the UI.
Actually, it slows me :-P
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dontletmedrown
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/15 19:12:25
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Add me to the list of people that would love to see some automation improvements. The main improvement I want: to be able to adjust multiple envelopes (on different tracks) at the same time. I don't want to have to send them to a bus and create a bus envelope (since that makes it a pain in the ass to do basic volume adjustments on the bus).
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yorolpal
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/15 20:11:16
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ORIGINAL: Marah
ORIGINAL: jb
Are you using the envelope tool? Making sure you haven't accidentally selected the entire envelope?
Yes it's important to be sure you have the right tool selected.
But that gets to a bigger problem, which is that it shouldn't be necessary to switch to separate tool in the first place.
The actions of the mouse pointer should be determined by the context of the click. Unnecessary tool switching slows the UI.
Yup, I'm using the right...er...tool. Or I am one. Or something. But Marah is exactly right about this...why on earth do I need to "select" umpteen tools?? Context mousing. +1 (might even make a good band name)
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Marah
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/15 20:42:34
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Plus if I'm not mistaken... when the mouse crosses over into the bus pane, it automatically switches to envelope mode, since there's nothing else there for you to edit.
That automatic switch makes some sense. But it's inconsistent with how it works in the track section, where you have to switch.
Obviously... one could argue... that there ARE other objects there to be edited, so what I'm calling an inconsistency is really just a difference in functionality between buses and tracks. But the need to switch tools unnecesarily exaggerates and even enforces that difference.
In practice, in terms of how you approach "envelopes" they're the same no matter where they are. When I want to select a node and move it down 4db, , I want to select a node and move it down 4db. There's no reason it should be different just because it's on a track instead of a bus. In both places, they do the exact same thing: change the level of their respective channels.
The way it works now is the essence of unintuitive. You can LEARN how it works, and then remember how it works (except when it momentarily slips your mind), and that can look and feel very similar to "intuitive." But it's not at all. It's way too procedural. The less thinking and conscious memory and context-parsing required, the better. That's intuitive.
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SongCraft
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/15 21:07:47
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ORIGINAL: arkiruthis
I particularly dread orphaned envelopes. Once an envelope is orphaned, I know a crash is never very far away...
Also, the selection of nodes seems to go wierd sometimes. If I select a node, sometimes I'll get a couple of others selected as well. If I delete one single node, sometimes 2 others get deleted at the same time.
Perhaps time for a fresh implementation of envelopes. With Beziers.
That does seem to be the case but I haven't had a crash yet, I try to limit the amount of nodes as less as possible and not use envelopes at all unless it's absolutely necessary. I agree that envelopes needs improvements! Switching tools (as Marah said) shouldn't be necessary either. Improvements be it envelope lanes, envelope event lists, manager, inspector, toolbar but with focus being on 'stability and easier, faster workflow' such as 'new key commands' for entering and editing including show/hide and nudge, setup various options, and a new "singular node' with time set in minutes, beats or measures set either L, R or C that would be ideal for easier, quicker handling for example: peaks, cuts, or on/off, fades and options to adjust time in curves but also have presets in options that can be altered by highlighting a curve and using nudge. Earlier this year I submitted ideas to FR, I suggest if anyone else has ideas to improve envelopes to submit them to FR.
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MatsonMusicBox
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/15 21:17:30
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could some improvements be made? yeah, of course, but gotta tell ya - I just don't have that much trouble working with envelopes and I do it a lot. 90% of my original gripes were "cured" by just remembering to actually select the envelope tool instead of the regular pointer.
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randwool
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/15 21:27:56
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musec07
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/15 22:25:45
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ORIGINAL: yorolpal
Have to agree with the envelopes being flaky. My pet peeve with them is that many, many times when I try grab a node and move it it ends up moving the entire envelope. Or, worse, throws me into some expanded "selected" view of what I don't know...the expanded envelope view?? Sometime it just won't let me move a node at all until I've taken some other non-related mouse action. I use em all the time...but they scare me.
I constantly experience this problem.
This has become so familiar to me... What I do now is click in the track below...anywhere to the left of the node I just assigned or wish to modify.
It changes the node color from white back to green (the colors of my particular layout...yours may vary).
Upon intial assignment of modification of a node... it seems the program feature becomes somewhat volatile... at any one time the program could just "VANISH" as SONAR has been wont to do since back before I can reacall... the program may freeze or the whole envelope may move up and down...
YEP... I know this behavior well. YOU ARE NOT ALONE AS YOU THOUGHT MY OL PAL
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dbmusic
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/16 00:48:53
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Using the E and T keys to switch back and forth to the Envelope Tool doesn't seem all that unintuitive or in any way workflow prohibitive to me. Once I started using the Envelope Tool my life in Sonar became a lot easier (I can't tell you how many times I've opened that damn loop explorer view because I double-clicked and missed the envelope  ). Then there was was that weird bug where if you accidentally right-clicked on a node and brought up the track pop-up menu it would freeze the entire envelope. While I've always managed to do what I needed to do with envelopes I will agree they are rather clumsily implemented. Envelopes can be a very useful sound sculpting tool and deserve much more developmental consideration toward a more elegant design. Best regards, DB
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musec07
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/16 00:58:13
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ORIGINAL: dbmusic
Using the E and T keys to switch back and forth to the Envelope Tool doesn't seem all that unintuitive or in any way workflow prohibitive to me. Once I started using the Envelope Tool my life in Sonar became a lot easier (I can't tell you how many times I've opened that damn loop explorer view because I double-clicked and missed the envelope ). Then there was was that weird bug where if you accidentally right-clicked on a node and brought up the track pop-up menu it would freeze the entire envelope.
While I've always managed to do what I needed to do with envelopes I will agree they are rather clumsily implemented. Envelopes can be a very useful sound sculpting tool and deserve much more developmental consideration toward a more elegant design.
Best regards,
DB
Hear! Hear! I just wrapped up a product with a lot of volume envelopes... as long as I do as I stated above... it works perfectly and yes they deserve some more attention in SONAR... ACID Pro 7 is great to work on the fly with envelopes... BUT I'm betting SONAR will make 'em look silly after a while! I hope! 
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SongCraft
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/16 06:18:49
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ORIGINAL: randwool
Global Options>Auto-save
Auto-save mistakes too I guess LOL!! IMHO I prefer to always use Ctrl+S after an edit that I actually want to save.
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MatsonMusicBox
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/16 07:05:45
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ORIGINAL: dbmusic
Using the E and T keys to switch back and forth to the Envelope Tool doesn't seem all that unintuitive or in any way workflow prohibitive to me. Once I started using the Envelope Tool my life in Sonar became a lot easier ........
Yep - exactly what I was saying - I think many or most of the problems described happen when people try to use the regular pointer tool on the envelopes - that is really finicky I agree - but like I said, just choosing the right tool has made it easy-breazy fro me, to the point where my remaining envelope complaints are very minor.
post edited by MatsonMusicBox - 2009/07/16 07:06:17
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SongCraft
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/16 07:45:56
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Hi dbmusic
I agree. As you said; the way envelopes are implemented in SONAR is clumsy and needs development! (This has been discussed for more than a year or so)
I use envelopes in all my songs, I also use key commands all the time for ease + speedier workflow. If possible I only use envelopes if it's absolutely necessary because I like to keep my projects uncomplicated and well organized.
That said,.. I think you may have misunderstood my previous post when I said 'envelopes needs improvements' - 'Switching tools shouldn't be necessary either' ---- what I meant if in 'future upgrade release' Cakewalk enhanced the workflow handling (editing) of envelopes/nodes so that switching tool would not be necessary but rather the need for new key commands for things more important such as show/hide envelopes, latch, change curve, insert predefined envelope setups, presets, options, a lot of ideas over the years have already been suggested not only by me but by others!
As you said, you want developments?, then I strongly suggest submitting your ideas to FR because CW has said many times that is the preferred method.
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DeveryH
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/16 08:18:52
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The only time I have problems with envelopes is after about two hours of editing. I will let you know that I tend to save after every edit. The thing that happens time and time again after long sessions is I will go to edit the envelope/node (e.g. I will move the node down or up) and it will pop back into place. Once it does this I know I need to save and restart. Why it does this I have no idea. Once I figured it out it has become a non issue. Other than that I think Sonar's automation and envelopes are spot on.
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dbmusic
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RE: Yet Another Envelope Rant
2009/07/16 08:48:37
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ORIGINAL: SongCraft
As you said, you want developments?, then I strongly suggest submitting your ideas to FR because CW has said many times that is the preferred method.
SongCraft, Like you mentioned, the need for envelope improvement has been discussed for quite some time now and are well known. I do believe that threads such as this one are valuable in keeping such issues in the forefront. I have to admit though it gets a little frustrating when obvious needs for improvement do not get implemented in release after release. The simple need or key binding a clip envelope is one...or better yet, just do what Samplitude does and automatically place a volume envelope on all audio clips. ORIGINAL: spanky
The only time I have problems with envelopes is after about two hours of editing. I will let you know that I tend to save after every edit. The thing that happens time and time again after long sessions is I will go to edit the envelope/node (e.g. I will move the node down or up) and it will pop back into place. Once it does this I know I need to save and restart. Why it does this I have no idea. Once I figured it out it has become a non issue. Other than that I think Sonar's automation and envelopes are spot on.
Hi spanky, This is a known envelope bug (at least it's been discussed here and problem reports have been submitted). It happens when you are left-clicking and dragging and envelope node and accidentally right-click your mouse. Best regards, DB
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