John Larson
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New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
I'm a new user of Cakewalk Sonar 8 Producer. I'm trying to learn how to use drums and I'm missing a big first step.
When I have nothing at all on a new project and create a single new midi track - there's an option in output for new drum maps. There appear to be lots of drum maps. But I never hear anything when I selet them. If I select a drum map, I see drum sounds listed in my piano roll and step sequencer, but when I enter notes I never hear anything.
It's like I need the input to be a drum map, with the output to be to a synthesizer or something.
What basic step am I missing? I appreciate any help.
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...wicked
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/11 20:37:33
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Yah, that's exactly right. The drum map just helps organize data that would be triggering an audio source. So you need to insert a soft-synth or trigger an external one. MIDI is the instructions, it needs the other half to work right.
So, try inserting Session Drummer 3 and then playing around with drum maps and MIDI, that should get you going.
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Sound Advice
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/11 21:24:05
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speaking of drum maps, why?
maybe that's a stupid question, but so far the way i understand it, is that basically they are simply piano roll except with the instrument name placed next to the right piano key.
which is kind of nice, but it doesn't seem to warrant spending the time to build the drum map.
I've only ever really used battery 3 for my drums, so maybe with other VSTs it's more useful due to the way Battery works?
or is there some other functionality i'm missing?
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...wicked
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/11 23:14:38
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Drum maps (to me) serve two purposes: - they allow note names which helps editing, esp. in PRV
- they let you assemble a drum kit from more than one synth, so you could have a drum map triggering notes from, say, Session Drummer 3, Battery 3, and a sampler. By inserting between the MIDI in and the MIDI out they enable that kind of customization.
But, the UI is absurdly outdated and convoluted. Functions aren't easy to do en masse. I hate 'em.
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Skyline_UK
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 05:02:45
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Maybe I'm not doing things right, but I had a go at drum maps once and it whilst it was nice to have all the keys labelled with the names of the kit items, it frankly took too long (cf. wicked's post above). Ever since, if I'm using Addictive Drums, Battery, etc. I just hit the piano key in piano roll view to find out what's triggering what and that's good enough to get on with what I'm doing. But as I said, I may be missing something here...
post edited by Skyline_UK - 2009/11/12 05:06:05
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Wood67
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 05:53:43
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+1 to above. Thought I'd have a go while reading through the Sonar Power User book. After about an hour or so I stopped out of frustration. One of the additional things using a DM can give you is the ability to solo instruments within the map, which you can't normally do if they are all on the same midi channel in the standard PRV. Useful, but not worth the hassle.
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hellogoodbye
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 06:01:14
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I only use drum maps that are ready for use: I don't make them. I downloaded drum maps for EZDrummer because it is very nice being able to see which sound is where: specially the Latin and Twisted EZX's have a different sound on almost every available key and being able to see where the sounds are is a BIG time saver! Surely beats 'simply triggering' a 100 keys or so to find what's where...! ;) (Unfortunately with 8.5.1 a drum map prevents midi input echo, but CW is working on that.)
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Sixfinger
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 08:38:38
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I've been playing with them a bit over that last couple of weeks. I do like how you and move all the various hats close to each other, or cymbles, whatever, but when using a drum map and Superior, if I solo the drums it is no long assosiate with the superior output track. Perhaps there are other ways say using an instrument track or folders. Simply and observation in my experiments. (Yes I put on my science coat to type this)
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SilverfoxUK
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 08:51:36
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Personally, I think Drum Maps are great. They enable you to be able to Solo/Mute each drum, see the velocity in a nice tail view and use friendly names. For my eyes, the note data looks more like drum 'hits' too. Blades very kindly created an excellent Tutorial on setting up Drum Maps but I am having trouble getting his new website to show it to me. Now working perfect - nice one Blades Here is link: http://www.blades85.com/sonar.htm (just click Drum Maps near bottom of page) Drum maps are definately worth the effort imo. Enjoy!
post edited by SilverfoxUK - 2009/11/12 08:56:05
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Susan G
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 08:57:58
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I agree that the DM UI needs a major overhaul! One "secret" a lot of Users seem to miss is that any of the drop-downs can be assigned to multiple notes at a time if you use Ctrl+Shift+Click. So for eg., you can select any notes you want to send to a particular Channel or Port, etc., then click Ctrl+Shift and select the option you want from the drop-down list. Click OK and the option will be applied to all the notes you selected in one fell swoop. Forum member Blades made an excellent tutorial on Drum Maps, available here: http://www.blades85.com/sonar.htm And yes, there are plenty of pre-fabbed maps available for nearly any synth/kit nowadays, so it would be rare that you'd have to start from scratch. -Susan
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 09:09:24
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I built a complete drum map for an 18 piece BFD2 kit from the keel upwards in about 30 minutes, including multiple articulations, mapping / routing etc.
It looks a lot more complicated than it is. Set up a simple one and find out for yourself just how easy it is.
Then you can access each kit parts Mute / Solo status from the prv.
Invaluable when you're editing drums.
I'm going to setp a new one up for a BFD kit based on the percussion set pretty soon - I'll let you know how it goes.
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Susan G
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 09:18:52
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Hi Colin- in about 30 minutes, including multiple articulations, mapping / routing etc. That's about the same as my experience. There are SO many ways the UI could be better, but once you get past that, it's really not that difficult to create a map from scratch, and even easier to modify an existing one. It's worth it for me to have an accurate drum map in PRV, so if it takes a few extra minutes, that's no big deal. -Susan
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Amazed
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 09:36:47
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So why Susan do we have drum maps when we have instrument definitions?. That's the only part of this process I'm familiar with. Instrument definitions give me note names. I looked at drum map once or twice but never got the point at all. I've never used them at all. What do I miss?
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hellogoodbye
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 09:44:09
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Wow, that's an intersting video (from Blades)! I've got a 'problem' with (for example) the EZX Twisted kit, that some sounds I want to use are out of my keyboard range, even when I use transpose. But I see now that I can assign a different out to any key in the drum map! So I can set for instance key 36 (IN) to actually play key 127 (OUT). Nice! This way I will be able to PLAY rhythms I want to on my keyboard: I thought I was forced to painting things in the piano roll. Changing the output is easily and quickly done. Nice. Only thing is: drum maps are global, right? So if I make a special modified drum map for a specific song and do that a few times, I end up with loads of drum maps... They aren't saved with a song, are they? EDIT: Hm, apparently (just finished watching the movie ;) ) you can change anything you want in a drum map without actually saving it, so the settings ARE saved with the song. Nice. And you can also send various notes to another synth (handy when I want to use specific sounds from various EZX's). Very interesting. I was thinking about buying the crossgrade to SD2 mainly for remapping things, but apparently Sonar can do that too! :)
post edited by hellogoodbye - 2009/11/12 09:48:14
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Susan G
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 09:58:30
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Hi Amazed- Again, check out Blades' video if you're not sure what you're missing by not using Drum Maps. I can't say whether they'd be useful for you or not, but those videos are definitely worth checking out for a better understanding of what they're about. Instrument Definitions and Drum Maps are totally different animals. Instrument Synths (hard or soft) typically have multiple banks of sounds with multiple patches (or "sounds" or "voices") in each (eg. Piano, Electric Keyboard, yada-yada). Those show up in Instrument Definitions. Drum Kits typically have different sounds assigned to each note, and possibly multiple articulations. Those show up in Drum Maps. HTH- -Susan EDIT: As a practical example, I have a hardware synth (Motif) which has multiple sound banks, lots of voices in each. I can switch banks and voices at will, and of course I can play any note throughout the range of the keyboard and still hear the same "voice" (let's call it Piano). If I switch to a Drum Kit on the Motif, each note on the Motif keyboard plays a different drum or percussion instrument, not the same "voice" (Piano) at all. I have Drum Maps for my Motif Drum Kits, Instrument Definitions for my Motif banks/patches, have had for years(!), and it's much easier for me to work that way. YMMV 
post edited by Susan G - 2009/11/12 10:21:03
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Amazed
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 10:11:08
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Susan G
Hi Amazed-
Again, check out Blades' video if you're not sure what you're missing by not using Drum Maps. I can't say whether they'd be useful for you or not, but those videos are definitely worth checking out for a better understanding of what they're about.
Instrument Definitions and Drum Maps are totally different animals. Instrument Synths (hard or soft) typically have multiple banks of sounds with multiple patches (or "sounds" or "voices") in each (eg. Piano, Electric Keyboard, yada-yada). Those show up in Instrument Definitions. Drum Kits typically have different sounds assigned to each note, and possibly multiple articulations. Those show up in Drum Maps.
HTH-
-Susan
Hi, sorry didn't see the blades thing unti, after I posted. Was posting during ... Any way . Excellent video isn't it? If I'd had seen this when i first saw drum maps I would have got the point. I think in the note map properties though instead of the midi note number a midi note name from an instrument definition might be clearer. After all there is an instrument and channel selection just like a track. No reason we couldn't have a note name there.
Thanks for the pointer . Cheers.
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Sound Advice
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 10:26:49
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ok, i see now i think the advantages of drum maps. I'm still not sure if they're for me though.
I think i'd end up using mostly external VSTs to make kits, and with what i have right now, battery, what i like to do is to have all my drums output to their own separate tracks so i can put effects on them in sonar such as sending them all to the same reverb bus or using channel tools on them to place them in my stereo landscape. then i'll also group them to their own busses like "toms" Hihats" "Cymbals". this i find worth the time to set it up. I set it up once and then save that as a template, and then choose a template based on which kit i want to use.
this way, i have all the features of viewing all my instruments in the same piano roll with SONAR's multiple instrument view in piano roll, so i get muting and stuff like that of dindividual drums I even get note names actually come to think of it, but color coded rather than midi note coded. and if i want to switch out one kick or something, that shouldn't be too hard either.
but i'm still a noob so i might end up preferring something different.
what would really make this complete as far as i can tell though, is naming of notes in piano roll.
although with my setup of multiple instruments in one piano roll, i'm not sure how that would work. maybe it's not possible, if so that's not such a big deal i guess but it would be nice.
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SilverfoxUK
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 10:28:48
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Errr, is there an echo in here Susan? ;)
I guess it shows the impact of Blades tutorial though... :)
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Susan G
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 10:29:53
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Hi Amazed- I think in the note map properties though instead of the midi note number a midi note name from an instrument definition might be clearer. After all there is an instrument and channel selection just like a track. No reason we couldn't have a note name there. I'm not sure I'm following you here. You can right-click and toggle b/w note names and note numbers in the PRV. Are you talking about directly in the DMM? I see both the note number and name there. Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying. -Susan
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Susan G
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 10:42:01
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Hi Sam-
Errr, is there an echo in here Susan? ;)
I posted again, but you're right, you did beat me by a lot! Sorry about that! And yes, Blades' video is well worth pointing to whenever this subject comes up. -Susan
post edited by Susan G - 2009/11/12 10:59:26
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Sound Advice
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 10:50:20
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I'm having trouble with instrument definitions. i looked through the help file and it was sort of helpful but it wants me to point always to a file, which i don't have. is there a way to use drum maps as name definitions file for instrument definitions?
i kind of figured out that i could add the notes manually but i'd need to know what all of the midi note names are already. and to be honest, if i knew that, i wouldn't need to name them in the first place. kind of annoying.
is there not a way we can do this from within piano roll, or maybe so we can hit a key and then hear the sound, and then name it?
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Susan G
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 11:09:48
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Hi Sound Advice-
What instrument definitions are you looking for? SONAR ships with lots, and there are others available (see cakewalknet.com), but it's hard to help if we don't know what you're looking for.
No, you can't use Drum Maps as Instrument Definition files. Two different things.
-Susan
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Sound Advice
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 11:25:46
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basically i'd like to set up my drumkits as i posted above, each drum to it's own track in sonar, and then grouped into busses, ans i'd like to use the, multi-track piano roll for my midi editing (which i still haven't figured out how to edit via midi keyboard input, but that's another story) but it would also be nice if i could have note names on my piano roll.
i'd like setup names for kits i would use in battery 3.
maybe drum maps is just a better way to go?
i found battery 3 drum maps. and that would be ok, can you record midi directly into it on top of what you already recorded? for instance, if i have hihats down, or one day i want to change a small part, but i don't want to bother with quantizing and figuring out the swing of it, and all that, and since it's multiple notes, don't really want to go into eyeballing/listening, since sometimes that way on multiple notes things can be kind of misleading. so i'd just like to record say a bass drum and snare over pre-existing hihats without disturbing them.
i also noticed that it is fairly easy from that video, that i'll need to look at again, to make individual tracks for your samples. so i may convert to drum maps after all.
I forget how easy it really is, i remember the guy said, something like so you can just, and then 20 steps later including a "i wish you could name this stuff" he had done it. so i'm not sure really how easy it is.
idk, i'm mixed between two things right now.
i'll check out that site though. thx
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Sound Advice
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 12:04:11
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ok, i gave building a new drum map a shot, with an existing project i have.
the way i had it before was one midi track and all individual outputs for individual drums from Battery 3. so every drum is a different track.
i made my drum map, and output it to battery 3, so in my drum map view, if i click on drum hits, or click on the drum name the appropriate sound comes out, however when i play my track i get no drum sounds. any ideas?
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Sound Advice
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 12:46:42
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oh, i figured it out. it was my channels. i had switched the channels in the battery software. but i had switched them to stereo channels. or at least, to two channels for each drum, but now drum map only lets me select one.
is this bad?
I still have my audio output tracks for each individual drum. presumably dual channel, certainly stereo intput/output.
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Sound Advice
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 13:11:04
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guess what? i've run into something else i don't quite understand. ever since i switched to drum maps. my battery 3 plays all my drums. but i can no longer activated some of them with my midi keyboard. which i don't understand. the midi learn funciton in my battery 3 doesn't detect the presence of my midi keyboard either. only on some of the notes already used by other drums.
is there a limit on how many channels you have in your drum map or something? idk. i'm stumped.
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hellogoodbye
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 13:14:25
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O, darn... That idea of remapping keys (so I can play out of range notes on my keyboard) is really great, but it won't work with 8.5.1 due to the midi input echo bug... Bummer... Anyone knows when the next patch will be released? EDIT: Sound Advice
guess what? i've run into something else i don't quite understand. ever since i switched to drum maps. my battery 3 plays all my drums. but i can no longer activated some of them with my midi keyboard. which i don't understand. the midi learn funciton in my battery 3 doesn't detect the presence of my midi keyboard either. only on some of the notes already used by other drums.
is there a limit on how many channels you have in your drum map or something? idk. i'm stumped.
Must be that bug I just talked about... As soon as you enable a drum map in 8.5.1 you won't be able to play the drums with the keyboard anymore...
post edited by hellogoodbye - 2009/11/12 13:16:22
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Blades
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 13:49:48
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Hey all - glad the video is proving to be useful (I take tips via Paypal on the site, BTW  ) @hellogoodbye and SoundAdvice re: midi through from a controller in 8.5.1 WORKAROUND: So, you've seen the bug. Here's how you can get around it in two steps - just remember to save your project so that they stick * On the midi track where the drum map is being used, activate the arpeggiator. * In the settings for that arpeggiator, change the Mix parameter to 100%. This will get you arond the bug and prevent your drum input from being arp'd. I'm sure it's still happening somewhere in the processing, but you can't hear it and this works fine until they come out with a patch. @SusanG and SilverFoxUK: Thanks for the website/video plug!
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hellogoodbye
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 15:00:22
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Thanks for the workaround!!! :)
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Kev999
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Re:New User - whats the deal with Drum Maps?
2009/11/12 15:16:06
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SilverfoxUK
Personally, I think Drum Maps are great.
They enable you to be able to Solo/Mute each drum, see the velocity in a nice tail view and use friendly names. For my eyes, the note data looks more like drum 'hits' too.
Drum maps are great when you've got them, but creating them is a pain.
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