Audio Myths Workshop

Audio Myths Workshop 
 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ



enjoie!

it's quite the ear opener.

i suppose most folks here, have read or actually figured a lot of this out.

but man, it'll cure your GAS quick!

This is a very interesting video and well worth watching. Maybe we should put something in the Techniques thread to attract some attention to it.

It reinforces many things I have believed for a long time. Things about analog vs digital, AB tests, and also myths about noise being audible, dither, phase distortion, and different EQ plug ins having different sounds.

It also is great for showing that an Apogee sound card does not sound that much different from a Creative Sound Blaster as well.

And most importantly that there are many factors outside the audio signal chain eg monitor placement, position for listening, reflections, comb filtering etc that effect things far more significantly than the tiny differences that are happening within the technology and different brands of technology as well.  As also is the performance, the sound that musicians make on their instruments, mike placement etc. will have a much more significant change to a sound than any technology that follows it.

As I have said before (and some disagreed with me on this) Leo Kottke will have the same emotional impact on you as a listener no matter if it is a $300 Rode mike through a typical preamp and A to D converter as opposed to a very expensive mike through state of the art preamps and converters. It is him you are hearing not the technolgy so much.

Thanks for posting this link. 

I became acqainted with Ethan Winer about seven years ago when I had to move my 6' 8" Kawai grand into a relatively small room.  I ended up buying his RealTraps and put them up in the ceiling corners.  The lower octaves sound amazing now.

Ethan is a quirky guy that has a wide range of interests.  He's an outspoken critic of lots of audio products.  Some of the attacks he gets on-line are about as vitriolic as it gets.  His Acoustics Forum over on MusicPlayer.com is worth checking out, especially if you're new to acoustics.

good practical stuff there.....

Jeff Evans


As I have said before (and some disagreed with me on this) Leo Kottke will have the same emotional impact on you as a listener no matter if it is a $300 Rode mike through a typical preamp and A to D converter as opposed to a very expensive mike through state of the art preamps and converters. It is him you are hearing not the technolgy so much.

Do you think when Kottke realizes this and make the switch, he'll be kind enough to send me his old gear?

Anayway, I was trying to listen to this over my aircard today. too many stops and start. I got 14:30 into it and had to stop.

I'm anxious to get through the whole thing, though,

I'd like to keep this thread bumped to page 1, because every single reader of this forum should be required to sit down and view this video.

Especially those who are entertaining the idea of entering into an argument with yours truly. It would save me a great deal of typing.

Jonbouy.... I remember you defending the realtec a time or two.... the thing that still amazes me is how you are able to work with it and not have severe latency issues that most other people encounter.

That is the main reason I steer people away from Realtec and most other factory cards....I have always believed that digital cards no matter the name are all capable of delivering superb audio... but  that nasty latency especially when working with real time soft synths, VST's and CPU heavy FX is the achillies heel of the factory cards.

I have also sat and tried to hear a difference between dithered and undithered audio....... nope... I could never hear it. The video confirmed in my mind things that I also believed...... such as the superiority of a $500 cable over a quality $20 cable....nothing but marketing hype...and if they show the stats or a picture of the improved wave form...... it's so small that humans are incapable of hearing the difference. Heck...I used to use some old stiff radio shack "el-cheapo" cords in my studio. When I upgraded about 2.5 yrs back, I did buy new cables at the same time I got my interface... but again.... they are closer to the cheap end than the high end.

I think the same "effect" is noticeable with cars.... after all, doesn't your car seem to run better, and smoother after you change the oil and wash the exterior?

The rocks in a jar got me laughing.

good stuff. Loved the backwards tape stuff at the beginning.
LOL...

Thank you so much, batsbrew!  This was fascinating.  I just loved the story about the fake switch that selected a tube vs. transistor amp and how the respective camps thought their preference sounded better.  Loved the backwards text bit as well.  In fact, I was rivited to the presentation for the entire 58 minutes.  Great stuff!

batsbrew


Audio Myths Workshop 



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ



enjoie!

I watched the entire clip. I especially liked the part about auto-suggestion and sight suggestion. I'm left with a few concerns that it was just another choice in theories and a sophisticated sell for Real Traps in the end. It was an excellant presentation and encompassed a wide area of recording.
But I am left with the feeling that we have become so used to listening in a conventional room environment that we can not yet handle or envision a pristine listening environment, ie: one with no reflections. Many people use the trap method and adjust their awareness to it and the results are certainly better. But as was stated in the presentation, if you're not thinking with the science, you could be just fooling yourself. Even the masters are catching up on their success's and trying to figure out how things have changed.

Trust your ears!! By doing so you'll ultimately save your wallet!!

All things considered, the most sound advice to date.
Assuming one has done some minimal "training" on what to listen for.

But I am left with the feeling that we have become so used to listening in a conventional room environment that we can not yet handle or envision a pristine listening environment, ie: one with no reflections. Many people use the trap method and adjust their awareness to it and the results are certainly better. But as was stated in the presentation, if you're not thinking with the science, you could be just fooling yourself. Even the masters are catching up on their success's and trying to figure out how things have changed.

 
And this is the point ... create a process with music/rehearsal where you can find these moments ... but too much music rehearsal is old school ... gotta get that chord down and in the right time ... to the point where too many people fail to listen to the event and flow of the music itself ... or the moment in time ... and without the beauty of that "moment" ... the piece will be ... just another copy. It doesn't matter if this is Beethoven, Bach, Mozart ... on the paper it's nothing ... but live ... is another story! ... take a hint ... even from here ... it's not the microphone, or that music would not have lasted as long as it has!
 
It's not about science, or literature or anything else ... it's about that special moment in time ... and the microphone, daw, or staff or paper have absolutely nothing to do with it all ... it's that simple ... but daw experts will think that I am putting them down ... and not realize that ther part might also include one of those moments ... but all in all ... it's easier to find ... if you work with it and express it ... all else? Just an idea or thought!
 
Worse of all ... in literary and artistic studies there is a myriad of essayists that discuss a lot of subjects and history and stuff ... and having Pedro say anything like that here in this place? ... I'm lucky to get Bapu to even notice it! ... (he usually does!) ... and musicians are notoriously bad ... you mention some exercises and rehearsal techniques used in theater, film and literature workshops ... and they freak out ...  and while you have to be protective of your work, you do not have to be protective of "your secret" ... why? ... there is only one YOU ... and that is what many are not seeing when they look at the mirror and is the difference between the big ones and the wannabes.

Crg
I watched the entire clip. I especially liked the part about auto-suggestion and sight suggestion. I'm left with a few concerns that it was just another choice in theories and a sophisticated sell for Real Traps in the end. It was an excellant presentation and encompassed a wide area of recording.
But I am left with the feeling that we have become so used to listening in a conventional room environment that we can not yet handle or envision a pristine listening environment, ie: one with no reflections. Many people use the trap method and adjust their awareness to it and the results are certainly better. But as was stated in the presentation, if you're not thinking with the science, you could be just fooling yourself. Even the masters are catching up on their success's and trying to figure out how things have changed.

Craig,
 
When I first started learning about acoustics, I felt pretty much like what you just wrote.  But after reading, listening, experimenting, etc. I've come to the following conclusions:

• Audio is shaped by everything that touches it.  It's scary complicated.  This makes it vulnerable to mis-information and dubious vendors.
• Although complicated, we can improve it by taking on the 'big rocks' first.   The acoustics of the listening room is a big rock that can usually be easily improved.  Maybe not pristine, but much better. 
• Ethan is an expert in the acoustics of small rooms, like the small studios that most of us have.  The main acoustical problem is that standing waves, especially in the lower frequencies, act as a comb filter.  The easiest, lowest cost way to treat this is absorption.  But, the absorption needs to be broadband.  Carpet, curtins, and most of that foam stuff that is glued to walls acts like a high-pass filter; i.e., it isn't effective for bass.  You need something hefty, like 4" of rigid (compressed and glued) fiberglass.
• As a vendor, I give Ethan high marks because he isn't hiding behind some magic 'secret sauce'.  His website and forums have lots of practical DIY info on building traps and absorbers (the best way to treat a small room.)  Personally, I bought his RealTraps because I wanted absorbers that were not only functional, but looked good in a piano room with double doors facing the entrance of my house.  With a hardwood floor and absorbers in the ceiling, this room is a real joy to play in.  I have trouble getting good piano players to leave.

Anyway, hope this helps.
 
Murray
edit: Meant to say something about your comment that people adjust to rooms with traps.  They probably do, but if the objective is to listen and adjust to a mix, you want the flattest room possible.  I don't think that one can 'adjust' to comb filtering because its effects change as you move.

OK, who wants to start calling me names?

Drew.