godino
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Latency - still dont quite get it!
Hi I monitor my guitar thru a mixer so i can have a higher latency setting on my souncard - currently I have it set to 1024 samples. If I have "use reported latency" box in the preferences unchecked and then record a drum track from a track within sonar, using a microphone connected to my interface(focusrite dsp 24), the resulting recorded track is roughly 1000 samples behind the original drum track. Because of input and output latency - surely the wave should be approx 2000 samples behind the drum track!! or am I missing something?? (apart from a brain)
post edited by godino - 2011/12/17 08:11:53
gordo Sonar Platinum - intel I7 7700K - Windows 10 home 64 bit - focusrite 214i - Roland Guitar Synth GR55 - Maschine Mk3 - Oxygen8 keyboard - Guitars basses etc
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/17 08:12:17
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Use reported latency should sort out the timing for you but if not there is a manual offset entry box in the same dialogue.
I'm a bit confused as to what you mean. The guitar track should be on the drum track not behind it by anything. That is what the "use reported latency" does for you adjusts the timing.
Are you saying it is behind the drums or isn't but you think it should be?
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godino
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/17 08:31:54
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Thanks for the reply
Not really having a problem - Just trying to get my head around latency
and how sonar deals with it
If I press play within sonar, the drums I hear will be delayed by about 1000 samples
If I then record the drums back into sonar using a mic connected to the interface,
then thats another 1000 samples delay
so my recorded drum track should be about 2000 samples behind the original drum track -if no latency compensation was applied
whereas when I look at the waves the recorded drums are only 1000 samples behind the original drums - hope this makes sense!
gordo Sonar Platinum - intel I7 7700K - Windows 10 home 64 bit - focusrite 214i - Roland Guitar Synth GR55 - Maschine Mk3 - Oxygen8 keyboard - Guitars basses etc
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/17 08:45:23
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I think you are over complicating it a little bit especially using an external mixer. There's no need to worry about latency. I run my mixer interface at 2048 samples, Sonar sorts it all out for me. The only time it'll be an issue is if you input monitor, then you need as little latency as possible because it's hard to play an instrument that you are hearing late.
As I understand it the audio stream from the DAW is delayed by Sonar by "your latency amount" so that you can play in real time monitoring your live input outboard. If you are live input monitoring from Sonar it delays the signal as it normally does so you don't hear what you are playing until after you've played it, that's where the trouble with latency comes in.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/17 09:07:17
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godino
Hi
I monitor my guitar thru a mixer so i can have a higher latency setting on my souncard - currently I have it set to 1024 samples.
If I have "use reported latency" box in the preferences unchecked and then record a drum track from a track within sonar, using a microphone connected to my interface(focusrite dsp 24), the resulting recorded track is roughly 1000 samples behind the original drum track.
Because of input and output latency - surely the wave should be approx 2000 samples behind the drum track!! or am I missing something??
(apart from a brain)
The compensation is designed to get you in sync with what is or will be playing back in SONAR. Let's consider the 2000 sample round trip. Every time you hit playback the first 1000 samples of the round trip get's accounted for. When you add a overdub it needs to be compensated the other 1000 samples to sync up the next time you play back. If you don't compensate you'll see the 1000 samples... as you have. This is all over simplified to make the point... there are often other factors that add additional latency. best regards, mike
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brundlefly
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/17 12:03:42
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Note that the adjustment is for "Record Latency". That's input only. The value in the Use ASIO Reported Latency box will be the same as the Input Latency reported in the Driver Settings section.
The idea is that if you play an instrument in sync with what you hear from your monitors, it just has to be compensated for the time it takes to get from the mic into the track, which is input latency. It includes buffer latency, A/D conversion, and usually some hidden latency in the interface and bus, so it will be higher than just the buffer size. The "ASIO Reported" value will usually account for most of that. The manual Offset lets you dial in compensation for any under- or over-reporting of the actual input latency by the driver.
Bottom line is that it doesn't matter how long the reference track took to get out of the DAW, because you effectively waited that long before you started playing. Only the input latency needs to be compensated to align the recording with existing audio.
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godino
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/17 17:52:09
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thanks for the help guys
but still not getting it
perhaps an example might help - i'll use milliseconds instead of samples
say the buffer settings of my interface is set to 30ms
i want to record a guitar note when i hear a snare hit
the snare hit is 100ms into the recording
because of the delay i hear the snare hit approx 130ms into the track
i play my note when i hear the hit
This takes another 30ms to go thru the interface and be converted to digital
so now my note is ready to be written to disk but we are 160ms into the track
if sonar applies only input latency (30ms) wouldn't the note be written to disk at 130ms??
now i know it doesn't!! so where am i going wrong???
gordo Sonar Platinum - intel I7 7700K - Windows 10 home 64 bit - focusrite 214i - Roland Guitar Synth GR55 - Maschine Mk3 - Oxygen8 keyboard - Guitars basses etc
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brundlefly
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/18 01:27:06
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You're thinking in terms of physical tape where the recording track is tied to the playback track, and they have to start together. In digital land, there's nothing that says playback and recording processes have to start at the same time. SONAR knows the output latency, and essentially doesn't start rolling the recording track (to use the tape analogy) until the output latency has elapsed.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/18 04:41:46
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Using your example and the way it works as I understand it (which could well be wrong)............
Sonar knows all about the latencies you describe and adjusts accordingly. So if you play your guitar note smack on when you heard the snare, Sonar will write it there, making any necessary adjustments for latency.
As Brundlefly said it's not a physical thing as in tape head to tape, it's digital in memory therefore not committed to a certain point like it was with tape.
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godino
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/18 04:48:05
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Thanks lads - all is now clear I'll have to get rid of my old fostex x15 4 track tape from the 80's its obviously impairing my thinking 
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jm24
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/18 11:46:54
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You have had your first clear lesson about what can happen when analog and digital boxes can see each other.
Line of sight is to be avoided.
This is what gobos are really for: separation of the old and the daw.
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Outlandish Music
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/18 12:12:22
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Having the same issue with getting to grips with latency here too. I monitor the ooutput from my M Audio 192 card, I play 'in time' but on layback my guitar/bass are out of time.
Buffers set to 11.6ms 512 samples.
In the stnc and cashing screen the Record Latency Adjust device is listed as my POD GX1, I can select the M192 but on applying it always reverts to the GX1
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brundlefly
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/18 12:33:37
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In the stnc and cashing screen the Record Latency Adjust device is listed as my POD GX1, I can select the M192 but on applying it always reverts to the GX1 Make sure the M192 is set as both Playback and Record Timing Master on the Driver Settings page of Audio Preferences.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/18 12:35:25
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Outlandish Music
Having the same issue with getting to grips with latency here too. I monitor the ooutput from my M Audio 192 card, I play 'in time' but on layback my guitar/bass are out of time.
Buffers set to 11.6ms 512 samples.
In the stnc and cashing screen the Record Latency Adjust device is listed as my POD GX1, I can select the M192 but on applying it always reverts to the GX1
I think that may be a bit of a display bug rather than a 'real' bug. Until my recent DAW upgrade my latency adjustment figure was always displayed for my second (non active) device but the actual adjustment was correct and for my primary device. If you are having latency adjustment issues use the 'manual offset' box to adjust as necessary. Zoom in on a wave form to find the figure. I check mine with by recording a MIDI drum hit from one of my external drum machines.
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strikinglyhandsome1
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/18 13:20:04
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I think it picks up the order of drivers from ASIO in the registry. If you alter the drivers name, such as putting a 'z' in front then your other device will be listed in the record latency. Of course, if you do a Line 6 driver update then you need to revert the name back or you can end up with a 'zLine6' and a 'Line6' driver listed.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/18 14:46:33
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strikinglyhandsome1
I think it picks up the order of drivers from ASIO in the registry. If you alter the drivers name, such as putting a 'z' in front then your other device will be listed in the record latency. Of course, if you do a Line 6 driver update then you need to revert the name back or you can end up with a 'zLine6' and a 'Line6' driver listed.
I can see the theory but I'm not entirely sure it's alphabetical, maybe order of install though. I say that because mine always used to show my "Roland Sonic Cell" even though I don't have the audio drivers selected in Sonar before my "Allen & Heath ZED-R16" which is my interface. Following my recent DAW build/upgrade though and subsequent fresh install it now shows the Allen & Heath not the Roland. I think the only thing that is different would have been install order. I installed the ZED before everything this time whereas that would have been installed after the Roland on my old DAW because that was a mixer upgrade from my old Alesis Multimix that happened after the Sonic Cell install.
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Outlandish Music
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/18 15:02:25
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Thanks guys#Just disabled all but for the M192.
Heres what I tried, using superior I have a snare on the on the beat.
I play my guitar one note on each beat as I hear it.
When I play back it is always infront of the beat, If I nudge it needs about 10ms to pull into line
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godino
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/19 03:59:44
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When I play back it is always infront of the beat, If I nudge it needs about 10ms to pull into line
Yes I've been having the same problem for a long time never found out a solution other that "crap timing" on my behalf The only thing I could come up with - after numerous trials and tests is that if you are listening through your daw's monitors and your guitar note syncs perfectly with the drum beat because there is a slight delay on hearing your guitar note(through the speakers) after you pluck the string to get the 2 notes to conicide perfectly - you may subconciously pluck 'slightly early' - after all you are not miles out Its a just a theory
post edited by godino - 2011/12/19 04:53:07
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/19 04:47:50
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Yes I've been having the same problem for a long time
never found out a solution other that "crap timing" on my behalf
The only thing I could come up with - after numerous trials and tests is that
if you are listening through your daw's monitors and your guitar note syncs perfectly with the drum beat
because there is a slight delay on hearing your guitar note(through the speakers) after you pluck the string
to get the 2 notes to conicide perfectly - you may subconciouly pluck 'slightly early'
- after all you are not miles out
Its a just a theory
That's exactly what the manual offset box is for in Preferences->Audio->Sync & Caching. Enter the required offset into that and it gets added to the reported latency figure. No need to try and adjust your timing. Let Sonar do the work.
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Outlandish Music
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/19 05:02:13
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 Hi FBB I was playing with the off set last night and could not get any usable result. Example. I recorded a guitar note along to the snare on the beat over a coupel of bars. looking at the track view I can see that the guitar is out of time, as well as hear it. If I nudge the track 10ms, it lines up ok. I set the time to sampels, and noted down the drum and guitar positions, The difference is what I assume I need to enter into the manual offset? Also as the guitar is behind the drum, do I enter this as +xyz or -xyz. What ever I tried seems to make little difference. Must be missing the obvious
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godino
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/19 07:29:07
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I'm confused
you mentioned originally that the guitar was infront of the beat
now you say its behind the beat
Anyway
if you enter a positive figure into the latency offset (latency box ticked)the value is added to the computed value
and the wave is shunted to the left eg 500(your value) + 1044(reported latency) - the wave moved to the left by 1544 samples
if you enter a negative value eg -500 this value is again added to the reported latency
so in this example -500 +1044 - the wave moved to the left 544 samples
gordo Sonar Platinum - intel I7 7700K - Windows 10 home 64 bit - focusrite 214i - Roland Guitar Synth GR55 - Maschine Mk3 - Oxygen8 keyboard - Guitars basses etc
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Outlandish Music
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/19 08:17:56
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Sorry godino, the guitar note sounds just infront of the drum beat, so too early. So I need to take teh sample figure for the drum beat less the guitar which should give me the difference to be added to the reported latency
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godino
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/19 08:52:10
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thats right
the value for the offset in your senario should be a negative number
but keep it in perspective
sitting 2/3 metres away from you monitors will probably give you a greater
discrepancy than you have now.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/19 08:59:31
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I would always record either a MIDI note from an external device or re-route an existing audio track out an re-record that. Then use that to zoom in and see what the offset is, if any. Using a played in note is always open to the human mis-timed element. The difference is what I assume I need to enter into the manual offset?
Also as the guitar is behind the drum, do I enter this as +xyz or -xyz. What ever I tried seems to make little difference
Yes this is then automatically added or taken away from the reported latency figure.
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brundlefly
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/19 10:23:56
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Use the free CEntrance latency tester to measure the actual round-trip latency. Then the Manual Offset in samples is precisely Centrance RT - SONAR Reported RT. In most cases it should be only a fraction of a millisecond. Mine's 4 samples. http://centrance.com/downloads/ltu/
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/19 11:19:18
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brundlefly
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/19 11:30:54
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jm24
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/19 11:52:01
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The descriptions suggest to me you guys are hearing the new signals through Sonar's input monitoring, hence the delay.
You should be listening to the new signal in real time, routing the input directly to the output in the audio interface, before it gets to the conversion stage.
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brundlefly
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/19 12:00:18
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The descriptions suggest to me you guys are hearing the new signals through Sonar's input monitoring, hence the delay. Post 1, line 1: "I monitor my guitar thru a mixer so i can have a higher latency setting on my souncard"
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godino
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Re:Latency - still dont quite get it!
2011/12/19 15:20:38
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to be fair to jm24
until recently i did monitor through sonar
which could have been causing me a problem
gordo Sonar Platinum - intel I7 7700K - Windows 10 home 64 bit - focusrite 214i - Roland Guitar Synth GR55 - Maschine Mk3 - Oxygen8 keyboard - Guitars basses etc
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