sluggo
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Interesting questions about Project5
edit: if you read this post, please to read the entire thread including my post on Oct.18 Alrighty then, I've pretty much gone through all of the regular channels without much progress. Here's the deal. All of my P5 songs were corrupted last month, seemingly overnight. I started up P5 one evening and was instantly hit with the "corrupted file" error with the autoload. All of my songs since buying P5 were suddenly corrupt. I guess P5 had been saving corrupt files for quite a while and finally the program decided not to load them anymore. I contacted tech support and we exchanged a few emails and corrupted songs. I was told the songs were not recoverable. The last email I sent them was several weeks ago, asking if they had any other possible solutions to my problem and I haven't heard anything since. I then emailed customer service and politely asked for a response to my situation. I specifically asked them to respond to my email to let me know that they are working on the problem. I never heard back. I then phoned customer support. The person on the phone conferred with someone else and then told me they are still working on a response. I think that was maybe two weeks ago. Hey, I'm an easy-going guy but at some point someone from Cakewalk needs to step up and enlighten me as to what the heck they are doing about this. Losing all my songs overnight is not a trivial matter and in the very least deserves some dialogue. So the interesting questions are: 1) for present and future users of Project5, what is the state of the corrupted song error? This should be a concern to all users I think. 2) for those that have lost a song or numerous songs due to corrupted files, what does Cakewalk have to say? sluggo
< Message edited by sluggo -- 10/18/2004 11:02:12 PM >
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rabeach
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 03:16:40
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sluggo this is freakish for all your songs to be corrupted over night. all of the corruption i'm aware of has been caused by a synth and once the synth was removed from the pc the file was able to be opened. if you had all the files open at the same time (not a possibility i know) i would guess that your power quality was suspect. maybe a memory failure could be the cause. but all the files saved from one application are seldom stored in the same sector on a hard drive and defective ram would eventually cause problems with other applications and tasks on your pc. if you opened all your files on the day they became corrupted your hardware or power quality is the likely culprit in my opinion. or if you added that new special effect to all you projects the day they became corrupted then that would be the culprit. this is a nightmare for you but statistically an anomaly until it happens to someone else. wish i could be more help. p5 specialized virus there just doesn't seem to be a good answer and it is like looking for a needle in a haystack.
< Message edited by rabeach -- 10/8/2004 4:49:35 AM >
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Andy C
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 06:10:00
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I guess P5 had been saving corrupt files for quite a while and finally the program decided not to load them anymore. Sluggo, I feel for you, I've had this happen with one or two project as well, but not all ! It makes me wonder if it's not the files at all that have become corrupt but the installation of P5 or even a bad synth has overwrittne something in the registry it shouldn't have. Now rather than suggest you install P5 on a blank new PC, how about uploading one of the smaller bad files to Project5.com so others here can download it and try and open it ? Andy
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techead
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 06:14:24
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ORIGINAL: Andy C
Now rather than suggest you install P5 on a blank new PC, how about uploading one of the smaller bad files to Project5.com so others here can download it and try and open it ?
That's an interesting idea, Andy, but what happens when we attempt to open a project (supposing it isn't really corrupted) but we don't have all the matching instruments in our own P5 setup?
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Andy C
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 06:17:37
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but what happens when we attempt to open a project (supposing it isn't really corrupted) but we don't have all the matching instruments in our own P5 setup? P5 just opens the project anyway and tells you the plugin is missing. What I'm hoping is someone can open the project, delete the offending instrument, save it and upload a working version. In the very least we may get more of an idea of whats causing this problem. Andy
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Digital Aura
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 09:45:18
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GREAT IDEA!!
I volunteer ANDYC to open it!
[sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif]
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Andy C
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 09:48:11
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ORIGINAL: Digital Aura
I volunteer ANDYC to open it!
No problem, I've got a machine in Quarantine all ready to go.... Andy
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sluggo
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 11:27:54
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Thanks for the offer Andy.
Cakewalk has tried to open the files and they told me they were unrecoverable.
I'm sure this doesn't have anything to do with bad sectors, I keep my p5 songs amongst other format songs (for example, Live) which are fine.
One of the first things I did was re-installed P5 and remove (and then adding again) some vsti. P5 is working fine right now but I certainly don't trust it. Of course reinstalling P5 and plugins didn't recover my files.
It's not like this is a complete tragedy, I'm not a professional songwriter nor do I have any great works of art. I don't want to exagerrate and make it sound worse than it is. It's a hobby that I've put a lot of time into and I'm disappointed that my songs are gone. This is my last avenue of contacting Cakewalk and I'll probably leave it at this. I'm not one for repeated ****ing or complaining. However, I will most likely attempt to steer potential buyers of P5 away from this product. When I research new products before I buy, I always appreciate valuable input that can help my purchase decision: I would like to return this favour to people. It's a shame, Project5 is otherwise a great product and value imo.
s.
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mike85021
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 12:30:04
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ORIGINAL: sluggo
Thanks for the offer Andy.
Cakewalk has tried to open the files and they told me they were unrecoverable.
I'm sure this doesn't have anything to do with bad sectors, I keep my p5 songs amongst other format songs (for example, Live) which are fine.
One of the first things I did was re-installed P5 and remove (and then adding again) some vsti. P5 is working fine right now but I certainly don't trust it. Of course reinstalling P5 and plugins didn't recover my files.
It's not like this is a complete tragedy, I'm not a professional songwriter nor do I have any great works of art. I don't want to exagerrate and make it sound worse than it is. It's a hobby that I've put a lot of time into and I'm disappointed that my songs are gone. This is my last avenue of contacting Cakewalk and I'll probably leave it at this. I'm not one for repeated ****ing or complaining. However, I will most likely attempt to steer potential buyers of P5 away from this product. When I research new products before I buy, I always appreciate valuable input that can help my purchase decision: I would like to return this favour to people. It's a shame, Project5 is otherwise a great product and value imo.
s.
I jumped on the P5 bandwagon as soon as it became available. I have one of the first several hundred serial numbers, and paid a lot more than the current discounted or upgrade bundle price. I was a P5 enthusiast, and still think this could be the crème de crème music software in its niche. However, Cake’s lack of responsiveness to, and resolution of, corruption issues like this is unconscionable. When things like this happen, confidence is lost, as well as passion for the product. It reflects badly on Cake as well. The longer Cake remains silent on issues such as this, the more convinced I am that they intended for P5 to be a step-up toy for Sonar, and have no real intention of developing it further. If that is indeed the case, Cake is shooting itself in the collective foot.
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rabeach
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 12:37:09
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i would be interested in knowing how many songs you lost and a time line of events that lead to the corruption. i.e. did you save one song and when you tried to open it you found it corrupt and then went through and methodically open all the rest finding each one corrupt etc. have you run a memtester program on your ram. do you use a ups. do you live in a high lightening strike area such as west florida. did you send all the songs to cake tech support or one or two. i realize you are frustrated and have probably lost all hope in p5 and cake may not have been able to help but there is no such thing as an unrecoverable file just one that is cost prohibitive to decode and recover. we all have a vested interest here to see this resolved. is there any correlation between the songs such as did you use groove player in every song or some other instrument in all your songs.
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rabeach
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 12:43:38
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cake the files can be opened in a text editor so if one were to have the spec on your encryption methodology and one were a programmer one could certainly recover the midi data and much of the file. what gives. :-) and if one actually wrote the c or assembly code one could certainly find the point at which the load failure occurs. did you out source the creation of this application. :-)
< Message edited by rabeach -- 10/8/2004 12:54:09 PM >
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sluggo
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 13:16:55
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ORIGINAL: rabeach
i would be interested in knowing how many songs you lost and a time line of events that lead to the corruption. i.e. did you save one song and when you tried to open it you found it corrupt and then went through and methodically open all the rest finding each one corrupt etc. have you run a memtester program on your ram. do you use a ups. do you live in a high lightening strike area such as west florida. did you send all the songs to cake tech support or one or two. i realize you are frustrated and have probably lost all hope in p5 and cake may not have been able to help but there is no such thing as an unrecoverable file just one that is cost prohibitive to decode and recover. we all have a vested interest here to see this resolved. is there any correlation between the songs such as did you use groove player in every song or some other instrument in all your songs.
I don't know, I probably have about 20 songs. I have some backups from June that will still open. All my files from July forward are corrupt. I noticed the problem when one evening I booted my pc, started P5 and got a corrupt file error. The autoload was corrupt, and I hadn't modified it for a couple of months. I contacted Cakewalk and they said to reinstall P5. I did, and I was able to start Project5. But at this point all of my songs were corrupt. This has nothing to do with power, ram, harddrives, etc. Everything else on my computer is fine. I'm sure the files are intact from when they were last saved, it's just that P5 saved the file as being corrupt. My plugins are all of professional quality and are used everyday by people in Sonar, Cubase, Live, etc. They are not corrupt (I still use them on Live) and they are not flakey. Grooveplayer is not used in all the songs that are corrupt. If memory serves correct, Cakewalk has all this information and have not asked for any more help from me.
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Andy C
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 13:27:09
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I don't know, I probably have about 20 songs. I have some backups from June that will still open. All my files from July forward are corrupt. I noticed the problem when one evening I booted my pc, started P5 and got a corrupt file error. The autoload was corrupt, and I hadn't modified it for a couple of months. I contacted Cakewalk and they said to reinstall P5. I did, and I was able to start Project5. But at this point all of my songs were corrupt. Now you see, this I don't understand. I've had a file "go bad" on me, but going back a couple of versions I've managed to get it back to work. I've never had a bunch of files all go bad at the same time, I just can't see how it can happen. It's a total mystery to me especially if you re-installed P5. One extemely possibilty springs to mind. Have you installed any microsoft service packs or hotfixes in the interim ? Andy
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rabeach
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 13:29:14
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can you explain to me what autoload is.
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Andy C
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 13:31:18
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ORIGINAL: rabeach
can you explain to me what autoload is.
It;s the inital project that opens when P5 is started. Actually to be more accurate I guess its the initial template. Andy
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jardim do mar
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 13:36:34
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they said to reinstall P5. I did, after you un-installed p5 did you delete all folders that pertain to p5? and did you go into the registry under hkey local and current user and delete all folders that pertain to p5 and under hkey classes root in the registry under mfx softsynths did you delete any reg, numbers that contain info that is no longer being used ,,for ex,, ds864, psyn,, groove player? also.. do you have more than one audio device installed on your rig? ,,say ,,m-audio, tascam.. edirol audigy , etc,, I agree with Andy,,,,,,,
marcella And Remember,,,,One thing at a Time.....
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rabeach
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 13:39:16
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ORIGINAL: sluggo
ORIGINAL: rabeach
i would be interested in knowing how many songs you lost and a time line of events that lead to the corruption. i.e. did you save one song and when you tried to open it you found it corrupt and then went through and methodically open all the rest finding each one corrupt etc. have you run a memtester program on your ram. do you use a ups. do you live in a high lightening strike area such as west florida. did you send all the songs to cake tech support or one or two. i realize you are frustrated and have probably lost all hope in p5 and cake may not have been able to help but there is no such thing as an unrecoverable file just one that is cost prohibitive to decode and recover. we all have a vested interest here to see this resolved. is there any correlation between the songs such as did you use groove player in every song or some other instrument in all your songs.
I don't know, I probably have about 20 songs. I have some backups from June that will still open. All my files from July forward are corrupt. I noticed the problem when one evening I booted my pc, started P5 and got a corrupt file error. The autoload was corrupt, and I hadn't modified it for a couple of months. I contacted Cakewalk and they said to reinstall P5. I did, and I was able to start Project5. But at this point all of my songs were corrupt. This has nothing to do with power, ram, harddrives, etc. Everything else on my computer is fine. I'm sure the files are intact from when they were last saved, it's just that P5 saved the file as being corrupt. My plugins are all of professional quality and are used everyday by people in Sonar, Cubase, Live, etc. They are not corrupt (I still use them on Live) and they are not flakey. Grooveplayer is not used in all the songs that are corrupt. If memory serves correct, Cakewalk has all this information and have not asked for any more help from me.
the reason i keep asking about your power is because utilities have a very broad spec for providing your house with a deviation of nominal voltage without a ups low voltage and high voltage can cause many related problems when writing files to a hard drive. if you do not use a ups you have no control over maintaining a nominal voltage to your pc. since all you file corruption would appear to have happened all at once this would seem to possibly be a source of the corruption. applications generally don't control writing to hard drives they are assisted and at the mercy of the operating system. with fluctuating voltages files can often become corrupt. since you have no other anomallies in other applications assuming you used some of them the last time before the day of corruption this may not be the cause. leave no stone unturned is my motto when trying to find the culprit of anomalies.
< Message edited by rabeach -- 10/8/2004 1:47:55 PM >
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rabeach
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 13:43:33
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ORIGINAL: Andy C
It;s the inital project that opens when P5 is started. Actually to be more accurate I guess its the initial template.
Andy
thanks Andy. just get deeper and deeper. the template i will have to think about this one.
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rabeach
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 13:45:11
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jardim do mar
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 13:50:04
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leave no stone unturned is my motto when trying to find the culprit of anomalies. well said.. the problem is there are so many configurations and settings that differentiate between users,,,,,,,,,,,
marcella And Remember,,,,One thing at a Time.....
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mike85021
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 15:28:19
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ORIGINAL: sluggo
... I noticed the problem when one evening I booted my pc, started P5 and got a corrupt file error. The autoload was corrupt, and I hadn't modified it for a couple of months.
...
Sluggo, I don't know if you already tried this or not, but for what it's worth... if you didn't actually delete the P5 folder when you uninstalled and reinstalled, your autoload template may not have been replaced, and it might be corrupt. There was an issue early on which could be corrected by manually deleting the template and having P5 replace it with a fresh one. I can’t remember if it was a corruption problem or what.
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rabeach
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 16:09:40
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ORIGINAL: sluggo
I don't know, I probably have about 20 songs. I have some backups from June that will still open. All my files from July forward are corrupt. I noticed the problem when one evening I booted my pc, started P5 and got a corrupt file error. The autoload was corrupt, and I hadn't modified it for a couple of months. .......
i believe the template is a key issue here. p5 does not save the template unless you use the drop down save as template. therefore it is highly unlikely p5 caused the template to be corrupt.
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Digital Aura
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 17:40:02
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I agree with Mikeys earlier post... (WOW...MIKEY'S BACK!).. Cake better start putting some commitment back into the service end of things here. Its terrible that they have left this corruption issue for so long without even checking in to say..."here's whats up." Fortunately I've never had corrupted files that couldn't be opened. But I get the occassional "glitch-that-renders-automations-useless" thing happening. 
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rabeach
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 17:52:50
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ORIGINAL: Digital Aura
I agree with Mikeys earlier post... (WOW...MIKEY'S BACK!)..
Cake better start putting some commitment back into the service end of things here. Its terrible that they have left this corruption issue for so long without even checking in to say..."here's whats up."
Fortunately I've never had corrupted files that couldn't be opened. But I get the occassional "glitch-that-renders-automations-useless" thing happening.
Digital Aura don't get me wrong i agree just not sure sluggo's problem is a p5 issue. as large as the assembly code that is p5 must be i myself could have gone through the code by now and found the problem with a debugger and a few corrupted files and come to some understanding as to what the problem might be.
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rabeach
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 17:57:22
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ORIGINAL: Digital Aura
I agree with Mikeys earlier post... (WOW...MIKEY'S BACK!)..
Cake better start putting some commitment back into the service end of things here. Its terrible that they have left this corruption issue for so long without even checking in to say..."here's whats up."
Fortunately I've never had corrupted files that couldn't be opened. But I get the occassional "glitch-that-renders-automations-useless" thing happening.
please elaborate on the automation issue. i have not had a problem with this yet.
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sluggo
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 17:59:57
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I have no explanations for how this has happened. Why did the template become corrupt when I hadn't changed it? I haven't a clue. Without being a programmer, the only logical explanation to me is that Project5 was saving "corrupt" files for a period of time. During this time, Project5 was still able to open and play these files back. Then something changed to Project5 and it could no longer open the files.
As for editing the registry, removing folders, etc. Yes, I did that. And P5 seems to be working okay now. But the point is that all my songs are corrupt, none of them will open (except a few older backups from a cd). I emailed two of them to Cakewalk and they said they cannot be recovered. The problem is not what I've done since the corrupted files, it's that it happened in the first place. The fact is that there is a corrupt file bug with Project5, this is undisputable.
I can accept bugs, even if they are bad ones. I cannot accept being left in the dark on the current situation. Given that all of my work has been corrupted, it would be foolish for me to continue using P5. Therefore it is reasonable to say that I have a $270 piece of useless software sitting on my desk with no actual reason to believe that I'll be able to use it again.
rabeach, I'll send you a small file when I get home tonight or on the weekend.
However, I would like to point out that my intent for this post was not about tech support, it is about customer service. I appreciate everyone's ideas and suggestions, but I don't think we are going to solve the corrupt file problem here.
So I wish everyone the best in music making, make sure you have some fun with P5! But be carefull, and potential new users should be wary.
thanks again
sluggo
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Digital Aura
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 18:53:01
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The problem stems from a glitch using certain FX. Sometime using the "ECHO" effect causes automations to cancel out. Sometimes changing the BPM of the song on a subsequent save will cause the automations to stop working on any added elements while the saved stuff works fine. Weird stuff. But haven't had the problems sluggo or mikey have mentioned with groove player. 
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rabeach
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 20:10:30
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ORIGINAL: Digital Aura
The problem stems from a glitch using certain FX. Sometime using the "ECHO" effect causes automations to cancel out.
Sometimes changing the BPM of the song on a subsequent save will cause the automations to stop working on any added elements while the saved stuff works fine.
Weird stuff. But haven't had the problems sluggo or mikey have mentioned with groove player.
automation you have recorded in tracker or drawn in p-seq? sounds like a bad save routine, comparative routine, or some dead end programming routines. reminded me though that i have seen the meter stop working many times using various effect plugs.
< Message edited by rabeach -- 10/8/2004 8:21:13 PM >
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rabeach
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/08 20:13:47
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ORIGINAL: sluggo
I have no explanations for how this has happened. Why did the template become corrupt when I hadn't changed it? I haven't a clue. Without being a programmer, the only logical explanation to me is that Project5 was saving "corrupt" files for a period of time. During this time, Project5 was still able to open and play these files back. Then something changed to Project5 and it could no longer open the files.
As for editing the registry, removing folders, etc. Yes, I did that. And P5 seems to be working okay now. But the point is that all my songs are corrupt, none of them will open (except a few older backups from a cd). I emailed two of them to Cakewalk and they said they cannot be recovered. The problem is not what I've done since the corrupted files, it's that it happened in the first place. The fact is that there is a corrupt file bug with Project5, this is undisputable.
I can accept bugs, even if they are bad ones. I cannot accept being left in the dark on the current situation. Given that all of my work has been corrupted, it would be foolish for me to continue using P5. Therefore it is reasonable to say that I have a $270 piece of useless software sitting on my desk with no actual reason to believe that I'll be able to use it again.
rabeach, I'll send you a small file when I get home tonight or on the weekend.
However, I would like to point out that my intent for this post was not about tech support, it is about customer service. I appreciate everyone's ideas and suggestions, but I don't think we are going to solve the corrupt file problem here.
So I wish everyone the best in music making, make sure you have some fun with P5! But be carefull, and potential new users should be wary.
thanks again
sluggo
sluggo i understand your position i do believe we need to push the envelope though in order to get to the intent of your post, customer service from cakewalk. many of us here on the cake forums are programmers, engineers, consultants and hold day jobs developing hardware and software. i will run a comparative analysis of your file with the 4 i have of my own. this may lead no where but i think in the very least it will draw cakes attention. your situation is a first based on the quantity and nature of the corruption. in my case all of mine were related to groove player and sampletank and were recoverable and only 4 out of several hundred project files. this coupled with the fact that p5 is a newborn application it is an acceptable nuisance to me. i keep a running working backup of all my files. your situation sheds a new light on this issue though and i don't think we as a forum should let it just be. appreciate your post and the time you have taken to respond.
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Nick Haddad [Cakewalk] 
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- Location: Boston, MA
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RE: Interesting questions about Project5
2004/10/11 11:40:45
(permalink)
Sluggo, Sorry for not replying earlier, had my head down in code for awhile :). I'm sorry that your files are getting corrupt. Please send a couple of the smaller ones to me (nicholashaddad@cakewalk.com) and I'll see if I can track down the problem. It could be one of several things, a particular synth or plugin, or the dreaded grooveplayer bug (which we are still trying to reproduce consistently  ). Anyways, send me some files and I'll check them out.
< Message edited by Nick Haddad [Cakewalk] -- 10/11/2004 11:53:59 AM >
Nick Haddad Software Engineer Cakewalk
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