Truckermusic
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Chregg
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 16:17:12
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create a buss put a delay on it, send the vocal to it, get the delay sound you want, put a compressor on after the delay on the buss and send the vox to the sidechain of that compressor, might even use that technique my self, cheers 4 the heads up
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John
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 16:18:27
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Try using automation on the delay. Without looking at the entire vid thats how I would approach it.
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Guitarpima
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 16:20:32
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I would not use sidechaining to do what he's doing. You can easily creat an envelope to controle the volume of the delay either with the send level or the delay bus's output level. I would create the envelope on the send level.
Personally, I have not found any use for sidechaining. Though I don't record anyone but myself and if I find a problem, I just re-record it. I think sidechaining is just a holdover from the days of tape and people don't know how to let go of it.
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Truckermusic
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 16:21:39
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Chregg
create a buss put a delay on it, send the vocal to it, get the delay sound you want, put a compressor on after the delay on the buss and send the vox to the sidechain of that compressor, might even use that technique my self, cheers 4 the heads up
Chregg Thanks I will try this tonite! Let you know how it turns out. Cause I really do like this technique. Clifford
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Truckermusic
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 16:24:23
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Guitarpima
I would not use sidechaining to do what he's doing. You can easily creat an envelope to controle the volume of the delay either with the send level or the delay bus's output level. I would create the envelope on the send level.
Personally, I have not found any use for sidechaining. Though I don't record anyone but myself and if I find a problem, I just re-record it. I think sidechaining is just a holdover from the days of tape and people don't know how to let go of it.
guitar Pima Ok...but I thought that was the whole point of it....to use side chaining......Me on the other hand am brand new to it so for me it may just open a few new doors. but I do thank you for your advise. I will try it and see what happens! Clifford
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Truckermusic
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 16:26:43
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John
Try using automation on the delay. Without looking at the entire vid thats how I would approach it.
John thank you sir for the advice. But I would think that automation would be a lot more work to get right vs setting up the side chain correctly and working with it...But then maybe my inexperience is showing and I do not know it.... but I do understand that this would be one solution....so thank you sir. Clifford
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Chregg
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 16:27:34
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i use sidechaining all the time, like to try and get creative with it
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John
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 16:30:12
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One thing to keep in mind, often a technique used in one DAW is unnecessary in another. I don't know how well PT uses automation. In Sonar nearly anything can be automated. There is a use for side chaining. However, I try to be simple in how I go about solving a problem.
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Truckermusic
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 16:33:54
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John
One thing to keep in mind, often a technique used in one DAW is unnecessary in another. I don't know how well PT uses automation. In Sonar nearly anything can be automated. There is a use for side chaining. However, I try to be simple in how I go about solving a problem.
John I totally 100% agree with you. automation just takes me time ...... that's all......so I may just be looking at this incorrectly! but I do agree with you.
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Truckermusic
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 16:39:41
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Chregg
create a buss put a delay on it, send the vocal to it, get the delay sound you want, put a compressor on after the delay on the buss and send the vox to the sidechain of that compressor, might even use that technique my self, cheers 4 the heads up
So I have now read this post three times and let me see if I understand ... Creat a buss and put a delay in the FX Bin create a send of the vocal track which will be directed to the input of the side chain of the delay insert a compressor (in the same buss as the delay is in and after the delay) create a 2nd send from the vox track and send it to the input of the side chain of the compressor which is in the same buss as the delay. If this is correct then the compressor is not acting on the delay as I would like it to be. it is acting on the vox which is incorrect. (If I am understanding correctly) Clifford
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Jeff Evans
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 16:55:11
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Hi Clifford In your scenario you are sending the vocal track to the side chain of the delay. That is incorrect. The delay does not get any side chain input from anything. Just leave it as normal. 1 Create a buss and insert a delay on that buss 2 Create a send on the vocal track and send it to the INPUT of the delay buss which you now have set up. (Note your vocal is also going direct to the main outs) At this point you should have a normal vocal with delay on it. 3 Insert a compressor after the delay which is on the delay buss 4 Create a second vocal send and send it to the side chain input of that compressor. Now as per the video the output from the delay will be compressed (hence ducked down) every time a vocal phrase is present. Nice effect and great way to keep the delay out of the way of the vocals when the vocals are present. This effect could also be applied to reverb in a similar manner. You will need to tweak the compressor parameters a bit to get the desired effect. When you use a compressor as a side chain control the parameters of the compressor come into play big time. People expect the compressor to sidechain perfectly but often the parameters are not set right. Attack: The time it takes for the compressor to jump in and do its thing. Release is an important one here. If you want whatever is feeding the compressor to jump back quickly and get back into the picture the release determines this. Too slow and it will take too long to jump back. Ratio/Threshold: how far down do you want that compressor to compress. ie how quiet do you want the delay to be under the singing. People who don't use side chaining are missing out on a great effect. Another use is to duck bass notes (slightly) that fall right on top of kick notes. It adds punch and clarity. (In this scenario you have very fast attack and release times so the bass ducks down fast and returns really fast as soon as the kick has finished. Also you only need to duck the bass down about -2 or -3 dB) Sidechaining is also way faster than using automation. It would take a long time to automate the delay everytime the voice starts and stops. Set up a sidechain effect and set it correctly and you are done. Also there is something nice about an effect that is controlled directly by another signal. It sounds different to automation to me. Sidechaining can also be used to duck other instruments slightly whenever vocals are present adding clarity to the vocal sound and preventing other things from getting on top of the vocals too much.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2012/03/16 17:14:01
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Chregg
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 17:11:09
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like the post sais above (apart from the input of the delay lol) use a send on the vox track and send to the bus you have the delay on, and them the comp after the delay, with anutha send from the vox track going to the compressor's side chain
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Jonbouy
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 17:18:15
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Perfect explanation Jeff. Quite often sidechaining is a useful tool to get vocals to gently duck what is going on beneath. It's isn't any kind of holdover from the days of tape at all, it's a great mixing tool you can use in certain circumstance to suit the material. You hear it often used to off the Kick to 'pump' a beat in dance music which is likely the most obvious use you hear, but there are many ways to use the effect in a subtle way that would plain sound bad using manual envelopes. Voice overs with background music are often a good example of the clear use of side-chaining in action although in music production the technique isn't usually used that heavy handedly, sometimes it is though and sounds just right for the piece. Sidechaining a parallel eq'd sub-mix/mix with strategic cuts can also help preserve transients when you are putting that material through a bus compressor. It's a good and useful thing to get familiar with and the principle is fairly simple. The difficult bit is using the technique effectively and choosing the circumstances of where to use it to best effect rather than the technicalities of setting it up. Jeff has explained that bit nicely. The three things you need to consider when sidechaining in general is the part you want affected, the part you want to give prominence too and the signal providing the 'key' for the sidechaining processor to work.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/03/16 17:28:33
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Alegria
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 17:33:15
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bapu
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 17:48:45
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Alegria
+1 Nice thread!
And not even 20+ pages long deriding the merits of null testing of sidechaining vs. envelopes. 
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Lanceindastudio
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 17:58:56
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Instead of envelope editing a whole track, or, say multiple tracks even to cut delay during the vocla, I can use a compressor and side chain with the delay to quickly solve it? I am ALL ABOUT this technique  Lance
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timidi
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 18:03:52
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 18:22:16
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I think this technique, along with several other specialized ones is just as important part of your mixing armoury as, say, compression.
The key is (pun intended) to know WHEN to use it.
In my last dozen or so projects I think I've used it one one solitary occasion.
I knew this partucular song needed something somewhere, and suddenly remembered about side-chaining.
It's like reverb back in the 80's - use too much of it and it becomes predictable boring.
Used sparingly, it's just like the little bits of spice you add to a good chilli.
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Jonbouy
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 18:57:43
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Here's a quick example that you can all try at home... In an attempt to demystify for anyone not clear on it as this subject comes up quite often. Let's get ready to make some British '60's style 'beat boom' era drums. For the purposes of this excercise remember that many pop recordings of the era rarely had more than a couple of mics on the drums often a dynamic mic to capture the main drum sounds (including the kick!) and an overhead mic to bring out the cymbals and hi-hats and stuff the OH mic was often drowned out by the main drum mic with a characteristic slow recovery time resulting in a distinctive sound. Let's do it. Using your favourite drum-sampler of choice set-up your multi-outs so everything except the hats and OH's get routed to a single bus called drums. Route the OH's and Hats to another bus called OH and the OH bus put a comp in as an insert. I'm using a Sonitus here so set it to say, ratio 9:1, knee 4 db, Vintage, make up Gain 6.0 db, make sure TCR is on because we're after that old auto vibe, Limiter doesn't matter. Attack and releas time do though so start between 1 to 3 ms and a release time of 350 that should do ya. From the drum bus create a send to go to the compressors side input. Find a nice midi pattern that uses some characteristic of the period swishy crash cymbals or rides played on the edge rather than pingy ones. Loop that and mix up the kit all lovely, try and get as good a sound as possible just using the Room and OH mics to start out give the OH bus a good boost at 2k and roll off beneath 800 hz the 'Drum' bus just roll off above 4k should work, just bring the close mics (remember mostly they didn't have the luxury) in to re-inforce the drum sounds and you're golden. From here pull the Threshold on the compressor down so it really starts to bite! Et. Viola. The thing to remember is that the 'key' going into the side chain doesn't have to be the actual output signal you hear so in order to drive the compressor instead of using a straight send as we are here from the actual drum bus you could cook up a stem using the same pattern but with mad sounding drums just to drive the compressor crazy as long as you only use it for that purpose nobody will be any the wiser. And of course you can use it on a vocal to duck some backing which otherwise sounds great when the vocals are not there but treads on the vocal when it is, a kick to stop it being swamped by a bass etc, etc. Unwanted frequency cuts and panning etc are all important to get a mix to fit together but sometimes those things alone can make things sound dull, sterile and flat. Sidechaining along with all the other good practice you employ can make your mixes live and breathe by making things happen in a dynamically dependent way. If anyone is unsure of the mumbo jumbo that comes up surrounding the subject of side-chaining I promise you if you try out this quick and dirty example you'll get the idea and be able to take it from there.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/03/16 19:52:55
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Truckermusic
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 19:12:25
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Jeff Evans
Hi Clifford In your scenario you are sending the vocal track to the side chain of the delay. That is incorrect. The delay does not get any side chain input from anything. Just leave it as normal.
1 Create a buss and insert a delay on that buss
2 Create a send on the vocal track and send it to the INPUT of the delay buss which you now have set up.
(Note your vocal is also going direct to the main outs)
At this point you should have a normal vocal with delay on it.
3 Insert a compressor after the delay which is on the delay buss
4 Create a second vocal send and send it to the side chain input of that compressor.
Now as per the video the output from the delay will be compressed (hence ducked down) every time a vocal phrase is present.
Nice effect and great way to keep the delay out of the way of the vocals when the vocals are present. This effect could also be applied to reverb in a similar manner.
You will need to tweak the compressor parameters a bit to get the desired effect. When you use a compressor as a side chain control the parameters of the compressor come into play big time. People expect the compressor to sidechain perfectly but often the parameters are not set right.
Attack: The time it takes for the compressor to jump in and do its thing. Release is an important one here. If you want whatever is feeding the compressor to jump back quickly and get back into the picture the release determines this. Too slow and it will take too long to jump back. Ratio/Threshold: how far down do you want that compressor to compress. ie how quiet do you want the delay to be under the singing.
People who don't use side chaining are missing out on a great effect. Another use is to duck bass notes (slightly) that fall right on top of kick notes. It adds punch and clarity. (In this scenario you have very fast attack and release times so the bass ducks down fast and returns really fast as soon as the kick has finished. Also you only need to duck the bass down about -2 or -3 dB)
Sidechaining is also way faster than using automation. It would take a long time to automate the delay everytime the voice starts and stops. Set up a sidechain effect and set it correctly and you are done. Also there is something nice about an effect that is controlled directly by another signal. It sounds different to automation to me. Sidechaining can also be used to duck other instruments slightly whenever vocals are present adding clarity to the vocal sound and preventing other things from getting on top of the vocals too much.
Everyone Sorry I did not answer right away.....I was at work and the quitting bell rang.....needed to leave and get on home.... Jeff Thank you so much for that explination.....I understood it and it made a lot more sense....... Like I said , I just learnt how to use side chaining and I used it on my first priject last night to do what else?????? duck the bass from the kick!!!! I really like how smooth that is in the video and I really wanted to learn how to use it..... By the way... I love reading your tips when you answer others......you just make things so clear! Thank you Clifford
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Truckermusic
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 19:14:48
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Jonbouy
Perfect explanation Jeff.
Quite often sidechaining is a useful tool to get vocals to gently duck what is going on beneath. It's isn't any kind of holdover from the days of tape at all, it's a great mixing tool you can use in certain circumstance to suit the material.
You hear it often used to off the Kick to 'pump' a beat in dance music which is likely the most obvious use you hear, but there are many ways to use the effect in a subtle way that would plain sound bad using manual envelopes. Voice overs with background music are often a good example of the clear use of side-chaining in action although in music production the technique isn't usually used that heavy handedly, sometimes it is though and sounds just right for the piece.
Sidechaining a parallel eq'd sub-mix/mix with strategic cuts can also help preserve transients when you are putting that material through a bus compressor.
It's a good and useful thing to get familiar with and the principle is fairly simple. The difficult bit is using the technique effectively and choosing the circumstances of where to use it to best effect rather than the technicalities of setting it up. Jeff has explained that bit nicely.
The three things you need to consider when sidechaining in general is the part you want affected, the part you want to give prominence too and the signal providing the 'key' for the sidechaining processor to work.
Jonbouy +1 Jeff just has a way of ecplaining things that make it very clear......at least in my simple mind..... Thank you sir Clifford
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Truckermusic
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 19:16:37
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Alegria
+1 Nice thread!
Thank you.. it took a couple of days for me to want to post this question.....but I just ccould not let it go....it is too nice of a techinque not to sahre with others and find out how to make it happen. Clifford
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Truckermusic
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 19:18:06
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bapu
Alegria
+1 Nice thread!
And not even 20+ pages long deriding the merits of null testing of sidechaining vs. envelopes.
bapu yes...I've seen them things.....lets just keep this simple....easier for me to understand...... Clifford
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Truckermusic
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 19:20:30
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Lanceindastudio
Instead of envelope editing a whole track, or, say multiple tracks even to cut delay during the vocla, I can use a compressor and side chain with the delay to quickly solve it?
I am ALL ABOUT this technique
Lance
Lance That's what I'm talking about brother! it's all about the KISS Method (not to be confused with the band) Keep It Simple Stupid! that is for me!Lord knows I make more than enough work for myself Already! Clifford
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Truckermusic
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 19:21:33
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timidi
cool concept.
I agree Thank you......(as if it were mine!!!!! NOT) But I love it Clifford
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Truckermusic
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/16 21:46:46
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Jeff I tired your technique on a track this evening ..... and it worked the first time BEAUTIFULLY! You r da MAN! Thank you brother Clifford
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/17 03:26:35
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Great stuff from Jeff and the Buoy!
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guitarmikeh
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/17 05:27:40
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I use PT Air dynamic delay many times. It's great.
But here's another option that I'm not sure has been poted above. Unless I missed it.
Clip effects...
Cut/slice the vocal clip before and after the part you want to repeat/ add delay to.
Add preferred delay on that little clip. Season to tase. Easy peasy lemon squezy. No extra buss No extra compressor no side chain needed.
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strikinglyhandsome1
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Re:I would like to learn how to do this technique in X1 Expanded
2012/03/17 05:49:15
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Nice set of Tips and Vids here.
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