moffdnb
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My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
Hi all, So I hope this is helpful to anyone who was wondering the same thing as I used to until today. I finally had the chance to A/B my own test project on my own system with X1 vs Protools 10. As I'm still on XP so I installed and old IDE drive and fresh install of Win7 with just X1, a 30 day trial of PT 10 and wavelab 6 to compare them. Nothing else. I used a 9 track project of various drum, percs, bass, organ and vox loops all at original 100bpm (No Native time stretching used). All loops were sourced from various CDs. I choose loops that worked quite well together as I did not plan to do any mixing, tuning or processing using the VSTs of any DAW. The aim was simply to confirm for myself that there is no difference in sound quality between Sonar and Protools in their basic form. (Forget any VST plugs weather for PT, X1 or 3rd party for this test). So both projects used the exact same settings for each render. All rendered at 24bit 44khs stereo of 1 bar length. TEST: 1st up was the same loops in each project all at unity gain and summed through master as normal. 2nd As there was some clipping with the summed loops I dropped all faders to -6db 3rd I added a few more loops and panned them to the same settings (Using the same pan laws!) 4th Again I was still a tiny bit in the red so dropped to -10db 5th Added all the loops used. So for anyone interested you can download the 1 bar files here (12mb) and compare yourself. They are identical. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7...6/1barBounces24bit.rar There may be more experienced peeps out there who will complain about such a test but for my this is quite simple. Disregarding soundcards, 3rd party or native VST fx/VSTi's, or skill as an engineer what I needed for peace of mind was to hear for myself that these DAWs are the same in sound quality. I'm am very happy and somewhat relieved to know this for myself. I have read so many counter views on the subject I had to try it myself. So when I compare my productions with the big names, IT IS NOT Daw related!!. It is about resources, outboards, Mics, skill levels, soundcards, rooms or whatever else you can think of. Time to move on and keep improving me, myself and I ;> Best for now, Ste
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konradh
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 13:43:19
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The current issue of Sound on Sound has an article on a successful producer. In a sidebar he says he liked the sound of Sonar better—although admits he is not sure why—but now uses ProTools because it is more prevalent in larger facilities. He says he misses Sonar.
The same issue has a review of the latest ProTools which applauds its new audio features but says it is lacking in sequencing and arranging.
I agree that there is no difference in final audio quality: it is just a matter of which features make the most sense to any given producer/arranger/writer. I took a very close look at ProTools but use Sonar.
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dubdisciple
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 13:44:33
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I'm glad you have closure on this issue but unfortunately it is unlikely to go away, because people will always find ways to discount your results if they are simply determined to declare PT superior. The catch 22 with this sort of thing is that anyone who would take the time and objectively look at your results probably already knows that the sound differences likely lay more in resources. i even know PT users who admit as much but use PT because that is where the work is.
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Lanceindastudio
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 13:45:36
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You got it  SONAR is as pro as any other DAW in the world that has ever existed. As the seasoned people usually say, it is simply a matter of personal preference! Lance
Asus P8Z77-V LE PLUS Motherboard i7 3770k CPU 32 gigs RAM Presonus AudioBox iTwo Windows 10 64 bit, SONAR PLATINUM 64 bit Lots of plugins and softsynths and one shot samples, loops Gauge ECM-87, MCA SP-1, Alesis AM51 Presonus Eureka Mackie HR824's and matching subwoofer
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strangeboy
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 14:03:38
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Well, I think they got it right when they christened it "Pro Tools".
Gotta admit... that's a great name.
In the same way that Ferrari just sounds fast as hell, even though I'm a Porsche fan!
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moffdnb
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 14:31:28
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I'm almost expecting sm1 not to recognise my simple test and for the 1st time I can ignore their counter argument if so. I have it in front of me here.
Anyone can do such a test now so you dont have to take anyone's word for it. I read SOS article too. 100% sure there were other factors involved in his views.
Your choice of DAW should only focus on features/tools/work flow. End of!
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vintagevibe
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 16:05:09
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Lanceindastudio
You got it
SONAR is as pro as any other DAW in the world that has ever existed.
As the seasoned people usually say, it is simply a matter of personal preference!
Lance
Unless of course if you work with notation or video. Then it is far behind.
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Lanceindastudio
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 16:13:12
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Agree to disagree there vv
It has never been made for notation or video. It has some of that, but those have always just been extras like other DAWS.
Lance
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dubdisciple
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 16:29:03
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If you are using any DAW for video work you are going to struggle since none have any video editing ability. i work with video for a living and Sonar does exactly what i need it to do, namely play a proxy version that I can lay down audio to and export that audio to my proper video editing system.
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dubdisciple
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 16:36:58
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I'm curious what other DAWS supposedly do with video that is so much greater than Sonar
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vintagevibe
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 16:49:15
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Lanceindastudio
Agree to disagree there vv
It has never been made for notation or video. It has some of that, but those have always just been extras like other DAWS.
Lance
ProTools, Cubase, Logic and Digital Performer have the professional level of notation required to compose in a DAW. Sonar does not. Cakewalk has recognized and admitted this several times but has chosen to ignore it. As for video, since I currently don't use it, I'm going on the many complaints that you can find via search. The fact that Sonar notation is years behind the others mentioned is not debatable. The only valid debate is will or should Cakewalk address it. The people who don't use notation will say no. The people who use notation will say yes. Either way it is far inferior to the competition.
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dubdisciple
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 16:57:30
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vintagevibe
Lanceindastudio
Agree to disagree there vv
It has never been made for notation or video. It has some of that, but those have always just been extras like other DAWS.
Lance
ProTools, Cubase, Logic and Digital Performer have the professional level of notation required to compose in a DAW. Sonar does not. Cakewalk has recognized and admitted this several times but has chosen to ignore it. As for video, since I currently don't use it, I'm going on the many complaints that you can find via search. The fact that Sonar notation is years behind the others mentioned is not debatable. The only valid debate is will or should Cakewalk address it. The people who don't use notation will say no. The people who use notation will say yes. Either way it is far inferior to the competition.
Let me get this straight, you willfully chose to make a dig about a feature that you admit you have no actual experience with to know if it is lacking? I understand you have this chronic obsession to turn any topic into your personal beyotching session about staff view. i get it and sympathize, but the video thing is absurd. You will not find many actual video editors with that complaint because they know better.
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vintagevibe
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 17:14:53
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dubdisciple
Let me get this straight, you willfully chose to make a dig about a feature that you admit you have no actual experience with to know if it is lacking? I understand you have this chronic obsession to turn any topic into your personal beyotching session about staff view. i get it and sympathize, but the video thing is absurd. You will not find many actual video editors with that complaint because they know better.
I guess I hit a nerve. No need for personal attacks. I have heard many complaints about limit of 1 video track and limited file type import. That seems valid to me. Protools can handle up to 64 video tracks. Cubase has an Open GL video engine. Just a couple of good examples where Sonar is behind.
post edited by vintagevibe - 2012/04/18 17:24:14
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Lanceindastudio
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 17:22:57
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Bringing notation and video into a sound of the DAW mix comparison thread was pretty much a hijack.
Lance
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dubdisciple
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 17:23:49
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vintage. no nerve hit. It seems valid to you because you have absolutely no clue as to what you are talking about in that area. That is not a personal attack but a fact made obvious the more you post about the topic. You do realize that NO DAW offers more than one track of video because it would be pointless? Pro tools does not have it. Logic does not have it. Reason, Studio One, etc ..none of them have that feature because none of them are video editors. It's like complaining your car doesn't come with wings. As far as limited file type import, again par for the course. Even most dedicated video editing programs don't handle every single codec on the planet. Expecting your DAW to handle the bootleg movie codes that some high end video editing apps struggle with is an unreasonable expectation and is more of a compliant about DAWS in general than with Sonar.
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vintagevibe
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 17:27:08
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dubdisciple
vintage. no nerve hit. It seems valid to you because you have absolutely no clue as to what you are talking about in that area. That is not a personal attack but a fact made obvious the more you post about the topic. You do realize that NO DAW offers more than one track of video because it would be pointless? Pro tools does not have it. Logic does not have it. Reason, Studio One, etc ..none of them have that feature because none of them are video editors. It's like complaining your car doesn't come with wings. As far as limited file type import, again par for the course. Even most dedicated video editing programs don't handle every single codec on the planet. Expecting your DAW to handle the bootleg movie codes that some high end video editing apps struggle with is an unreasonable expectation and is more of a compliant about DAWS in general than with Sonar.
See the addition to my post above to see your error.
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dubdisciple
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 17:30:21
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i see you did some googling to change your post and i would gladly break down exactly how pro tools handles "64 tracks of video" is not what you think, but since you are determined to create problem where it does not exist i will simply follow my own advice to the OP and leave it alone
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guitarmikeh
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 17:39:29
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I would imagine anyone seriously working with video and sonar is probably using MTC or SMPTE to sync with a video source.
I harbor no ill will towards any man.
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Lanceindastudio
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 17:40:42
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As anyone seriously composing notation style would use something such as Sibelius.
Lance
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guitarmikeh
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 17:45:06
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I dont disagree with the above either
I harbor no ill will towards any man.
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guitarmikeh
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 17:46:25
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Bringing notation and video into a sound of the DAW mix comparison thread was pretty much a hijack. Lance yep, I kinda agree
I harbor no ill will towards any man.
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vintagevibe
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 18:40:15
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Lanceindastudio
As anyone seriously composing notation style would use something such as Sibelius.
Lance
I use Sibelius. It does not allow me do compose inside a DAW.
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Lanceindastudio
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 18:52:37
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Asus P8Z77-V LE PLUS Motherboard i7 3770k CPU 32 gigs RAM Presonus AudioBox iTwo Windows 10 64 bit, SONAR PLATINUM 64 bit Lots of plugins and softsynths and one shot samples, loops Gauge ECM-87, MCA SP-1, Alesis AM51 Presonus Eureka Mackie HR824's and matching subwoofer
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chilldanny
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 18:52:38
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Thanks moff, i like positive threads like this =)
* Windows10 (x64), Focusrite Safire Pro24, Sonar Platinum (x64) * MacOS High Sierra, Logic Pro X, Ableton Live 9 * Danny M
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sethmopod
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/18 22:39:50
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Composing in Sibelius or Finale is ridiculous. I do a lot of serious notation, and I use Finale extensively, but I could never compose in it. I do all of my composition on instruments and in Sonar becuase those notation programs are terrible sequencers. Sure Sonar has some notation and editing quirks, but is far superior to the notation programs for the flexibility needed to work out ideas. Once the composition is done, I export the MIDI file into Finale to produce professional-quality sheet music. The playback and sequencing in there suck, though.
I've never done video, but it sounds like the analogy of Sonar's video handling to an actual video editor might be similar. The different tools are good for what their good for and if you want quality on a complex project, you often need more than one tool in your bag.
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LpMike75
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/19 01:39:09
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I've scored many video's using Sonar, my main complaint being that 64 bit is very fussy regarding what type of video it will accept. You still get the upside down video that is easily cleared after hitting , start, stop, start etc a few times.
For some reason people like to bring up Sonar isnt a video editor whenever someone mentions video. Maybe I am missing a post ot two somewhere but I never see anyone actually write that they want to edit video in Sonar. I also have ProTools 10 and that seems to be more versitile as far as accepting different types of videos. I think that is one of the complaints.
Anyhow, if you get the free version of "Any Video Converter" you can change all your videos to WMV and they will play fine within Sonar. I also recommend buying the cheap version of Sony Vegas for chopping up your videos, importing/exporting in different formats then using Vegas to marry your sound with picture. Exporting sound with picture has gotten me varying degrees of accuracy from Sonar so I find using an outside program to do that is more reliable.
Sorry for adding to the hijack
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bladetragic
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/19 01:53:55
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konradh
The current issue of Sound on Sound has an article on a successful producer. In a sidebar he says he liked the sound of Sonar better—although admits he is not sure why—but now uses ProTools because it is more prevalent in larger facilities. He says he misses Sonar.
The same issue has a review of the latest ProTools which applauds its new audio features but says it is lacking in sequencing and arranging.
I agree that there is no difference in final audio quality: it is just a matter of which features make the most sense to any given producer/arranger/writer. I took a very close look at ProTools but use Sonar.
J.R. Rotem
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Anderton
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/19 03:14:32
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For me, video = Vegas, audio = Sonar. I do the video in Vegas, then import the rendered version into Sonar. I then compose to picture in Sonar. When it's done I render the audio snd import it into Vegas for the final production. Vegas is very capable when it comes to audio, and would suffice for most people, but it doesn't attain Sonar's flexibility.
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Dave Allison
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/19 03:39:44
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@dubdisciple >I'm curious what other DAWS supposedly do with video that is so much greater than Sonar .. Let's be fair, Sonar wasn't designed for this work, but since you asked.. The job I'm working on right now involves syncing up the pictures and sound from 4 cameras and about 20 G-Pros with the audio from 2 sound recordists, then mixing the soundtrack after the picture editor has finished the picture cut. Sonar lacks a number of features which are helpful for this, such as: Multiple video clips / tracks Move video clips in time-line Read audio time-code Import and Export AAF edit protocol Support for shared MXF media Support for field recorder BWF metadata Import EDL and change lists when the picture editor changes his mind.. I do this in Pro-Tools 9, and Avid Media Composer The only other DAW that is viable in this environment is Nuendo as far as I know. It would be great if I could work in Sonar, as Pro-Tools lacks some features that Sonar users take for granted, such as clip based FX bins, and faster than real-time bounce. I may even move to Sonar to mix, as I find PT9 quite frustrating having got used to those things, but Sonar is not a contender at this stage of the project.. Here's some preview footage from the project: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2LQIf9Ybk8&context=C4de9bbfADvjVQa1PpcFPU-s08kZeQdsN9jQ1o_9383arnibmylPM=
[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW27h7FEQdg&context=C4702f3cADvjVQa1PpcFPU-s08kZeQdulsoHM4zeXid0CFym8IfnY]http://www.youtube.com/wa...ulsoHM4zeXid0CFym8IfnY[/link]=
Gigabyte GA-X48-DS4, Windows 7 Pro 64 bit, Motu 24I/O Sonar 8.5 Producer, Pro-Tools 9, Avid Media Composer, Melodyne.
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bobguitkillerleft
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Re:My personal controversy is over : X1 Vs Protools on my own system TESTED!
2012/04/19 05:37:57
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moffdnb
Hi all,
So I hope this is helpful to anyone who was wondering the same thing as I used to until today. I finally had the chance to A/B my own test project on my own system with X1 vs Protools 10. As I'm still on XP so I installed and old IDE drive and fresh install of Win7 with just X1, a 30 day trial of PT 10 and wavelab 6 to compare them. Nothing else.
I used a 9 track project of various drum, percs, bass, organ and vox loops all at original 100bpm (No Native time stretching used). All loops were sourced from various CDs. I choose loops that worked quite well together as I did not plan to do any mixing, tuning or processing using the VSTs of any DAW. The aim was simply to confirm for myself that there is no difference in sound quality between Sonar and Protools in their basic form. (Forget any VST plugs weather for PT, X1 or 3rd party for this test).
So both projects used the exact same settings for each render. All rendered at 24bit 44khs stereo of 1 bar length.
TEST:
1st up was the same loops in each project all at unity gain and summed through master as normal.
2nd As there was some clipping with the summed loops I dropped all faders to -6db
3rd I added a few more loops and panned them to the same settings (Using the same pan laws!)
4th Again I was still a tiny bit in the red so dropped to -10db
5th Added all the loops used.
So for anyone interested you can download the 1 bar files here (12mb) and compare yourself. They are identical.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7...6/1barBounces24bit.rar
There may be more experienced peeps out there who will complain about such a test but for my this is quite simple. Disregarding soundcards, 3rd party or native VST fx/VSTi's, or skill as an engineer what I needed for peace of mind was to hear for myself that these DAWs are the same in sound quality.
I'm am very happy and somewhat relieved to know this for myself. I have read so many counter views on the subject I had to try it myself. So when I compare my productions with the big names, IT IS NOT Daw related!!. It is about resources, outboards, Mics, skill levels, soundcards, rooms or whatever else you can think of.
Time to move on and keep improving me, myself and I ;>
Best for now,
Ste
You did not mention,wether the test was 32bit or 64? Im guessing 32,as PT isn't yet 64bit. The reason Im intrigued,as 64bit Sonar X1d Ex.for me, is quicker[not amazingly,but noticable]and definitely more stable[definitely noticable!] I use 64bit X1 as much as possible,and it [bitbridge]is handling all my 32bit plugs perfectly,but I don't have any UAD cards or any waves plugs. Sincerely Bob
https://soundcloud.com/rks26https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hitmen Lenovo W540 Factoryrefurb SONAR PLATINUM,Ozone 7 N.I. KA6 Komplete 9 SSD4 Platinum Epi L/H LP Custom Headstock broken twice and fixed.Gibson L/H Les Paul 2010 Wine Red Studio stupid Right Hand Vol.Tone for Left Hand?LH84Ibanez RS135 gen.FloydRose JB Marshall 100w 2203 4x25w Celestion Green backs "You are what you is"-Frank Zappa "But I'm gonna wave my freak flag high"-Jimi Hendrix
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