Soft Synths Begone!

I have not had any luck with playback soft synths. I am not talking about subtractive synths like the Moog or Z3Ta which work fine.

I have a setup with a DAW for Sonar and a separate machine for soft synths. My soft synth machine has a latency of less that 3 mils. So far so good.

In the past, I tried Gigastudio. In particular, I wanted great piano and violins.

The gigapiano was good on the low notes and the high notes, but had a phase problem on the all important middle range. The violin samples I bought did not cut it.

I continued to use my Korg X2 for all sample playback needs. The piano (2 meg) was just plain better than the gigapiano. Everyone who heard it agreed. It cut though, had more presence, and was just more fulfilling. I never upgraded to gigastudio for XP, and just forgot about my giga licence.

I tried Sampletank but to me it was cheezy.

Next I bought Kontact 2. I never could get it to work right, but from what I could tell, the pianos and strings sounded poor. One of these days I should re-load it and spend a bunch of time to figure it out. I am sure that somewhere out there I could find some samples that would work for me if I spent enough time and money looking for them.

I tried Colossus. It comes on 8 DVDs. The pianos sound like they are recorded from about 30 feet away in a large hall. The reverb is part of the sample. It is weird to play a piano that sounds like it is 30 feet away. Colossus has a couple "brite" pianos that are close mic'ed but are thin sounding. In addition, the velocity curve did not match my controller so notes would be very loud when they shouldn't. The violins are VERY poor. The solo violins have a strange blowing sound like the breath from a flute. I played violin for 6 years and I never heard anything like this. The string sections have a long swell built into the sample. Good for long pads but useless to play melodies. String arrangements from pop songs often have very fast moving melodies. I cover songs that have string sections, and I find the strings on this product to be useless.

Finally, I popped for Dimension Pro. It is clearly better than Colossus, but still no home run. The pianos are usable but not great. The strings swell too slowly. The tenor sax sounds like a tenor sax, but no growl is available. Perhaps Dimension Pro's value is in other kinds of sounds than piano and strings.

All through this I have found my 10 year old Korg X2 to be superior for piano, strings, trumpet, organ, and sax. It has 8 megs of sample memory. I get the impression that Korg would spend huge amounts of time fine honing to get things to sound right, and that software playback manufactuers more or less just sample and go. Huge sample size is not enough.

So I just ordered a Korg Triton Extreme. I hope it sounds like the X2 with some refinements. There was really no way to try it out at guitar center. Whenever I went there some hip hop guy would be playing it.

Perhaps Korg will introduce a soft synth that is a clone of the triton. That would be nice.

Take heed to what i say, Check out Applied acoustics systems.They have a new version of lounge lizzard wich is for electric piano's,to "many" lounge lizzard is as good and playable as the real thing, but more flexible.The perfect sampler may not be found, but there are fully capable synths.Check out lounge lizzard 3 and String Studio demo's here- www.applied-acoustics.com

P.S. When you play these synths with your midi keyboard/controller pay attention to their expressive response.It really sounds living!

I get the impression that Korg would spend huge amounts of time fine honing to get things to sound right, and that software playback manufactuers more or less just sample and go. Huge sample size is not enough.

You have stumbled onto a real truth there, pharaoh. In fact, piano and orchestral instruments are probably the hardest for any synth to do. Frankly, I have yet to find a softsynth or a sample that can even touch my Oberheim MiniGrand piano module. I have SampleTank 2 and out of all the pianos on there, found only one that even gets into the ballpark. And even that one isn't quite as expressive.

For orchestral, it seems the only way to go is with a good, dedicated sample library like EWQLSO, or a package like Garritan Personal Orchestra. (I mention these only because you didn't. My apologies if you have already looked at these.)

For real-sounding intruments the physical modeling synths (like everything from Applied Acoustics) are superb. Also, Garritan has a solo Stradivari worth checking out. I'm also impressed with the demo mp3's over at synful.com for their Synful Orchestra.

Just some thoughts...

I'm a guitar/bass guy. I'm glad you guys posted this. I was using my old original Roland Sound Canvas the other day and I was reminded how well it would sit in a mix. I didn't think it could be so I switched to a soft synth and went through several till I ended up with (you guessed it) the TTS-1 synth.

Damn You!
I've just decided to sell off and go all soft synth.
Although I'm not very interested in piano sounds. I do love pads but if there is one thing I would want the best of... that would be acoustic guitar. I would like to blend it with natural guitar. Nylon, Steal, or anything. I've heard a few that sound nice but can't justify buying the whole package for ust that.
Did i mention I love Pads and atmospheric sounds.

Well...if you REALLY like pads and atmospheric sounds, get a copy of the Korg Legacy Collection Digital Edition which has a street price of $150 usd. It has a Wavestation SR and an M1 in it, and the M1 has all 19 cards included and now has 256 note polyphony!!!! The Wavestation is, in MHO, the most analogue sounding digital synth ever made and I love my Wavestation EX keyboard, but I'm going to get the KLC DE just to get the M1. I had one and loved everything about it except the 16 note polyphony which is why I eventually sold it.

Tom

ORIGINAL: juicerocks
one thing I would want the best of... that would be acoustic guitar

Applied Acoustics String Studio

I'd get it today but I'm invested in Tassman (their flagship product), and I'm holding out to see if they integrate any advancements from their side products into modules for T5. These physical models make you feel like there are real strings (and hammers and mallets) under your keys. Try playing one of their models and adjusting the damping while you play. That was enough to hook me.

Edit: ReFX Slayer 2, which is an electric guitar/amp physical modeler, also claims that with some adjustments to the body size parameters you can get a realistic acoustic sound out of it. I don't have this one yet, though I'm planning on getting it soon to try out. It's pretty cheap and also may be worth a try. And, if nothing else, you can get the electric stuff along with it.

pharoahknaughty, I'm surprised to hear that you don't like the pianos in Dimension Pro. I attended a Cakewalk clinic at Sam Ash a few months back, and the piano I heard demo-ed from Dimension Pro sounded pretty clean and detailed.

How do you rate the strings (orchestral) in Dimension Pro? AFAIK they should be a part of the Garritan Pocket Orchestra, and I know Garritan's other collections have gotten high marks.

As far as all those other sample sets... Gigastudio, Sampletank, Colossus... you must have a small fortune invested!

ORIGINAL: Tomcat
Korg Legacy Collection Digital Edition which

The Wavestation is cool (as is the M1). Is the emulation pretty good? (Actually, I'd hope for "netter", since now there is more resolution and bandwidth available for the samples.)

Also, any word on soft versions of the 01/w series?

For the price, the new HQ piano sets on the Wusik.com site sound real nice. I have one of them I used with Wusikstation 2 for this excerpt from a Bach piece: http://www.wusik.com/users/examigan/Bach%20486%20piano%20excerpt.mp3

I can't afford a lot of the products mentioned here, (maybe someday!?!) but I hunted around and thought these sounded pretty good.

Oh Yea, the Korg Legacy Collection Digital Edition seems to be a no brainer for the price.
I'm definately getting that.

Hi all,

I also have struggled over the years to find right sound samples and samplers to bring music to life. Parohonaughty I think you hit close to it when you mentioned a sample that didn't match the velocity curve for your controller. Here are two controller + sample accidental discoveries that illustrate how delicate this balance is.

1.I always had trouble with rock repeating 1/8 note bass lines. My nice weighted keyboard turned out to be the culprit. A cheap $89 unweighted keyboard is faster up and down and more closely approximates an up/down pick on the same note or an alternating finger bass sound.
2.After struggling to find string samples with the right amount of “swell” to them, I finally lucked into using a Yamaha WX wind controller paired with totally flat string samples with no swell at all. The swell up and down is easily controlled with the breath controller. I don't play wind instruments so let me descibe the exact signal chain. The Yamaha breath controller is on the same midi line as my keyboard. I hold the Yamaha in my left hand and hold one key down on it that lowers the sound 2 octaves (below range of string parts I am playing). On my Sound Canvas 8850 I manual exclude the low note that plays from the Yamaha. I play the strings voicings on the keyboard or even solo violin lines with my right hand. The breath controller breaths life into the sound including having to actually have a melodic phrase that starts and ends because one has to breath! After finished I just midi edit delete the low Yamaha note and then can use another string sample if I wish.

So you can see the lengths we go through to get that life into our music. Thanks to all for sharing your impressions of different sample libraries as I can't afford the time to explore all of them. What a great forum this is.

Sincerely, Tom Laskey

I haven't gone to the lengths (read expense) that you have, pharohoknaughty, but I couldn't agree more. I just like some of the sounds that my hardware midi sound modules have over my soft synths - particularly my Proteus 2000 and Roland XV-2020. I find that in auditioning single samples in the soft synths, they often sound great, but you put them in the mix and they do not work at all.

I possess Battery II, Garritan Pro Orchestra, and Dimension Pro. I have tried demos of many, many others. Of them all, I do find myself using Dimension Pro about as much as anything.

Pharohoknaughty.....for all that money you spent you could of bought a used full upright.

On the cheap I've found MDA piano to be amazianly good sounding for freeware....you really should check it out. You will be shocked at not only it's size (or lack of size) but the quality for it's size will have you wondering about some of these so called "romplers" out there.

Lets put it this way, this tiny freeware VST sounds vastly better than any of the Proteus pianos that all sound like butt and all my MC-909 pianos and Alesis QS6.2 pianos..which sound OK.....which is both surpriseing and upsetting.

For my piano's I only use multi sample CD's
Check out anything designed by Hans Anderson (sp?)...whom presently I believe is working for NI....this guy has put out some SERIOUS multi sampled piano stuff covering just about every well known pianos there are and some very VERY rare (priceless) pianos and IMHO sound better than anything else I've heard and I've been around the block (like you) with piano "sounds".

I agree with Tom that for multi sampled stuff synth style semi weighted keys will provide the best results unless you really want to manualy crossfade between every note (if you even have the option).....but thats just my opinion mainly because I cant stand fully weighted keys having started with synth action.
If you want a piano that sounds like a piano get something alittle more dedicated....buying a synth for the piano's to me seems alittle self defeating.
Hope I could help.

Wow! I didn't expect so many comments.

To clarify, I did not buy Sampletank or Colossus. I have several freinds in the area that have a nice budget, and I spent a fair time on their rigs to test these out. If I had paid $1,000 for Colossuss I would be really mad. The emporer has no clothes.

One friend also has Lounge Lizzard. I thought it was competent, but did not blow me away. If you like it, there is a good chance you have better taste than me.

For Epianos and clavinets, I am looking at this as my next purchase if the triton is weak. Their demo is impressive.

As far as the Dimension Pro pianos, they are (IMO) good but not great. I wanted my jaw to drop, but it didn't. I would not be surprised if many players would be very satisfied with the Dimension Pro pianos.

I don't look back on getting Dimension Pro, if for no other reason to stay up with the latest sound technology. Dimension Pro is meant to be more than a piano and violin playback system. My philosophy is to try to stay up with technology and modern music. I am 54 and most of my friends quit listening to new music and using modern tools in their 30's. I find the development of music totally interesting, and I buy and try to learn programs like Fruity Loops, Project 5 and Dimension Pro out of curiousity.


Gamble is right about the MDA piano. I tried it and it is very flexible and easy to control. I tried the demo of the similar B200 and it shows promise but is complex and I was just not convinced. Could very well be worth the $89 he wants. Both of these products allow you to change the charateristics of the piano.

Since I started this thread it occurs to me that the reason I like the Korg piano might be that they compressed it, besides tightly integrating the velocity curve to the keyboard. I should try running a compressor on the Dimension pro piano, and play around with the velocity curve settings on my controller, to see if this is what rings my chimes. It seems like the soft synth should have velocity curve settings, but I have not seen any. It is not convenient to have to change them on the controller.

As far as string swells, I like the sample to have zero swell and controll it with the swell (Volume) pedal. I got real used to this playing B3 in the old days. My complaint is that the samples in soft synths seem to have the swell built into the sample. For me it renders them useless.

Thanks for the interest in my comments, and the suggestions.

I have tried a lot of softsynths and piano options, too. I'm basically working in a studio setting these days, and my music is all over the map in style, so there isn't one answer to all situations. One piano sound I keep coming back to is the "Nice Steinway D" from the Piano Collection available for Sampletank. It has a nice balance, and seems to blend the best with most combinations I use. It can be purchased from eSoundz as a single download.

http://www.esoundz.com/details/viewDetails.php?ProductID=379

Two others that I think are good, are the Steinway included with GPO, and the Steinway included with Mirslov Philharmonik. Both of these are a little "richer" sounding.

I agree that expecting a synth to do good piano sounds is a little unrealistic, but IMHO these are some examples of some decent software based options that are available. PMI also has some nice stuff.

Also, Tassman 4 is a great softsynth.

For space and money reasons, I've gone entirely software... but I miss my old hardware synths: faster workflow, better sounds, less crashes...

I don't miss my living room being full of gear, however.

I guess I'll add my vote for the sound of hardware synths over soft. Softsynths haven't reached the level of great hardware...yet--especially when talking about non-analog hardware synths. I would love to see soft versions of Triton/Motif/Fantom as far as sound goes. I've tried many soft synths but few inspire me like the hardware "big boys". It goes to show that great playability in a synth far outweighs having gigabytes upon gigabytes of 24bit/96khz samples that don't cut it musically.

Some great softsynths I regularly use are Emulator X and RealGuitar.

All in all I don't think the synth engines in most software (like Colossus and Dimension) can compete with hardware engines. There are exceptions and I believe most of them consume huge amounts of CPU--which is logical.

I don't miss my living room being full of gear, however.

That is a critcal factor for space challenged home studios.

ORIGINAL: Mod Bod

I don't miss my living room being full of gear, however.

That is a critcal factor for space challenged home studios.

No joke. That's why my list of dedicated synth hardware is one module long. Once a softsynth come along that can match it, it's headed for eBay. I'm currently debating whether I even have room for my venerable DX7, even as just a controller.

ORIGINAL: Mod Bod

I don't miss my living room being full of gear, however.

That is a critcal factor for space challenged home studios.

Aswell as chords, and repair costs you incurr when you don't baby treat stuff!

What a surprising thread. I dumped my arranger keyboard last year and began collecting soft samples/libraries for the SOLE reason that one could get better sounds. Hardware UIs are clearly easier to navigate, and don't tax the CPU/RAM like samples do, but the sounds themselves are clearly much, much better if you get good stuff.

I 2nd GPO. For less than $250 it's an absolute steal. And I'm definitely going to get the Garritan Strad. (And probably GOS, which is on sale.)

And For acoustic guitar, are there any hard synths that even approach Real Guitar for tonal realism and clarity? If so, I'd like to hear the demo!

I'm especially surprised about your review of Colossus. I don't have this because of price, but it's been on my wish list for a while.

Granted, before I went soft, I only had a relatively cheap, entry-level board (Yamaha PSR 540), but I listened to a lot of demos, and I'm certain that if you only care about good sounds- instead of convenience or ease of use- software instruments are the way to go.

ORIGINAL: Quasar

What a surprising thread. I dumped my arranger keyboard last year and began collecting soft samples/libraries for the SOLE reason that one could get better sounds. Hardware UIs are clearly easier to navigate, and don't tax the CPU/RAM like samples do, but the sounds themselves are clearly much, much better if you get good stuff.

I 2nd GPO. For less than $250 it's an absolute steal. And I'm definitely going to get the Garritan Strad. (And probably GOS, which is on sale.)

And For acoustic guitar, are there any hard synths that even approach Real Guitar for tonal realism and clarity? If so, I'd like to hear the demo!

I'm especially surprised about your review of Colossus. I don't have this because of price, but it's been on my wish list for a while.

Granted, before I went soft, I only had a relatively cheap, entry-level board (Yamaha PSR 540), but I listened to a lot of demos, and I'm certain that if you only care about good sounds- instead of convenience or ease of use- software instruments are the way to go.

I agree with your post, software is the way to go.I think the sound quality is very good of alot of software, and if you compare any software synth to hardware synth in the same price range software would have it beat by faaaaaaaar! what i'm saying is hardware don't get good until you fork over alot of dollars and this is not the case with software. I own tassman 4 wich cost $289, i am very pleased with its richness,warmness, and playability.I also have Reason 3.0 wich probably offers sound creation possibilities and flexibility that most hardware synths can't match, and only dream of achieving.When this computer digital world came i truly knew someone above was thinking about me! I wrestled with low end hardware for too long,I am very pleased with the sounds of digital box, BUT also i understand the desires of others who are use to exact nature of traditional instruments sounds, and software synths come close but no exact emulation of traditional, I don't think that can be found yet.In the end i personally just look for what sounds good to my ears it does'nt have to exactly emulate every small nuance of traditional instruments performances, But even though the emulation is'nt perfect "yet" it's still a instrument in it's own right, and the software synth is part of the greatest instrument of all time "the computer", if you install the right programs the computer offers unlimited flexibility and creative potential. there has never been, nor will there ever be a instrument greater than the computer, and it is only growing more powerful and versatile with the passage of time. I'm outty...

ORIGINAL: harmony gardens

I have tried a lot of softsynths and piano options, too. I'm basically working in a studio setting these days, and my music is all over the map in style, so there isn't one answer to all situations. One piano sound I keep coming back to is the "Nice Steinway D" from the Piano Collection available for Sampletank. It has a nice balance, and seems to blend the best with most combinations I use. It can be purchased from eSoundz as a single download.

http://www.esoundz.com/details/viewDetails.php?ProductID=379

Two others that I think are good, are the Steinway included with GPO, and the Steinway included with Mirslov Philharmonik. Both of these are a little "richer" sounding.

I agree that expecting a synth to do good piano sounds is a little unrealistic, but IMHO these are some examples of some decent software based options that are available. PMI also has some nice stuff.

Also, Tassman 4 is a great softsynth.

I also end up going back to the Sonic Reality pianos I got from eSoundz quite a bit (for SampleTank). In fact, my default composing piano, "ShineWay Pno", sounds like the same sample set as "A Nice Steinway D", with different sampletank effects and EQ settings. A great "mix" piano.

The Sonic Reality Basses and Drum Kits are also really good. Specifically, the basses sit in a mix incredibly well - listening to them in isolation does not do them justice.

ORIGINAL: harmony gardens
I have tried a lot of softsynths and piano options, too. I'm basically working in a studio setting these days, and my music is all over the map in style, so there isn't one answer to all situations. One piano sound I keep coming back to is the "Nice Steinway D" from the Piano Collection available for Sampletank. It has a nice balance, and seems to blend the best with most combinations I use. It can be purchased from eSoundz as a single download.

Hi hg, glad you jumped into this. My go-to piano from SampleTank is "Concert Grand Piano ST" under ST2XL > Piano. It's full and well-defined over the entire range, with no weak samples in the set, and with decent expressiveness, too. It's probably best as a solo, but it works well blended with pads too.

Edit: This said, of course, for when I have a project in which I don't want to mess with the outboard piano module.

I'd be interested to know what type of sound card you are using.


There are differences in software and hardware synths. One possibility is the hardware synth could have better d/a converters.

Another one like you suggested is that hardware synth programmers spend more time tweaking their sounds than their software counter parts.


I usually do find that hardware sample playback synths seem to stand out more despite the small sample size.


Some things I found out though is a lot of hardware synths tweak their sounds not only at the program level but the sample level as well. I recall reading something on how Korg compress their samples. And Korg synths tend to be one of the synths where the sound really stand out. Roland is another example. Kurzweil however sounds dull to those two, but you can't say anything bad about Kurzweil pianos.

I'd bet most soft sample sets apply very little processing to the samples because they figure the end user would do that.

Hardware synths are different. Their job is to usually sell synths right at the store. So what it comes down to is Synth A must definitely stand out from Synth B. And I'd bet they go through about everything to acheive that end.

It is often hard to find a soft sample set at Guitar Center that's on display, but it seems those instruments are more sold by touting the number of gigabytes you are buying. Which means more emphasis on realism and probably uncoloured sound. I've heard somebody complement Dimension about it having an uncoloured sound.

I think eventually software counterparts will realize they should apply the same type of processing as their hardware counterparts.

ORIGINAL: wz061s
I also end up going back to the Sonic Reality pianos I got from eSoundz quite a bit (for SampleTank). In fact, my default composing piano, "ShineWay Pno", sounds like the same sample set as "A Nice Steinway D", with different sampletank effects and EQ settings. A great "mix" piano.

I might have to check those out. I wonder if my fav uses the same sample set too.

The Sonic Reality Basses and Drum Kits are also really good. Specifically, the basses sit in a mix incredibly well - listening to them in isolation does not do them justice.

Yes... good point. I don't find that SampleTank is cheesy, at least in general. Some samples and presets are weak, sure, but every package has weak spots - some more than others. SampleTank is actually a cut above a lot of softsynths in how much of it actually is useful. In fact, SampleTank / Sonic Reality is where I get my primary backdrop these days for drums, percussion, bass, pads, certain guitars, atmospheres, and "candy" strings. Heck, it's pretty loaded.

ORIGINAL: jlgrimes

....I'd bet most soft sample sets apply very little processing to the samples because they figure the end user would do that....

Or perhaps they are tryng to conseve CPU power?

Manipulating on the raw sample/note level is different than manipulating the performance (such as through plugins). I don't see why softsynth manufacturers would willingly follow such a principle. There must be some limitation softsynths are coming up against even though they have much more memory at their disposal.

For one thing, big-name companies have deep wallets to throw at serious sound and parameter design.

I also end up going back to the Sonic Reality pianos I got from eSoundz quite a bit (for SampleTank). In fact, my default composing piano, "ShineWay Pno", sounds like the same sample set as "A Nice Steinway D", with different sampletank effects and EQ settings. A great "mix" piano.

The Sonic Reality Basses and Drum Kits are also really good. Specifically, the basses sit in a mix incredibly well - listening to them in isolation does not do them justice.

If the Extreme does not cut it, I will re-investigate Sample Tank. Perhaps I did not give enough of a chance. Evidently the after market samples help it out.

People are commenting that the samples often sound different in the mix compared to solo. I know this is true, but I am not good enough to predict this kind of thing, so for me I need it to sound good solo.

My soundcard is a Delta 44 on the sampler computer and a Frontier Dakota/Montana on the DAW, with a Roland VM-7200 digital mixer.

Or perhaps they are tryng to conseve CPU power?

I was meaning at sample level where you wouldn't use any cpu power. The compression would be part of the sample.

Some people even talk about compressing drum sounds at sample level to make them louder. I guess that depends on what type of effect you want to achieve.

Compression is probably not the only effect that is being done. I'm pretty sure they are EQing things and such (cutting/boosting freqs here and there) too.

People also have become more accustomed to these keyboard sounds than the real thing too (esp if they listen to more pop compositions with 8 other instruments which usually means the sound has to be tweaked to sit more in the mix.).

ORIGINAL: pharohoknaughty
If the Extreme does not cut it, I will re-investigate Sample Tank. Perhaps I did not give enough of a chance. Evidently the after market samples help it out.

Definitely worth a run-through. Sonic Reality / Sonik Synth does expand it by quit a bit, as do their Sonic Refills. You can audition them on the site to get a flavor, and like HG pointed out, they now offer samples a-la-carte.

People are commenting that the samples often sound different in the mix compared to solo. I know this is true, but I am not good enough to predict this kind of thing, so for me I need it to sound good solo.

Don't feel bad. I'm not sure that anyone can predict this with perfect certainty 100% of the time. More often, it's a matter of laying a bed of tracks and finding sounds for each instrument that work well together. This is sort of a "second layer" to just picking sounds individually, and gets interesting (and sometimes tedious) as you search through all the combinations of sounds, presets, tweaks, and FX for the different tracks. It's also where a lot of "magic" can happen.

My soundcard is a Delta 44 on the sampler computer and a Frontier Dakota/Montana on the DAW, with a Roland VM-7200 digital mixer.

That setup shouldn't be limiting on your creativity. Did you mention what you're monitoring on?

ORIGINAL: jlgrimes

People also have become more accustomed to these keyboard sounds than the real thing too (esp if they listen to more pop compositions with 8 other instruments which usually means the sound has to be tweaked to sit more in the mix.).

All the more reason softsynth manufacturers need to put in the same effort toward their sample set as do the hardware manufacturers. Perhaps since storage is not a major issue, soft synth manufacturers can offer both the "natural sounding" samples AND the "candy-coated" ones.

As of now, if I want the candy-coating, I am better off with the hardware.

http://www.sightsea.com/music/singles/pencil_time.mp3

Giga Piano and everything else done in GigaStudio.

ORIGINAL: Steve_Karl

http://www.sightsea.com/music/singles/pencil_time.mp3

Giga Piano and everything else done in GigaStudio.

Link not working

ORIGINAL: WhyBe

ORIGINAL: jlgrimes
People also have become more accustomed to these keyboard sounds than the real thing too

All the more reason softsynth manufacturers need to put in the same effort toward their sample set as do the hardware manufacturers. Perhaps since storage is not a major issue, soft synth manufacturers can offer both the "natural sounding" samples AND the "candy-coated" ones.

As of now, if I want the candy-coating, I am better off with the hardware.

If they're willing, I'm game, but they have to weight the cost of doing so against the price they charge.

Regarding giving base sounds / instruments with presets using various types of polish, actually, I'm quite pleased by the effort folks like IK Multimedia / eSoundz (SampleTank/SonikSynth/SonicReality) and Applied Acoustics (Tassman) have made in doing just that very thing.

ORIGINAL: losguy

ORIGINAL: WhyBe

ORIGINAL: jlgrimes
People also have become more accustomed to these keyboard sounds than the real thing too

All the more reason softsynth manufacturers need to put in the same effort toward their sample set as do the hardware manufacturers. Perhaps since storage is not a major issue, soft synth manufacturers can offer both the "natural sounding" samples AND the "candy-coated" ones.

As of now, if I want the candy-coating, I am better off with the hardware.

If they're willing, I'm game, but they have to weight the cost of doing so against the price they charge.

Regarding giving base sounds / instruments with presets using various types of polish, actually, I'm quite pleased by the effort folks like IK Multimedia / eSoundz (SampleTank/SonikSynth/SonicReality) and Applied Acoustics (Tassman) have made in doing just that very thing.

Good to see you too Carlos!! Ive been slightly distracted lately, because my father had open heart surgery, and my tennant has been ill, and both needed my help. I also bought Conker's Bad Fur Day, for Nintendo 64 and got hooked, but I digress.

My old DX7 sits atop my old RD 300, and are still my controllers. I still have an M1, and an Alesis SR packed in boxes in my storage area, but all my other hardware stuff has gone down the road. Everything I have done in the last couple years has been an exploration of softsynths. It's no secret that I've been very happy with Sampletank and the sounds available through eSoundz, especially the group buys, which has made it possible for me to assemble an amazing library of voices. The new Sampletank 2.1 library upgrade is FINALLY available. The original Sampletank sounds were definately of uneven quality. That said, I have felt very comfortable leaving the hardware world behind for software. To me, the greatest sacrifice has been the time invested in learning how to manage a pc, and not the quality of the results.

I guess to me the premise that softsynths lack quality, reminds me of a time when you would have people defending record albums against CD's. While it's true that perhaps in some purist form, it could be argued that hardware has certain advantages, but weighed against the whole, I generally prefer softsynths, not only for the space they save, but also for the quality they can deliver. There is no question that softsynths have also greatly reduced my trips to the repair shops, and given me access to a things I could have never afforded in the past. Then again, the used market is flooded with great deals on this older hardware, as throngs of expirienced users shead their hardware based systems for DAW's. I guess that should tell us something. It's also nice to be able to have a pro level system, and still have money for more mundane needs, such as food and heat. I now happily use Sampletank, Tassman 4, Amplitube, FM7, Dimension, Philharmonik, and several other softsynths too numerous to mention, and never look back. It's worked well for me.

ORIGINAL: WhyBe

ORIGINAL: Steve_Karl

http://www.sightsea.com/music/singles/pencil_time.mp3

Giga Piano and everything else done in GigaStudio.

Link not working

Sorry.

Fixed now.

http://www.sightsea.com/music/singles/pencil_time_steve_karl.mp3

Steve_Karl - sounds good. This is the type of sound common with soft synths. Goes a long way in showing how having lots of storage and great sample layering/switching gives softsynths an advantage. However, I would like to hear some pop or hip-hop "flavor of the minute" type of music done entirely softsynth.

ORIGINAL: harmony gardens
Good to see you too Carlos!! Ive been slightly distracted lately, because my father had open heart surgery, and my tennant has been ill, and both needed my help. I also bought Conker's Bad Fur Day, for Nintendo 64 and got hooked, but I digress.

Sounds like you've had your hands full. Hope your father is OK. My father passed away last August, which was difficult but miraculously I found an inexplicable peace through it all. I'd had years to prepare for it since his stroke back in 1999, and we were able to close many loose ends in our relationship. Meanwhile I've been managing a thriving business, which being a startup keeps me plenty busy. About a week and a half ago I walked away from a serious car accident. Another miracle, You can follow that story over on this thread at The Other Place.

My old DX7 sits atop my old RD 300, and are still my controllers. I still have an M1, and an Alesis SR packed in boxes in my storage area, but all my other hardware stuff has gone down the road. Everything I have done in the last couple years has been an exploration of softsynths. It's no secret that I've been very happy with Sampletank and the sounds available through eSoundz, especially the group buys, which has made it possible for me to assemble an amazing library of voices. The new Sampletank 2.1 library upgrade is FINALLY available. The original Sampletank sounds were definately of uneven quality. That said, I have felt very comfortable leaving the hardware world behind for software. To me, the greatest sacrifice has been the time invested in learning how to manage a pc, and not the quality of the results.

I feel for ya. And I don't care how crowded my studio is, I'm making room for my old DX7.

I guess to me the premise that softsynths lack quality, reminds me of a time when you would have people defending record albums against CD's. While it's true that perhaps in some purist form, it could be argued that hardware has certain advantages, but weighed against the whole, I generally prefer softsynths, not only for the space they save, but also for the quality they can deliver. There is no question that softsynths have also greatly reduced my trips to the repair shops, and given me access to a things I could have never afforded in the past. Then again, the used market is flooded with great deals on this older hardware, as throngs of expirienced users shead their hardware based systems for DAW's. I guess that should tell us something. It's also nice to be able to have a pro level system, and still have money for more mundane needs, such as food and heat. I now happily use Sampletank, Tassman 4, Amplitube, FM7, Dimension, Philharmonik, and several other softsynths too numerous to mention, and never look back. It's worked well for me.

Couldn't agree more. I still have some hardware that could make some budding musician or vintage collector happy, too, someday. The top flight of modern softsynths are an incredible value, and offer lots of performance that's totally up-to-snuff by any standard. My list of fav plugs is similar to yours (a big part because of your group buy threads ), but unique as well. Oh, so many things yet to explore, once I get the time to try them.

ORIGINAL: WhyBe
However, I would like to hear some pop or hip-hop "flavor of the minute" type of music done entirely softsynth.

Not sure if it's your flavor or even if it's a "minute's worth" but I have a work in progress on my soundclick site called "Funkelele'" that is all softsynth and guitars(and of course, Ukelele). The synths are Tassman, Tassman 3, Dream Station, Dimension Pro, LiveSynth Pro. Definitely pop vein. If you stick around for the end all the ending synth and strings are Dimension Pro. I especially like the bell accents! Anyway...at least one example of "all softsynth" pop. I am still working on vocal tracks for this one...the song name is actually going to be called "Bring your Rain".

I'm currently debating whether I even have room for my venerable DX7, even as just a controller.

If I lived closer, I'd love to come take it off your hands (in case you lose the debate). It'd look just great next to my M1.

ORIGINAL: hornplayer

I'm currently debating whether I even have room for my venerable DX7, even as just a controller.

If I lived closer, I'd love to come take it off your hands (in case you lose the debate). It'd look just great next to my M1.

Now wait just a menizzle! Not having room in the studio is one thing, but unloading it is a horse of an entirely different color!

Anyway, you'll see your answer in my last post. Nice try, though!

P.S. Thanks for your interest!

ORIGINAL: losguy

ORIGINAL: hornplayer

I'm currently debating whether I even have room for my venerable DX7, even as just a controller.

If I lived closer, I'd love to come take it off your hands (in case you lose the debate). It'd look just great next to my M1.

Now wait just a menizzle! Not having room in the studio is one thing, but unloading it is a horse of an entirely different color!

Anyway, you'll see your answer in my last post. Nice try, though!

P.S. Thanks for your interest!

LMAO,,, yeah, it's hard to part with some things,,,, my DX7 was in the very first shippment that made it to Wisconsin. I paid something close to $1700 for it, and I still even have the breath controller. I can't sell that for the $250 it would bring, lol. Sometimes I miss my Korg DW8000, but then I load Tassman, and the pain goes away. It's like selling an old horse.

I also have my old Tascam 4 track in my parents basement. Every time I visit, my mom says, you want that big box downstairs?? I keep putting it off, cause I don't really have room for it here, but I don't want to sell it for what it would bring.

This is OT, for sure, but back in the day, bigger was better, and we used to actually haul around empty speaker cabinets to create the illusion of a huge wall of sound. You got more energy when your young. :)

I used to think I would sound like Rick Wakeman if I had a slew of keyboards surrounding me,,, then one day it hit me. If I wanted to sound like Rick Wakeman, it would take some practice, too. LOL

Fixed now.

http://www.sightsea.com/music/singles/pencil_time_steve_karl.mp3

An absolutley fine work.

The piano sounds great in the mix. This has helped me put my finger on the complaint I have.

I want the piano to sound like it is sitting in front of me, just like a grand piano sounds while you play it.

Your production, which sounds great, has the piano sounding like it is part of a combo.

By the way, your playing shows great dexterity amd musical skill.

This thread also got me thinking a little bit about softsynths vs. hardware synths.

I noticed the Fantom X6 sounds just tended to have more prescence on a whole than my softsynth sounds this was even the case when using custom samples.

So what I did was route a spidif connection from my Layla 3g to the input on the Fantom X.

Doing this gave my softsynths a more punchier sound typical to hardware synths such as the Roland.

This is kind of telling me d/a converters are making an even bigger difference than I thought.

Kontakt 2 the only synth and sampler you really ever need, ok nice to have Reactor 5 too.
PMI Pianos truly some of the best pianos
East West Symphonic Gold or Platinum XP Pro , all your instruments and solo instruments for complete orchesta realism
no need to really use eq just limiter and your good
Spectrosonics Atmosphere really only pads you will ever need
Spectrosonics Trilogy only basses you really ever need.

Now I am going to sound like a jerk here I never really post on this forum so here goes. If you think samples are poor etc then you need to learn how to program synths and read up on making sounds sound more alive^_* using fx.
Good luck

Sonar or whatever just sequencers that are tools to use.

ORIGINAL: pharohoknaughty

Fixed now.

http://www.sightsea.com/music/singles/pencil_time_steve_karl.mp3

An absolutley fine work.

The piano sounds great in the mix. This has helped me put my finger on the complaint I have.

I want the piano to sound like it is sitting in front of me, just like a grand piano sounds while you play it.

Your production, which sounds great, has the piano sounding like it is part of a combo.

By the way, your playing shows great dexterity amd musical skill.

Thank you.

Now I'll tell you the whole scoop on this song.
It's called "Pencil Time" ... reason being ... 98% of it was done in PRV with the pencil tool.
I didn't have a good weighted controller at the time, and although I've since purchaced a Yamaha
S90, most of my piano music is still trapped in my head because of still very limited technique.

The mix is a direct capture from GigaStudio and then a bit of mastering in Sound Forge,
no eq on the piano.

Giga piano is very easy to fit into a mix. In this tune it is at it's full stereo spread, but there are times that I
render it to Sonar in 2 mono tracks and then work with the placement a bit more.
Sometimes it gets a bit of eq also.

Steve

ORIGINAL: Steve_Karl
It's called "Pencil Time" ... reason being ... 98% of it was done in PRV with the pencil tool.
I didn't have a good weighted controller at the time, and although I've since purchaced a Yamaha
S90, most of my piano music is still trapped in my head because of still very limited technique.

Ouch! My finger hurts just thinking about this. This is a monumental effort.

Giga piano is very easy to fit into a mix. In this tune it is at it's full stereo spread, but there are times that I
render it to Sonar in 2 mono tracks and then work with the placement a bit more.

Since you didn't mention it, you can render to a single stereo track and use the surround panner (in stereo) or GPan to accomplish the same thing. Key emphasis on "same"... it's just a matter of taste, personal interest, and what you're used to. But this stereo-panning trick works wonders for properly placing stereo softsynths and existing stereo tracks without having to split or re-render.

ORIGINAL: losguy


Ouch! My finger hurts just thinking about this. This is a monumental effort.

I've gotten pretty quick in PRV since version 3.x <G>

Thanks for the tip on the panning!

Steve

ORIGINAL: Steve_Karl
I've gotten pretty quick in PRV since version 3.x <G>

Evidently. But if you don't mind, I think I'll just keep polishing my keyboard chops! But I really do like PRV, especially that pencil tool... for editing, though! (OK, maybe for those really wild runs that I'm too lazy to get perfect before I forget the rest of the song...)

Thanks for the tip on the panning!

Glad to help, Steve. I learned about it right here in this very same awesome forum.