LockedReaper posing a serious threat to sonar?

I assume most of you here know about the new free DAW - Reaper. Apparently, many reaper fans love this proggie to death!

To me, reaper is the fastest updated software i've ever seen. There are sometimes 3 updates in a single day! Its insane!

So far, i'm impressed with reaper, but now a question springs to mind - is reaper a threat to sonar? I mean, what does it NOT do that sonar can? (Apart from advanced midi functionality that justin is working on for reaper...)

For those who dont know reaper yet, www.reaper.fm

you mean there's something free for the iKleptos to steal? that's awesome.
this looks like it barely has the functionality of home studio .. i don't see this
as much of a threat to Sonar.

Here's a little writeup on the lead developer. You may have heard of him. He developed a little program that you may have heard of

...WinAmp.



http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/5938320/the_worlds_most_dangerous_geek/

-mr moon

...no. I don't think it's going to be a threat. If nothing else, there's no way they can afford to update and add new features AND support it professionally at no cost.

However, depending on how it evolves, it might push/inspire Cakewalk to be quicker and/or more innovative with Sonar design. That is always a good thing. I think even Cake would agree.

Agreed, it is great to see something for free and their efforts are only positive to the industry.

It is not for sale because it is not even close the level that anyone would pay money for it. Hopefully one day it will get there.

AXE

this looks like it barely has the functionality of home studio .. i don't see this

Post FX recording.

is reaper a threat to sonar?

It's a threat to all audio applications. Just give it some time.

this looks like it barely has the functionality of home studio .. i don't see this

More flexible routing than SONAR w/true sidechaining abilities.

this looks like it barely has the functionality of home studio .. i don't see this

Support for changing recording sources on the fly

this looks like it barely has the functionality of home studio .. i don't see this

Support for 64-bit double precision plug-ins


Reaper looks darn fine.

have a good one
3Eo

3 updates per day? Sounds like a nightmare of problems.

ORIGINAL: Infinite5ths

...no. I don't think it's going to be a threat. If nothing else, there's no way they can afford to update and add new features AND support it professionally at no cost.

However, depending on how it evolves, it might push/inspire Cakewalk to be quicker and/or more innovative with Sonar design. That is always a good thing. I think even Cake would agree.

Yo dude, the guy was worth more than a hundred million dollars a couple years back ...all he does is develop software, hang out, and do whatever else he feels like. He can afford to update it however long he wants to, he's not crippled by economics or financial concerns like the other companies, including our beloved Cakewalk, are. If anyone is going to rewrite the books, this is the guy to do it!

...Not to mention the even less strict licensing for the full version of the product: Nag-free, cripple-free, fully-functional shareware ...you pay for it *only* if it makes you feel like paying for it.

IMHO, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this product.

-mr moon

Well it's got quite a way to go before it can compare to Sonar HS 4 in all areas across the board. SHS4 is quite powerful and actually not missing much from Sonar 4 plus it has a few things form Sonar 5. That being said there are some things about Reaper that work better than Sonar. It may be a while but I do think Reaper will be a major contender in the DAW arena. Oh yea... and it'll fit on a floppy disk.

Bill

Yes....but when he has 1,000,000+ users (as Cakewalk does), and an application as big and complex, is he gonna be inclined (or even able) to support it like Cakewalk does? ...not without a company. And companies take money to pay employees. Maybe he won't have to charge for it, or maybe it will be cheap. Perhaps he'll go the Juno/AIM route and have advertisements buried in the GUI somewhere.

The article you posted proves one thing: He doesn't like to sit on one project/idea for too long before he gets bored. Folks who work with DAW software seriously need a stable and long-term development plan without dramatic changes every 3 months. I can't see this guy doing that -- not if the RollingStone article is any indication... He basically said this himself in the article. He likes to be on the cutting edge. That is GREAT. But he's not going to consistently compete head-to-head with an established DAW developer. What will be sad is if he runs people out of business, then fails to develop a product that continues to meet peoples' needs long-term. He doesn't seem to want to do that, so I'm betting this will be good for everybody. But you never know...


One more thought: His business model seems to be built around a short-term cult following -- fueled by his cutting-edge development of low-cost/no-cost software. That will always work -- for short periods of time. I've yet to see it really last for a long time. Usually the product starts GREAT and cheap/free and gets worse and/or more expensive over time. Examples: Juno, AIM, Napster, ZoneAlarm, etc. The exception to this rule seems to be Mozilla/FireFox/Thunderbird. But I'm pretty sure they get funding from other sources. In any event, one only has to look at the slow-going but trustworthy development of ProTools to see that there is a userbase for that kind of product -- which is developed by a big, stable (at least by outward appearances) company.

ORIGINAL: sambasevam
I assume most of you here know about the new free DAW - Reaper. Apparently, many reaper fans love this proggie to death!

But if its free that means you can't steal it. Bummer.

It's only free while it's in beta according to their site. I was going to give the beta a go, but I read something somewhere that hinted at the betas expiring, so I didn't bother.

Have any Reaper users bumped their computer's date up a year or two to see if it expires? I wish I could remember where I read it!

ORIGINAL: Infinite5ths

Yes....but when he has 1,000,000+ users (as Cakewalk does), and an application as big and complex, is he gonna be inclined (or even able) to support it like Cakewalk does? ...not without a company. And companies take money to pay employees. Maybe he won't have to charge for it, or maybe it will be cheap. Perhaps he'll go the Juno/AIM route and have advertisements buried in the GUI somewhere.

The article you posted proves one thing: He doesn't like to sit on one project/idea for too long before he gets bored. Folks who work with DAW software seriously need a stable and long-term development plan without dramatic changes every 3 months. I can't see this guy doing that -- not if the RollingStone article is any indication...

I think one of the reasons he's made so many changes to the program in such a short time is that he listens to the folks who make software requests and/or bug reports and tackles the problems head on rather than ignoring them. I speak (not literally, but figuratively) from personal experience on this one.

Anywho, as someone already pointed out, the program fits on a frickin' floppy disk. The latest Reaper download was 1.06 MB for the full program. The FULL program. Frickin' blows my mind....

Personally, I don't use Reaper as my full-time software ...yet. But who knows what the future may hold.



-mr moon

Yup...but how can he personally field 1,000+ calls per day? ...can't happen. Eventually it will get too big to be a one-man job. That's where the bigger and more long-term business models come into play. I don't think that is his area of interest. The RS article indicates that he works AGAINST that kind of model. You've got to have both types of developers.

ORIGINAL: OldGeezer

It's only free while it's in beta according to their site. I was going to give the beta a go, but I read something somewhere that hinted at the betas expiring, so I didn't bother.

Nope!! Wrong!!

Here's a quote from the Reaper homepage:
"REAPER versions 0.4-0.99 are freeware, but starting with version 1.0 the license will change to very reasonably priced (with amateur and professional rates/support) uncrippled nag-free shareware, supporting unexpiring full functionality in unregistered form."

Found here: http://www.cockos.com/reaper/

I also thought they were going to cripple it, but Justin assured me that they will not be doing so in any way.

-mr moon

ORIGINAL: Infinite5ths

Yup...but how can he personally field 1,000+ calls per day? ...can't happen. Eventually it will get too big to be a one-man job. That's where the bigger and more long-term business models come into play. I don't think that is his area of interest. The RS article indicates that he works AGAINST that kind of model. You've got to have both types of developers.

He has other folks helping him out already, so it's already not a one-man job. I think it's just frickin' awesome that he's doing something like this, and I would not count him out. It will be very interesting to see what becomes of this little project of his, methinks!

-mr moon

Mr Moon! That's what I read! lol

The statement the V1 would be reasonably priced, uncrippled and unexpiring led me to deduce that the betas do expire.

Maybe I'm reading too much between the lines?

Edit: Never mind....I missed the "shareware" part. But would the average amateur pay the "amateur rates" when there's an uncrippled shareware version?

We'll see... Having read the article about him, I hope that I never have to use any of his software as my sole professional tool for ANYTHING. ...but that is just my opinion.

ORIGINAL: OldGeezer

Mr Moon! That's what I read! lol

The statement the V1 would be reasonably priced, uncrippled and unexpiring led me to deduce that the betas do expire.

Maybe I'm reading too much between the lines?

I brought up the same issue, as I also thought the same way, and was assured that they will not expire. I just hope the project keeps going with the same momentum that it has had up until this point.

-mr moon

Well you've convinced me. I'm gonna give it a try. If I can actually plug Kontakt 2 into this thing as a VST and send program-changes, I'm gonna giggle like a schoolgirl.

ORIGINAL: Infinite5ths

We'll see... <snip> ...but that is just my opinion.

Yup, I guess so...

-mr moon

I'm going to give it a try. I LOVE my Sonar, but I've always used other stuff, too.

Some days are Les Paul days; some days are Rickenbacker days... y'know?

ORIGINAL: Infinite5ths

We'll see... Having read the article about him, I hope that I never have to use any of his software as my sole professional tool for ANYTHING. ...but that is just my opinion.

Why?! After reading the article, the guy strikes me as being The Anti-Gates. I don't care what he does...he's ok in my books.

hehe.

very interesting the thoughts presented here.

I signed up just to respond.

Yes. It is a threat to a certain demographic of Sonar, those who wish to do audio quickly and efficiently. having used Sonar, I say this isnt the case with it. (just my opinion, no need to flame)

Yes, it has several updates. 35 in the past month or so.

why?

because the dev listens to the users. most of those updates contain feature requests. not just bug fixes.

The midi features are ever-expanding, and post 1.0 expect to see alot of improvement. I think many here are likely ignorant of the full feature set this program provides. Perhaps you would like to stay this way, lest destroy your happy little worlds ;)

i suggest if you want more information,

visit this thread

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=138133&highlight=

or visit the REAPER forum

http://www.cockos.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=19

ORIGINAL: OldGeezer

Well you've convinced me. I'm gonna give it a try. If I can actually plug Kontakt 2 into this thing as a VST and send program-changes, I'm gonna giggle like a schoolgirl.

I would give it a go and see what happens. I am not sure about the midi implementation of this yet. But im sure its on its way. If you are really interested, you can always post up at the forums i mentioned above.

ORIGINAL: mr. moon

ORIGINAL: OldGeezer

Mr Moon! That's what I read! lol

The statement the V1 would be reasonably priced, uncrippled and unexpiring led me to deduce that the betas do expire.

Maybe I'm reading too much between the lines?

I brought up the same issue, as I also thought the same way, and was assured that they will not expire. I just hope the project keeps going with the same momentum that it has had up until this point.

-mr moon

it willl DEFINETLY not expire.

ORIGINAL: .

3 updates per day? Sounds like a nightmare of problems.

i dont recall ever having 3 updates in a day, but the frequency of updates actually shows the developer is really working hard on it, and listening to the userbase.

ORIGINAL: three_eyed_otter

this looks like it barely has the functionality of home studio .. i don't see this

Post FX recording.

is reaper a threat to sonar?

It's a threat to all audio applications. Just give it some time.

this looks like it barely has the functionality of home studio .. i don't see this

More flexible routing than SONAR w/true sidechaining abilities.

this looks like it barely has the functionality of home studio .. i don't see this

Support for changing recording sources on the fly

this looks like it barely has the functionality of home studio .. i don't see this

Support for 64-bit double precision plug-ins


Reaper looks darn fine.

have a good one
3Eo

indeed.

those who think that this FREE app doesnt have the functions of Home studio should probably take another look, also considering there are a few features that are being held off for the 1.0 release

(which will be uncrippled shareware)

ORIGINAL: axe

\

It is not for sale because it is not even close the level that anyone would pay money for it. Hopefully one day it will get there.

AXE

no offense, but this is a very ignorant statement.

i suggest you look into the feature set, use it a bit, and then come back and back up that type of argument.

aHa! jason! I was looking for you dude!

You registered just to enter this topic!? Nice!!!


Hear hear. Jason's one of "them".

Just because something is free we can not assume that it may be a toy.Even Reaper is priced at 25% of other softwares every musician will give a try.If every one starts feeling good about reaper few things may happen.
1.reaper developer will be forced to make the company big and the business serious.
2.Other software manufacturers have to bring down their prices.
3.Big companies may buy reaper and dump it so that their brand name will survive.
R.Chandrasekhar.

Next, lets wait for pipeline. With him, the reaper's side of defense army would be complete. Sonar folks would truly have a tough time.

Chandrashekar sir, your music is nice! Enjoying the sax piece now!

If you want, we can share our yahoo IDs to chat. I'm from india as well (chennai actually). :)

Reaper stole my Motu drivers. I had to kick it's tail and 86 the program to get my Audio/Midi back. Don't ask me? That is what just happened........................

What I mean is once I installed Reaper. Neither SAW nor Sonar could find my interface (Reaper could, when directed). I removed the program and all is normal. Did I check all settings in all 3 programs and Motu's CP? Yes, what does my cat look stupid? I investigated and no apparent reason. Uninstalled and all is normal????...............

try the latest .996 version. :)

When i started the post, we were in version .995 now its in .996

Thats what i call an update. Fast, gets many requests fulfilled. Makes folks happy.

I tried loading Kontakt 2 into Reaper and the GUI can't fit in the allotted space. I searched the forum, and as of July 23rd, it still has issues with K2.

I'll keep checking back to see what the updates bring though...it looks mighty good.

Edit: Could be the latest version can do it, and I can't because my ancient LCD monitor only does 1024x768 max?

Edit 2: Gawd I'm an idiot! I found the "float" option which gives me the full GUI.

I DLed .996. I think it was that fancy ASIO thing that got me.....................

Hi Sambasevam,I didn't see your e-mail in your profile.Since I am also from chennai,here is my tel.no.24811498.You can contact me anytime.
R.Chandrasekhar.

Well, I used a lot of free and $40-$60 apps for recording, and found that you get what I pay for. No looking back for me.

Reaper is looking like it's gonna end up just where I'd like sonar to be.

Mean, Lean and efficient - They're going at this with the right mentality if you ask me.

Now they just need a proper metronome ;)

Kind regards

Dave Rich

One more thought: His business model seems to be built around a short-term cult following -- fueled by his cutting-edge development of low-cost/no-cost software. That will always work -- for short periods of time. I've yet to see it really last for a long time. Usually the product starts GREAT and cheap/free and gets worse and/or more expensive over time.

I'm not too sure about that with this guy.

I started using Winamp whan it first came out.. 1996? 98? So long ago... don't remember. It's STILL my preferred A/V playback program. It's STILL free, it STILL has a tiny footprint, and it STILL works flawlessly - although it supports many, many new features and video to boot. IMO, it blows away Windows Media Player all-around.

That's funny...I never liked it -- not even a little. For on-they-fly listening I just use my Nero player. For everything else I load Sonar/SoundForge/Vegas or just playing the CD on my full-size stereo.

A quote from the website:

"REAPER versions 0.xx are available as freeware. When we release v1.0 the license will change to shareware, but you can freely use REAPER versions 0.1-0.99 for free. Head on over to the download page to grab a copy! "


So eventually it won't be free. Looks cool for freeware, though .As far as being a serious threat to Cakewalk, I think the jury is still out on that one. Wasn't the original version of Traktion given as freeware?


Tony
www.myspace.com/livesayrox

ORIGINAL: daverich
Mean, Lean and efficient - They're going at this with the right mentality if you ask me.

Reaper is the epitome, of the mean, lean and efficient DAW. It is a self contained app with a small footprint (about 1.07MB) and does not rely on being on the C drive, in order to operate. In fact, you can install it on a portable thumb drive and run it from there. How cool is that! You can carry around your DAW, on your keychain, the ultimate portable DAW device. Pop it into any computer, launch it and start recording and mixing.

Just downloaded .96 ...
I dig the ripple editing, and its skinability ... looks like a cool program with lots of potential. I wonder if the key is if and when it will get bought out by a bigger company like, say Korg?

ORIGINAL: tonester

A quote from the website:

"REAPER versions 0.xx are available as freeware. When we release v1.0 the license will change to shareware, but you can freely use REAPER versions 0.1-0.99 for free. Head on over to the download page to grab a copy! "


So eventually it won't be free. Looks cool for freeware, though .As far as being a serious threat to Cakewalk, I think the jury is still out on that one. Wasn't the original version of Traktion given as freeware?


Tony
www.myspace.com/livesayrox

Yo Tony,

Please read one of my posts from the first page of this thread for the actual quote from Reaper's main website about the software licensing and such, as your post is not completely accurate. The deal is, even when Reaper is no longer "free" you can still download it, and use it for free ...It will be 100% functional, nag-free and cripple-free, even if you choose not to pay for it. On the Reaper forums, Justin said he won't go after anyone for using the "non-free" version and not paying for it, as most folks who decide not to pay for it won't have any money for him to try to get (via lawsuit) anyways.

-mr moon

Just downloaded .96 ...
I dig the ripple editing, and its skinability ... looks like a cool program with lots of potential. I wonder if the key is if and when it will get bought out by a bigger company like, say Korg?

I take that back ... ripple editing is AWESOME! what a great shortcut ... i want that in Sonar 6.

Wow,,, this is an impressive effort! I'll be watching this to see how it developes.

Heeeeey! What's "ripple editing'?

No it's not a threat !
It's like the CM Studio !
Free stuff is cool !
but I like my Sonar
I think this will weed out some
but Sonar is way ahead .

Go to pro tools and start a 'Reaper is PT demise" thread

Vegas has Ripple Editing. It's nice....but you have to be careful with it. For full-timeline edits, it has huge benefits over the Delete + Delete Hole option in Sonar.

At the moment Reaper is not good enough. But I am sure it might develop into something very powerful, so I will keep watching it.

One of the reasons for its potential is that being new software it has no established users who are conservative and will revolt against changes in their workflow. Particularly Cubase is burdened down by this phenomenon, and so a lot of things has to be executed in funny ways. (Nevertheless, I actually use Cubase more than Sonar).

ORIGINAL: three_eyed_otter

Post FX recording.

More flexible routing than SONAR w/true sidechaining abilities.

Support for changing recording sources on the fly

Support for 64-bit double precision plug-ins

Reaper looks darn fine.

have a good one
3Eo

firstly, i think it's really cool that someone is investing their time and energies
into creating a shareware product such as reaper. it could be disruptive, we'll
have to see. you gotta wonder why people do this sort of thing?

i was reading the user manual and making note of features. i don't doubt it
has unique features .. most every DAW application does. while it looks very
promising, and is certainly in the "lean and mean" category, i still contend it
has some growing up to do in order to match the functionality of entry level
DAW applications such as HomeStudio. the I/O routing is elegant for sure.
some i would likely never use (such as postFx recording).

for my usage, it's waveform and midi editing capabilities are too rudamentory ...
but, given time, it may well have the basics.

jeff

ORIGINAL: mr. moon

ORIGINAL: tonester

A quote from the website:

"REAPER versions 0.xx are available as freeware. When we release v1.0 the license will change to shareware, but you can freely use REAPER versions 0.1-0.99 for free. Head on over to the download page to grab a copy! "


So eventually it won't be free. Looks cool for freeware, though .As far as being a serious threat to Cakewalk, I think the jury is still out on that one. Wasn't the original version of Traktion given as freeware?


Tony
www.myspace.com/livesayrox

Yo Tony,

Please read one of my posts from the first page of this thread for the actual quote from Reaper's main website about the software licensing and such, as your post is not completely accurate. The deal is, even when Reaper is no longer "free" you can still download it, and use it for free ...It will be 100% functional, nag-free and cripple-free, even if you choose not to pay for it. On the Reaper forums, Justin said he won't go after anyone for using the "non-free" version and not paying for it, as most folks who decide not to pay for it won't have any money for him to try to get (via lawsuit) anyways.

-mr moon

Okay. I see. But.....does that apply to future patches and upgrades? I mean, I'm sure the point is moot, since how much could he possibly charge for an update to a freeware program? Eventually the costs of developing and web hosting will probably require some sort of fee, like in the case of WinAmp. The basic program is free, but the Pro version costs $.

I'm sure that this program will suit a certain percentage of the population, sort of like how Audacity is to WAV editors. It's a great freeware program, but probably will not pose any serious threat to the likes of Sound Forge and Wavelab.

Tony
www.myspace.com/livesayrox

ORIGINAL: tonester

Okay. I see. But.....does that apply to future patches and upgrades? I mean, I'm sure the point is moot, since how much could he possibly charge for an update to a freeware program? Eventually the costs of developing and web hosting will probably require some sort of fee, like in the case of WinAmp. The basic program is free, but the Pro version costs $.

I'm sure that this program will suit a certain percentage of the population, sort of like how Audacity is to WAV editors. It's a great freeware program, but probably will not pose any serious threat to the likes of Sound Forge and Wavelab.

Tony
www.myspace.com/livesayrox

Hi Tony,

Justin reports that it will remain free as long as the sky is blue, the grass is green, and the water flows, etc., and so on...

("Little Big Man" reference)

Sonar is my go-to application at this point, but I may give Reaper a serious try once it goes to the "full" versions.

-mr moon

ORIGINAL: Jason Brian Merrill

ORIGINAL: .

3 updates per day? Sounds like a nightmare of problems.

i dont recall ever having 3 updates in a day, but the frequency of updates actually shows the developer is really working hard on it, and listening to the userbase.

It also means the QA effort behind the scenes is suspect. There is simply no way on earth that a program like Reaper can be completely retested in a single day. To test it multiple times per day is even less possible. Sounds to me like it's being updated and only smoketested. And not only that, but the developer appears to be doing the coding and the testing. Talk about the fox guarding the hen-house. Of course, as a Beta, this might be acceptable to users. Once it comes out of Beta, however, I imagine updates will be delivered much less frequently simply due to the amount of time it will take to test it.

It also means the QA effort behind the scenes is suspect. There is simply no way on earth that a program like Reaper can be completely retested in a single day. To test it multiple times per day is even less possible. Sounds to me like it's being updated and only smoketested. And not only that, but the developer appears to be doing the coding and the testing. Talk about the fox guarding the hen-house. Of course, as a Beta, this might be acceptable to users. Once it comes out of Beta, however, I imagine updates will be delivered much less frequently simply due to the amount of time it will take to test it.

You guys are funny. REAPER is in beta, and will presumably get a complete final shakedown when Jason locks down the V1 code and features.

The furious rate of changes keeps the beta community engaged and submitting feature requests - and to some extent they help provide the QC function. I see it as an iterative prototyping model.

I'm not sure that REAPER will meet my specific needs at this point, but I love the routing flexibility, soft synth host support, and tiny footprint. What's not to like?

Finally, I don't think you should be comparing REAPER to Sonar until the final feature set is established. More to the point, I don't expect a commercial studio would be using a shareware product anyway. That type of product doesn't require that the company incur the costs of a fully-staffed support team. So they don't.

My guess is that Jason really wants this product to fly under the radar until everyone knows that there is a real alternative to the large DAW products with a rich feature set and a grass-roots user community.

From what I see, Jason's doing this because it's what he chooses to do with his time - I suspect the business model is not really a factor.

Dan Ash
White Plains, NY

You Reaper folks are getting as bad as Moonies. Do you plan to stake out a spot at Airports and pass out CD-Rs at the doorways? One visit to the forum and I was totally creeped out by the conquer the world rhetoric.

What good did it do for you to discuss how spaming all the commercial software sites would leave a nasty taste in everyones mouth, if you all just went and did it anyway? Sorry guys. I'm not buying it. Even if it's free.

Didn't Linux do it for you? Is the thrill gone? Maybe it's time for a mass exodus to Montana? Grow a crop of dental floss or something. I envision naked dances around a bon fire.

Mmmm - naked dancing :-)